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Best way to go about sound with Canon 5D MkIII?

A

Acooljt

OK, first off, yes, I'm a total noob. Having said that, I'm not a complete moron. :P I'm going to shoot a short film here in the coming months that I'll be writing/directing and it seems like the Canon 5d MkIII is the way to go as far as quality video and a decent price. Obviously though, it's sound lacks. I've researched shotgun mics but it seems like none of them have any range. So what's the best way obtain decent sound on my short film WITHOUT having to sync in post? This is the key. I know I can use a whole separate recording setup and have to sync it in post but as I'm basically a one man crew, I'd prefer to dodge this bullet. Obviously I want to use a boom mic instead of a shotgun, right? And I've read a lot of reviews talking about this Beachtek stuff? Could you guys educate me further on what I should do to get decent sound without having to sync in post?

I'm sorry if this question's been asked a million times but I really have scoured google and youtube but none of the articles or topics seem to answer my question directly, just kind of dance around similar issues.

And lastly, thanks in advance for the help and thanks to the creators of this forum for the great resource!
 
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Alcove Audio said:

The Graff Zeppelin

zeppelin-1%255B1%255D.jpg

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That's actually the Hindenburg :D. Thank you still !
 
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Alcove Audio said:
That's a very different issue than too much low end. The problem (static sound) may be digital clipping; try turning down the gain. You may want to consider a quality mic pre.

You may also want to consider using a different mic. As I mentioned I sometimes use a dynamic mic in addition to a condenser mic when recording sounds with very loud transients such as door slams; the dynamic in close and the condenser further away. I might or might not blend the two during the mix.

And before you ask, the dynamic will be a Shure SM57, or an EV (Electrovoice) RE-20, or a Beyer TG-X50. For a hyper when doing sound effects I usually use a Sennheiser MKH-40, but sometimes the AKG C-1000S. For the LDC I'll use my AKG 414-BUL/S. It's nice to have choices.
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Okay thanks. It's not clipping though. I've tried tests when recording loud sounds. I turned down the gain so that I can record a loud shout. I shouted into the mic and it recorded it perfectly. But if I record things such as a door slam, a foot stomp, or my friend being thrown into the wall, it creates shock vibrations.

The mic is sensitive to shock, and it records those sounds with a sound in the background, that sounds like how wind sounds through a cell phone sometimes. That's the unwanted sound I am talking about. If it's not a sound that requires a hard physical thump or slam of some sort, than the mic will record just fine though.
 
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So what are you going to do, give up? You have to experiment. Maybe the AT4053b is too sensitive for what you want to record; try another mic. I've already explained this...

Alcove Audio said:
You may also want to consider using a different mic. As I mentioned I sometimes use a dynamic mic in addition to a condenser mic when recording sounds with very loud transients such as door slams; the dynamic in close and the condenser further away. I might or might not blend the two during the mix.
Click to expand...

Creating sound effects and Foley, at least for me, is the fun part of audio post. Just wait until you try to create sounds that don't really exist. I've created the sound of someone handling a tassel and other ultra quiet objects. I'm currently working on a project with "supernatural" beings - werewolves and vampires. Right now I'm doing the dialog edit, but I can't wait to get to the "magic" sounds; there is also an epic gun battle, and I'll have to create the sounds of the vampire being impaled by wood from a completely imaginary projectile weapon. I can't friggin, wait!!!
 
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harmonica44 said:
Okay thanks. It's not clipping though. I've tried tests when recording loud sounds. I turned down the gain so that I can record a loud shout. I shouted into the mic and it recorded it perfectly. But if I record things such as a door slam, a foot stomp, or my friend being thrown into the wall, it creates shock vibrations.

The mic is sensitive to shock, and it records those sounds with a sound in the background, that sounds like how wind sounds through a cell phone sometimes. That's the unwanted sound I am talking about. If it's not a sound that requires a hard physical thump or slam of some sort, than the mic will record just fine though.
Click to expand...

Do you have the mic suspended in a shockmount or just a some sort of clip? Is it actually movement of the mic that's causing the shock, or are you too close so that wind from the person being thrown or whatever is getting into the capsule of the mic? The wind created from a slamming door will certainly create clipping and distortion if the mic is too close, or not protected by some sort of pop filter, foam or fluffy windjammer.
 
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harmonica44 said:
Okay thanks. It's not clipping though. I've tried tests when recording loud sounds. I turned down the gain so that I can record a loud shout. I shouted into the mic and it recorded it perfectly. But if I record things such as a door slam, a foot stomp, or my friend being thrown into the wall, it creates shock vibrations.

The mic is sensitive to shock, and it records those sounds with a sound in the background, that sounds like how wind sounds through a cell phone sometimes. That's the unwanted sound I am talking about. If it's not a sound that requires a hard physical thump or slam of some sort, than the mic will record just fine though.
Click to expand...

If you're going to be recording sound on a regular basis, which seems to be the case from some of your posts, then you really should learn the basic principles of how sound works. If you know the basic principles then you can avoid the type of problem you are talking about or know how to identify and fix it when it occurs. The solution to your problem maybe a different mic but probably isn't!

Sound is a set of pressure wave or vibrations which travel through the air, these pressure waves cause the diaphragm in your mic to vibrate in response and create an electrical (analogue) signal. The consequence of this fact is two fold in the examples you have given:

1. Microphones are dumb, they cannot tell the difference between the relatively tiny sound waves which travel through the air and some action or event which physically moves air. This is why wind noise can be so devastating to an audio recording and why plosives such as the letter "P" are can be over so emphasised (the production of the letter "P" moves a lot of air as well as creating sound pressure waves). Obviously, closing a door moves a considerable amount of air. So you have to position your mic where it will only be exposed to the sound pressure waves and not to the air flow caused by the door closing. Using the same tools you would use to combat wind noise might also be an option but a last option.

2. Microphones are dumb! They cannot tell the difference between the relatively tiny sound vibrations travelling through the air and vibrations travelling through solid material. A foot stomp or someone being thrown against the wall creates vibrations which travel through the floors and walls and will also travel up a mic stand and vibrate the mic's diaphragm. Again, you need to expose the microphone to the sound pressure waves whilst isolating it from the shock waves travelling through whatever is holding the microphone. The most common tool for this job is a mic shock mount but sometimes additional measures are necessary.

Using a less sensitive mic helps to cure the above problems but also of course results in it being less sensitive to the sound pressure waves it is supposed to be recording and is therefore often not a first choice solution. Finding the correct mic placement is usually the first choice but of course depends on what you are recording and what you intend to do with that recording.

Good advice from Alcove by the way. Obviously using the wrong type of Zeppelin could be quite dangerous. Inserting a shotgun mic into a Led Zeppelin for example could result in an electric guitar being smashed over your head! :)

G
 
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Alcove Audio said:
So what are you going to do, give up? You have to experiment. Maybe the AT4053b is too sensitive for what you want to record; try another mic. I've already explained this...



Creating sound effects and Foley, at least for me, is the fun part of audio post. Just wait until you try to create sounds that don't really exist. I've created the sound of someone handling a tassel and other ultra quiet objects. I'm currently working on a project with "supernatural" beings - werewolves and vampires. Right now I'm doing the dialog edit, but I can't wait to get to the "magic" sounds; there is also an epic gun battle, and I'll have to create the sounds of the vampire being impaled by wood from a completely imaginary projectile weapon. I can't friggin, wait!!!
Click to expand...

Yeah creating sound effects is great fun. I can understand why you love it. A couple of nights ago I created a huge boiling cauldron SFX. You could be standing next to a big chasm with masses of churning, boiling water when you hear it. But in actual fact, it was just multiple layers of me doing various different takes of blowing through a vacuum cleaner pipe into a basin of water to creat bubbles. Some pitch shifting in various percentages to some of the tracks, with added reverb and delay.That was then mixed with the sound of a running river, and steam from an old train. Something like 20 tracks of audio in total to get the effect. But whodathunkit when they hear it?
 
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TheArtist said:
Oh I think I found that page while searching some info on Google.

I have another question. What is exactly referred to when people say "zeppelin" ?

I tried to talk to some guy within the club I mentioned earlier who had this Figure 8, trying to understand why would they buy something like this. He said so many things, he was all over the place, invoking condensers, cardioid, zeppelin... I think he don't really know what he was talking about but he was convinced he was. Now I just want to find out how much that mic actually cost.
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Here's the link:
http://rocksuresoundz.com/2012/03/21/microphones-different-types/

It contains none of the following terminology:

Zeppelins and blimps
.........yes a zeppelin is four guys in a good rock band, whilst
A blimp is a fat guy...who was not in Zeppelin.
A Rycote is the mispelling of the words awry coat.......which is a poorly painted surface, and
A dead cat is something that you don't want to sell in a chinese restaurant
 
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Okay thanks, but I have been using a shock mount and I still get the vibrations. Only with the AT4053b though. If I use the NTG-3, I don't have the problem. I hope I can mix sound effects from the NTG-3 and make it sound like it's in the same room with dialogue recorded with the 4053b though.

I have also tried recording door slams and things like that with the 4053b further away, but it sounds too far away. If the camera shows a guy hitting the wall, at a close up angle, the mic will make it sound like it is coming from across the room by comparison, unless you record close up.

But I don't want this thread to get derailed into something else that is not about the OPs concern. Or maybe this may help his mic purchasing decision.
 
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I've got everything I need from this thread so feel free to derail it now.

Purchase list:

Tascam DR-100mkII
Audio-Technica AT-875 kit for exteriors
Audio-Technica AT-4053b kit for interiors
Sony MDR-7506 headphones
 
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If you're going to get the AT4053b as your cardioid you should get the Rode NT-3 as your shotgun.

Conversely, if you are going to settle on the AT875 as your shotgun the Avantone Pro CK-1 should be fine as your hypercardioid. It just doesn't make sense to get a $500 hyper and a $175 shotgun - unless you are planning on doing A LOT of production sound and/or audio post work (Foley and sound effects).

In fact, if you are going to spend that kind of money, you should get the AT875 & the CK-1 as your mics and get the PSC ProMix 3 (under $500) as your mixer; that would be my personal choice.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/428643-REG/PSC_DV_PROMIX_3.html


If you really want to splurge get the Sound Devices MixPre-D (around $900).

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/428643-REG/PSC_DV_PROMIX_3.html



If it was me working on a mini/mid budget:

Tascam DR-100mkII ($260)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/832911-REG/Tascam_DR100MKII_DR_100mkII_Portable_Linear.html

PSC DV ProMix-3 Kit ($490)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/428643-REG/PSC_DV_PROMIX_3.html

AT875 Kit ($600)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/551607-REG/Audio_Technica_AT_875_Shotgun_Microphone.html

Avantone CK-1 ($150)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/867157-REG/Avantone_Pro_CK1_CK_1_Small_Capsule_FET_Pencil.html

Sony MDR-7506 Headphones ($100)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/49510-REG/Sony_MDR_7506_MDR_7506_Headphone.html

Tascam BP-6AA (x 2 = $100)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/826148-REG/Tascam_BP_6AA_BP_6AA_External_Battery_Pack.html

Porta Brace AR-DR100 Case for Tascam DR-100 ($80)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/842646-REG/Porta_Brace_AR_DR100_AR_DR100_Case_for_Tascam.html

Pro Co Sound MasterMike XLR Male to XLR Female Cable - 25' ($25)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/128680-REG/Pro_Co_Sound_M_25_MasterMike_XLR_Male_to.html


TOTAL: $1,805


If that's too much, whittle down from there. You can get away without the ProMix 3 for now; now you're down to $1,315.

You then select such things as the case (take off another $80 = $1,235) and one battery pack (take off another $25 = $1,210). You should really have these things, but......


Audio is, as with most aspects of indie filmmaking (and even large budget projects), a series of compromises. Yes, you can get away without the mixer, but you will have less control and more self-noise from the DR-100. Etc., etc., etc.

As always, I recommend that you retain someone with more knowledge and gear than you have; your project will be better for it.
 
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Acooljt said:
Can you mute the onboard mics on the Tascam DR-100mkII so as just to record with the external mics?
Click to expand...

Yes. But, you really don't have to.

When you boot up the DR-100 it defaults to the "front" mics; you have to go into the menu to tell it to go into four (4) channel mode.

When you plug a mic into the XLR input(s) it turns off the front mics and defaults to EXT (External).


At least that's the way the DR-100 I used worked; they may have changed the default hierarchy since I last used a DR-100 (or it was already customized).
 
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