Blackmagic Deisgn 2.5K Raw S16 -- for 2,999.99 - July

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I think too that at this point the whole "2.5k Raw" thing is overshadowing the more practical built in ProRes/DNxHD compression. Most people, most of the time, probably won't really need raw. 10 bit ProRes HQ with a log color space is much more interesting to me - it gives a ton of room to work in post and runs about 90Gb/hour so it really drops the storage requirement. Newegg has 120Gb OCZ SSDs for $99 right now, which puts the cost per minute about the same as the CF cards I've been using with the 5D. It's nice to know you can shoot full raw when necessary, but most of the time it'll be much more useful to go compressed - and this is another significant advantage it's got over similar cameras like the new digital bolex.
 
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Cool. I get that BMD is not a start-up, but this kind of news inspires me to hope that there are more garage start-ups out there putting together more kick-ass and cheaper cameras to unleash on the filmmaking world. Why not? It could happen.
 
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richy said:
this kind of news inspires me to hope that there are more garage start-ups out there putting together more kick-ass and cheaper cameras to unleash on the filmmaking world. Why not? It could happen.
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I don't know, I have a feeling this camera may have the opposite effect. Look at the digital bolex guys - they're basically the kind of garage start-up you're describing. A week ago they had an innovative camera a lot of people were excited about. Today they have a camera that costs slightly more for significantly less functionality - smaller sensor, lower resolution, no on board compression, no direct SSD recording, no high-res touchscreen, no thunderbolt, etc - and they don't have the support background, professional experience or reputation of black magic designs. You also don't get $1000+ of free high end professional software with their camera. Oh, and their target ship date is five months after black magic's. Long term they're dead in the water, at least with their current plans, so unfortunately I just don't see how a small garage startup will compete significantly with cameras with this level of functionality hitting the market in this price range.
 
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I got hands on today and talked to the reps. It makes a pretty picture for sure. Native 800 ISO and very simple, not a ton of customization in camera. There's rolling shutter for sure, but not any worse than a 7D or 5D.

It really looks like a quality little camera, and it comes with the full versions of Resolve ($995 normally) to sweeten the deal.

A 500 GB will do about 45 minutes of RAW 2.5k or about 5 hours of 1080p ProRes. All continuous shooting, as long as you have space it'll shoot.
 
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PaulGriffith said:
I got hands on today and talked to the reps. It makes a pretty picture for sure. Native 800 ISO and very simple, not a ton of customization in camera. There's rolling shutter for sure, but not any worse than a 7D or 5D.

It really looks like a quality little camera, and it comes with the full versions of Resolve ($995 normally) to sweeten the deal.

A 500 GB will do about 45 minutes of RAW 2.5k or about 5 hours of 1080p ProRes. All continuous shooting, as long as you have space it'll shoot.
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Good info, Paul. Wish I could be there!

Just glad I got into the preorder line before it opened up.
 
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I have to admit, I can't stop looking at this camera. I realise I have no chance of being able to afford one anytime soon but it just looks so incredible! I think the choice to have the EF mount is a great one, but then I think so much of this camera has been expertly thought out. These guys know what they're doing! I'll just continue to lust from afar...
 
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Kholi said:
and that back window, that's stuff you only see in 15K+ cameras.
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How's that? He said he had a 1.2k HDMI on her face, so it's not like we're seeing a huge dynamic range displayed here.

There's some odd contouring along the right side of her neck. Could just be the results of his grading work, or possibly compression, but it's not something I'd generally expect to see with 10 or 12 bit source material.
 
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ItDonnedOnMe said:
How's that? He said he had a 1.2k HDMI on her face, so it's not like we're seeing a huge dynamic range displayed here.

There's some odd contouring along the right side of her neck. Could just be the results of his grading work, or possibly compression, but it's not something I'd generally expect to see with 10 or 12 bit source material.
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1.2 HMI + 216 in an underlit room. That's the ONLY light in that room, being chopped to hell by 216 and probably far back.

The other side is bounce and there's neg. This situation isn't enough to bring up room level to broad daylight, that window would be gone on anything with less than 10 stops of usable DR, exposed at this level.

And, it should be something you'd see on a bad grade, which john admits he's no colorist. More than likely he applied a strange curve, that's all. That and the fact that you aren't watching an actual 12-bit vimeo file, because a 12-bit vimeo file doesn't exist. Any issues created by a weird grade will always be exaggerated.

It's going to happen more, most people at this level have NO idea what it means to color a raw image, and things are going to look like trash for quite some time.
 
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For those that aren't familiar with it, here is a very quick, but barely surface scratching example of what raw is about.

Epic 5K screen caps, me quickly illustrating in about 3 minutes :


original
original.jpg



bad
bad.jpg


a little better
lilbetter.jpg



No Colorist = detrimental. John did his best, but he openly states that an actual colorist would do a lot better.

Believe in it. =]
 
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ItDonnedOnMe said:
I don't know, I have a feeling this camera may have the opposite effect. Look at the digital bolex guys - they're basically the kind of garage start-up you're describing. A week ago they had an innovative camera a lot of people were excited about. Today they have a camera that costs slightly more for significantly less functionality - smaller sensor, lower resolution, no on board compression, no direct SSD recording, no high-res touchscreen, no thunderbolt, etc - and they don't have the support background, professional experience or reputation of black magic designs. You also don't get $1000+ of free high end professional software with their camera. Oh, and their target ship date is five months after black magic's. Long term they're dead in the water, at least with their current plans, so unfortunately I just don't see how a small garage startup will compete significantly with cameras with this level of functionality hitting the market in this price range.
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Oh. I feel bad for the digital bolex guys. =(

Here's hoping that they're able to adapt.

What I think would be cool is if a company like BMD, or whichever, called you (ItDonnedOnMe), Kholi, Paul Griffith and the rest of you who know what's what to help them develop an awesome indie/B-cam/whatever cinema camera, like BMD let John Brawley in on their development of this camera...only with even more involvement. =D

I know we're not supposed to judge a camera by the video we watch on Vimeo. But for a non-techy layperson like myself, well, that's all I got to go by.

Anyway. Gosh. Looking at Brawley's video examples, I tentatively think that I like it better than that of the GH2. It looks really good so far. Maybe there's nothing scientific/empirical to support why that should be, in other words, maybe it's just my imagination. But this video looks less micro 4/3-y to me. And that's nice. Especially the Bondi video shot with the Canon 15-85mm. But it seems true of the 35mm video too. If it's not my imagination, and I don't think it is, I suppose it's because there are differences in how the two cameras operate? Or is it just the difference that 2.5K gives you or something?
 
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richy said:
Anyway. Gosh. Looking at Brawley's video examples, I tentatively think that I like it better than that of the GH2. It looks really good so far. Maybe there's nothing scientific/empirical to support why that should be, in other words, maybe it's just my imagination. But this video looks less micro 4/3-y to me. And that's nice. Especially the Bondi video shot with the Canon 15-85mm. But it seems true of the 35mm video too. If it's not my imagination, and I don't think it is, I suppose it's because there are differences in how the two cameras operate? Or is it just the difference that 2.5K gives you or something?
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It does look to drop images of a coked-out-GH2 nature, to my eyes as well. Or, it looks really similar to actual S16, just cleaner stock.

What you might be seeing is color depth, or the actual real resolution being put to screen without aliasing, over-sharpening, etc. Resolution is definitely part of the perception of depth in an image, as much as people want to deny it.

And, then, there's the color depth. Which extends a long long long way into how you perceive still and motion.

Many things at work, and it's still only the beta image. There are a lot of things that can and probably will improve in a matter of weeks that'll make it even better.
 
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Kholi said:
And, it should be something you'd see on a bad grade, which john admits he's no colorist. More than likely he applied a strange curve, that's all. That and the fact that you aren't watching an actual 12-bit vimeo file, because a 12-bit vimeo file doesn't exist. Any issues created by a weird grade will always be exaggerated.
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I'm not so sure it can be blamed on his grade - he just posted full res ungraded/graded still comparisons on his site. I grabbed the ungraded one and simply maximized the dynamic range without applying a curve and the contouring is visible, it also looks similar to his graded version so I don't think he was doing anything too extreme with the CC. Now, granted this is a JPEG and therefore 8 bit, but I'm assuming he's working with at least 10bit files in resolve so I'm surprised to see the same contouring in either place. I suspect it's whatever he's using to convert the CinemaDNG files to an edit format that's causing this, but until he's able to post a native frame it's hard to say.

On the ungraded still black's at about 25% so this shot isn't even using the full dynamic range of the camera. There's also a surprising amount of noise considering the apparent exposure.
 
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Caught a glimpse of the shot too. Curiously, it also doesn't look like it's the 2.5K cinemaDNG. It may or may not be, but it would make sense that it isn't the full range from the camera if it's ProRes.

That may be the culprit, or just early camera image development. We went through similar with RED in the beginning, very similar . I hope it's more ironed out before release date but it won't stop me from purchasing, either way.
 
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Wouldn't worry about the noise either. Plenty of time to adjust SNR before release date.

I've got a prototype of a certain yet-to-be-released large sensor camera right now in my hands and it was explicitly stated not to bother shooting above a certain ISO or in certain circumstances because the sensor is still a beta sensor. It's noisy, very clearly.

The camera is due out very soon. Not worried because I know the last iteration of this same camera was damned clean.

That's just how it goes.
 
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Oh, and I should point out, in comparison to low grade video (4:2:0 8-bit), heavily compressed formats... uncompressed will look noisier.

Observe hacked GH2 footage. The less compressed the signal from the sensor, the more noise. Or, if you've ever messed with Viper or Genesis footage, same thing.

This still needs to be balanced, but an uncompressed signal isn't noise-free.

Resolve has a pretty good noise-reduction setting built-in, as does most finishing/color suites. It's common/typical, just like sharpening. Good thing you get the software for freeskies.

Learning? However... its not free. =P
 
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