Budget/Beginner Sound Rig

cheeseandachallenge

cheeseandachallenge

First up, apologies for posting a fair bit recently asking for help... The learning curve with some of this stuff is quite steep...

So I have searched and read a lot, but am finding it hard to apply all this information to my needs.

I am looking at getting my first audio rig, and need to know what is nessecery, what set up I need and how much I should expect to pay for low-price/good quality (for the price). I was initially hoping to be spending around $500 tops, but it's dawning on me that this may be unrealistic?

My media studies (basically film class in high school) teacher got a new boom + mic (think it was Rode, but wouldn't really remember) which I had running directly in the camera - and the sound was not noticably better. It may have been as it was running directly in the camera, my technique, my post-production, etc.. But his was a relatively pricey set up (granted, it was only mic and boom pole) for what was incredibly amateur work - it may have been his lack in knowledge of what to buy, or maybe my lack of knowledge in using the equipment.

If anyone can help set me on the right path, that would be great.

Thanks
 
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Skill and technique are often more important than the gear. If his setup was indeed pricey and RODE then it was probably a good mic.

What camera are you using? Does it have XLR inputs?
 
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I hope Aclove audio (bob) doesn't mind me sharing this. A month or so back I had a PM conversation about the best $1k package. This was his reply. Currently I have not purchased anything because I'm lucky enough to still have access to borrowing similar equipment and so it's not the highest on my list of things to upgrade, however I have saved this for future use

"Here's the $1k package that I would get:

Either the Rode NTG-1 ($250) or the Audio Technica AT875 ($160). When you buy the kit from B&H the AT875 kit is $30 cheaper ($600 vs $570). The kits have a Shock Mount, Softie, Boompole w/Case, 20' XLR Cable.

For the recorder get the Tascam DR-100mkII ($260). I prefer the build and functionality over the H4n, and the pre-amps are marginally better. B&H has a kit ($340) with the Sony MDR-7506 headphones ($100) that will save you $20. The DR-40 is also worth consideration, but does not have realtime controls (volume knobs), and the preamps aren't quite as good..

Get the Battery Pack for the DR-100mkII ($25); in fact, get two. And get the Porta-Brace or Strut case (about $75) for the DR-100mkII as well.

I would also very seriously recommend getting the Avantone CK-1 hypercardioid mic ($150). It will sound a lot better indoors. It will also be quite useful for doing basic Foley and sound effects work in audio post.

This actually puts you a little over $1,200 (NTG-1 kit + DR-100 kit with headphones + two battery packs + Strut case + CK-1). You can save $30 with the AT875 kit and the Petrol case for the DR-100mkII is only $50, saving another $25. Without the CK-1 you're back at $1k.

Later on you can seriously improve your sound by adding a PSC ProMix3 mixer, under $500.

That's my recommendation.

Peace,

Bob"
 
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DDK said:
Adaptors are seriously expensive. The one that I've seen recommended here a few times costs around $500.



What about an "absolute bare essential necessity" recommendation?
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With an adapter costing that much (which trust me it doesn't, they're like $20. An XLR to 3.5mm does not cost $500...) you're better of getting a field recorder like the Tascam listed in Bob's message.

That's not my recommendation, it's Bobs, however I'm sure from a sound perspective that is the bare minimum. They say spend the same on vision as you do sound. So if you buy a $800 camera with a couple of lenses.... Then you're gonna have to buy a $1k sound kit (assuming of course you follow the rules :P)

The cheap solution is a RODE video mic pro which mounts to a shoe thingo on top of your camera and plugs in through 3.5mm which is about $200 on video guys.
 
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DDK said:
Old threads are old.

How relavent is that information 1-2 years on?
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Funny thing about audio is that unlike cameras the tech doesn't change all that frequently.

Best thing to do is get the audio off the camera.

Mic --> XLR Cable --> PreAmp --> Recorder.

Bargain basement around here seems to be:

Rode NTG 1/2/3 --> XLR Cable (low impedence) --> Juiced Link --> Tascam DR100/Zoom H4n.

Five years ago, two years ago, today, and next year. Pretty much the same set up.
Should be good for ten years, unlike the camera any of us beginners will be using. :)
 
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rayw said:
Funny thing about audio is that unlike cameras the tech doesn't change all that frequently.

Best thing to do is get the audio off the camera.

Mic --> XLR Cable --> PreAmp --> Recorder.

Bargain basement around here seems to be:

Rode NTG 1/2/3 --> XLR Cable (low impedence) --> Juiced Link --> Tascam DR100/Zoom H4n.

Five years ago, two years ago, today, and next year. Pretty much the same set up.
Should be good for ten years, unlike the camera any of us beginners will be using. :)
Click to expand...

This post should be made a sticky.

Also, why is there no dedicated sound forum category like there is for cameras, lenses, computers and software? Is sound not important enough?
 
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DDK said:
... why is there no dedicated sound forum category like there is for cameras, lenses, computers and software? Is sound not important enough?
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IDK.
We've been asking for one since I got here.
I guess the programming issues are more complex than "just doing it."
But it would be welcome.
 
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The very first rule of solid production sound is to get the mic in as close as possible and pointed at the mouths of the actors. To be precise, the mic should be pointed at the notch at the base of the neck. The angle of the mic should be adjusted from actor to actor as they speak their lines. To accomplish this the mic must be on a boom-pole.

DDK said:
NTG-2's seem to be the most popularly suggested one around here.
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Actually, I'm not a big fan of the NTG-2; it's a "solution" mic for those who do not use a mixer or preamp that can provide phantom power. The NTG-2, Audio Technica AT897 and similar mics that use an internal phantom power supply powered by a battery tend to have lower output levels, as much as -6dB.

DDK said:
Also... why the hell are boom POLES so damn expensive? They're POLES fer cryin' out loud.
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Because a quality boom-pole is very light weight. Just try holding a boom-pole over your head for eight to ten hours a day; the sucker gets really heavy after a while. Graphite and carbon fiber boom-pole are very light but still need to be relatively rigid; that doesn't come cheaply. A 20' graphite boom-pole weighs 2.12 lbs., a 10' aluminum pole can weigh the same or more.

BTW, a quality boompole can last for years, so if you prorate the cost of a $700 boom-pole over ten years it's actually not that expensive, only $70 a year. When production sound is your business that's a pretty good ROI.

DDK said:
How relavent is that (audio gear) information 1-2 years on?
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With the exception of digital audio recorders production sound technology hasn't really changed significantly in many, many years. I have mics that are 25+ years old that still sound fantastic.


cheeseandachallenge -

My suggestions for a basic budget production sound kit (which MileCreations posted) still stands. As I mentioned, with the exception of audio recorders, most of the gear will be useful to you for years; it's an INVESTMENT. There are production sound professionals who still use mixers and mics from 20 years ago. Ask people around here how many cameras they have been through in the last ten years, then, unless they decided on a quality upgrade, ask how long they they've had their audio gear.

As always, your best bet is to retain someone who knows production sound. You can buy the right gear and learn the basics of production sound, but once you start directing you are probably handing the production sound to someone with little knowledge or experience, so what was the point of all your spending and education?
 
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Ok, I'll do some research based on AA's recommendations to Miles Creations. Is there any cheaper way to do this (is it worth buying new for warranties, or is second hand fine?) or is this really the bare minimum of a semi-serious set up?

Also, I have a pair of AKG in ears (good, but not great) and a pair of AKG K 142 HD overhead headphones (http://us.akg.com/akg-product-detail_us/k-142-hd.html) - which are fairly decent. Would they suffice as listening headphones? They have a fair bit of sound leakage and are not noise cancelling - but I'm not sure how important this is
 
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Alcove Audio said:
You can buy the right gear and learn the basics of production sound, but once you start directing you are probably handing the production sound to someone with little knowledge or experience, so what was the point of all your spending and education?
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You learn all this stuff so that you know exactly what you're talking about when you're frothing at the mouth and screaming about how everyone around you is incompetent :D
 
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And also the fact I'll be flying solo for at least a few years to come... (probably)

Edit: also, how good is the value of the B&H kits? Do they include things that aren't nessecary for budget film-making (granted, just looking at what is included, it all seems useful), and is it cheaper/more cost effective to buy some of that stuff separately?
 
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cheeseandachallenge said:
... how good is the value of the B&H kits? Do they include things that aren't nessecary for budget film-making (granted, just looking at what is included, it all seems useful), and is it cheaper/more cost effective to buy some of that stuff separately?
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Pull out the calculator, add up the cost of separate components and then compare to the kit price. BTW, it is really worth calling them if you intend on making a "substantial" purchase. Believe it or not, they will sometimes do nice package deals. I like dealing with them because I have never had a problem with returns, their staff is knowledgeable, and I get good customer support.


cheeseandachallenge said:
Also, I have ... a pair of AKG K 142 HD overhead headphones (http://us.akg.com/akg-product-detail_us/k-142-hd.html) - which are fairly decent.
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You want closed-back headphones; you want to block out as much of the "outside world" as you possibly can. Pro sound mixers and boom-ops have even taken to using custom made headphones built into ear protectors like those used on pistol ranges or flight decks.

Noise canceling is the absolute wrong thing to do; you WANT to hear the extraneous noise so you can figure out how to eliminate it as best you can.

The Sony MDR-7506 and Sennheiser HD-25 cans are pretty standard; they are closed-back, have a fairly flat frequency response and are relatively durable.


DDK said:
You learn all this stuff so that you know exactly what you're talking about when you're frothing at the mouth and screaming about how everyone around you is incompetent
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I'm not "frothing at the mouth and screaming." Sound-for-picture is hard. Most filmmakers are visually oriented and have a very difficult time with sound-for-picture. 90% of filmmakers ignore sound-for-picture completely. Another 8% fall to the marketing ploys that buying the right gear will solve their problems. Then there's the final 2% who actually decide that it's worth finding audio collaborators to handle the other half of their film.

My point is, as always, knowledge needs to be backed by skill and experience. Skill comes with practice, experience comes with time. So even if C&C has the right gear, he still needs to knowledge about gain-staging, proper recording levels, boom/mic techniques, etc. Then, having learned all of this, comes acquiring the skills and the practical experience. Lots of practical experience that tells you there are no rigid rules, only accepted techniques and methods that work a huge percentage of the time. And then, finally, you should have the knowledge, skills and experience to step outside of the box to come up with creative solutions.

So buying the right gear does not solve the audio problem. Reading about gain-staging, boom/mic techniques, et. al. does not solve the audio problem. Putting the gear to proper use with with the acquired knowledge is a start. The skills and experience comes with practical application of the knowledge and time.

But most folks here on IndieTalk do not want to be boom-ops, or production sound mixers, or dialog editors, or Foley mixers, or Foley artists, or sound effects editors or rerecording mixers. They want to direct. Since they hear that "Sound is half of the experience" they pay lip service and get the gear and learn a bit about sound-for-picture. And I acknowledge that many of them are quite in earnest - they want good sound. But the minute they get on the set they pass the production audio over to someone with far less knowledge than themselves, and usually close to zero knowledge. Knowledge, skill and experience cannot be magically transferred from one person to another in a matter of minutes. So all of that gear and acquired knowledge is wasted.
 
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