Budget/Beginner Sound Rig

[cheeseandachallenge]

First up, apologies for posting a fair bit recently asking for help... The learning curve with some of this stuff is quite steep...

So I have searched and read a lot, but am finding it hard to apply all this information to my needs.

I am looking at getting my first audio rig, and need to know what is nessecery, what set up I need and how much I should expect to pay for low-price/good quality (for the price). I was initially hoping to be spending around $500 tops, but it's dawning on me that this may be unrealistic?

My media studies (basically film class in high school) teacher got a new boom + mic (think it was Rode, but wouldn't really remember) which I had running directly in the camera - and the sound was not noticably better. It may have been as it was running directly in the camera, my technique, my post-production, etc.. But his was a relatively pricey set up (granted, it was only mic and boom pole) for what was incredibly amateur work - it may have been his lack in knowledge of what to buy, or maybe my lack of knowledge in using the equipment.

If anyone can help set me on the right path, that would be great.

Thanks

 

[cheeseandachallenge]

Pull out the calculator, add up the cost of separate components and then compare to the kit price. BTW, it is really worth calling them if you intend on making a "substantial" purchase. Believe it or not, they will sometimes do nice package deals. I like dealing with them because I have never had a problem with returns, their staff is knowledgeable, and I get good customer support.

The price difference seems marginal. I live in New Zealand, so it's not really that easy for me to call them. Do you think they'd negotiate via email?

You want closed-back headphones; you want to block out as much of the "outside world" as you possibly can. Pro sound mixers and boom-ops have even taken to using custom made headphones built into ear protectors like those used on pistol ranges or flight decks.

Noise canceling is the absolute wrong thing to do; you WANT to hear the extraneous noise so you can figure out how to eliminate it as best you can.

Sorry, I didn't really think about what i was saying - i meant they aren't really designed to block out outside noise. So I'm guessing using good earphones with earmuffs to block out external noise isn't good enough?

I'm not "frothing at the mouth and screaming." [snip]

I am willing to learn, and realise I will never really be that great at sound (well, unless I have a change of heart and find it really interesting) - what are the starting points in terms of learning?

 

[Alcove Audio]

The price difference seems marginal. I live in New Zealand, so it's not really that easy for me to call them. Do you think they'd negotiate via email?

I have no idea, but it's always worth a try - the answer is always no if you don't ask....

Sorry, I didn't really think about what i was saying - i meant they aren't really designed to block out outside noise. So I'm guessing using good earphones with earmuffs to block out external noise isn't good enough?

Correct. You ALWAYS want to listen, and listen carefully.

I am willing to learn, and realise I will never really be that great at sound (well, unless I have a change of heart and find it really interesting) - what are the starting points in terms of learning?

Start with "The Location Sound Bible" by Ric Viers.

 

[rayw]

You learn all this stuff so that you know exactly what you're talking about when you're frothing at the mouth and screaming about how everyone around you is incompetent

This is the same boat I've found myself in in other professional scenarios.

It seems because others only know about 80% of their own job that I need to know 100% of everyone else's job so that I may more effectively direct them.


If some DP I've hired says I gotta shoot a bright day @ 1.8f, w/ a shutter speed of 1/4 to achieve a dark look I KNOW he's full of BS.
If an actor insists she's supposed to deliver the scripted lines the best way she sees fit I KNOW she's full of BS.
If an audio guy is telling me that the best way to record exterior audio conversation is by using a hypercardioid mic I KNOW he's full of BS.


I feel like I gotta be AT LEAST conversationally intelligent when directing others to do their jobs.
So, I learn all that I can until I just can't cram any more cr@p in my pea brain.
At that point I gotta rely on the expertise of others - but I still gotta know what can and can't be done.

 

[PaulGriffith]

This is the same boat I've found myself in in other professional scenarios.

It seems because others only know about 80% of their own job that I need to know 100% of everyone else's job so that I may more effectively direct them.


If some DP I've hired says I gotta shoot a bright day @ 1.8f, w/ a shutter speed of 1/4 to achieve a dark look I KNOW he's full of BS.
If an actor insists she's supposed to deliver the scripted lines the best way she see fit I KNOW she's full of BS.
If an audio guy is telling me that the best way to record exterior audio conversation is by using a hypercardioid mic I KNOW he's full of BS.


I feel like I gotta be AT LEAST conversationally intelligent when directing others to do their jobs.
So, I learn all that I can until I just can't cram any more cr@p in my pea brain.
At that point I gotta rely on the expertise of others - but I still gotta know what can and can't be done.

I agree, not just so you can point out what's wrong but so you can effectively communicate.

I whole haeartedly believe that the best leaders understand enough about the positions they are leading (ex: a producer or director leading a makeup artist, sound mixer and DP) that they know how to properly communicate vision AND what's reasonable to ask for. You still hire people that are better than you at their specific tasks, but you since you now how to talk the effectiveness jumps through the roof.

 

[DDK]

Since my quote seems to have been misinterpreted a few times I feel the need to explain it.

There's a stereotypical image of a director who is a control freak and thinks they're better than everyone else around them. My joke was aimed at myself as if to say that I'm learning all of this stuff and paying all this money (in response to Alcove's comment) in order to become that person.

 

[rayw]

I think we all got that it was self directed and facetious.

There's a stereotypical image of a director who is a control freak and thinks they're better than everyone else around them.

I believe most rookie directors probably are control freaks, emphasis on "freaks."

If you watch and learn enough you can probably skip a lot of the freaking, and just understand what are the most economically effective ways to get the shots, audio, and project done in a sensible amount of time according to each production's budget and time constraints.

Nothing's going to be perfect. Certainly not an entire production, even if you're doing it 100% solo from stem to stern.

Additionally, I believe a good (AKA mature) director can maintain control w/o freaking out as he/she accepts a sensible amount of compromise on a sensible number of variables and elements.

 

[DDK]

I think we all got that it was self directed and facetious.

Yeah, but I'm being careful around here not to shit people up the wall with my attempts at humour. Unfortunately my sense of humour is ingrained into my very nature and although I find myself to be utterly hilarious, most everyone else doesn't. I've burned more bridges than I can count in this manner, especially on the internet where tone of voice and mannerisms don't translate through text.

So I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't having a go at anyone. Well, other than myself

 

[Alcove Audio]

There's a saying from Mark Twain that was widely used by the military in WWII that perhaps you should heed...

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool
than to open it and remove all doubt."​

You are writing conversationally which does not translate sell to forum posts. You've already stated that your sense of humor is misunderstood, so maybe you should very, very carefully vet your posts before hitting "Submit."

 

[DDK]

There's a saying from Mark Twain that was widely used by the military in WWII that perhaps you should heed...

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool
than to open it and remove all doubt."​

You are writing conversationally which does not translate sell to forum posts. You've already stated that your sense of humor is misunderstood, so maybe you should very, very carefully vet your posts before hitting "Submit."

Alternatively people could stop being overly sensitive. For instance, I choose not to take offence even though you're essentially saying I'm an idiot through that above quote.

Life's too short to take it seriously.

 

[cheeseandachallenge]

Hey guys, this is getting a little out of hand and both sides seem to be overreacting a little bit. Simple misunderstanding, leave it at that - it's just off topic and unconstructive now. This topic was helpful for me figuring out some stuff (and presumably will be to future people reading some stuff), so let's not undermine the actual use of the thread. Thanks y'all *prepares to be shredded for playing mod*


Thanks everyone for the helpful posts - is there anywhere I could try and cut down my costs with the setup AA recommended, or..?

 

[Alcove Audio]

is there anywhere I could try and cut down my costs with the setup AA recommended, or..?

If you absolutely must go ultra-low budget:

Tascam DR-05 - $100 or Tascam DR-07mkII - $125 (I've never used them, but some of my peers like the Olympus LS-10S - $150 and the LS-14 - $200)

Rode VideoMic - $150 or Rode VideoMic Pro - $250 (The VMP has a hotter output level and, on paper, better frequency response)

There are various VideoMic kits which include wind protection or boom-pole and/or extension cables. You could even plug the VideoMic Pro directly into your camera, although I do not recommend that at all.

The big issue with going in this direction (high impedance) is that you are now vulnerable to RF, EM and other sorts of interference. You may not have problems, you may have insurmountable problems; it's crap shoot, and it will vary from location to location. It is also not very upgradeable.

(You could also go with a Rode NTG-2 or Audio Technica AT897, which use batteries to power their internal phantom power supply. However, these mics will be far less forgiving than the two flavors of VideoMics and really must be used on a boom-pole with someone who has some idea of what they are doing to get solid production sound. If you are going to be a "one-man-band" I would go with the VMP.)

My entry level prosumer $1,000 (low impedance) kit gives you upgrade options in the future. You can add a mixer later for improved control and better preamps. The mics have better resale value, or can be saved as back-ups if/when you get better mics.

 

[cheeseandachallenge]

Ok, thanks for your recommendations. I've kind of realised I won't be needing sound for a wee bit - I only have a short window where I have potential shooting time coming up (between university semesters - i'm changing my degree to film + science next semester), and the stuff I've got written at the moment is silent/without dialogue. I won't be shooting (much) next semester either, as there isn't a production aspect of first semester film, and it's going to be incredibly difficult to take all my stuff to the hostel where I'm staying.

So the next time I'll be shooting (with sound) is likely to be many months away, and I will start sorting my gear then - rather than leaving it in storage. It takes away having a large sum to pay at once early on. By the time I go to buy, I'll probably be feeling a lot more willing to spend a little more, having had a break since my last spend.

But thank you so much for your recommendations! I think I'll pick up that book for some reading soon.