Best way to go about sound with Canon 5D MkIII?

[Acooljt]

OK, first off, yes, I'm a total noob. Having said that, I'm not a complete moron. I'm going to shoot a short film here in the coming months that I'll be writing/directing and it seems like the Canon 5d MkIII is the way to go as far as quality video and a decent price. Obviously though, it's sound lacks. I've researched shotgun mics but it seems like none of them have any range. So what's the best way obtain decent sound on my short film WITHOUT having to sync in post? This is the key. I know I can use a whole separate recording setup and have to sync it in post but as I'm basically a one man crew, I'd prefer to dodge this bullet. Obviously I want to use a boom mic instead of a shotgun, right? And I've read a lot of reviews talking about this Beachtek stuff? Could you guys educate me further on what I should do to get decent sound without having to sync in post?

I'm sorry if this question's been asked a million times but I really have scoured google and youtube but none of the articles or topics seem to answer my question directly, just kind of dance around similar issues.

And lastly, thanks in advance for the help and thanks to the creators of this forum for the great resource!

 

[escher]

You might want to get an adapter/mic combination for balanced XLR -> Canon MkIII audio input jack. I've never done this myself, but it'll let you use a good mic w/out having to sync in post.

 

[Acooljt]

Is that what the Beachtek is? Which Beachtek to use? Any boom mic recommendations? Sorry with all the questions.

 

[MinutemenPro]

My school (which is one of the top in Chicago for arts, so budget for them isn't a gigantic issue) doesn't actually use boom mics. We have shotguns mics, with dead cat mufflers should we need them. You'd be surprised the range you get out of a shotgun mic, in fact many professional films utilize shotguns, depending on the scenario. The other thing is learning how to handle the mic and positioning it. Honestly, if you can, get another person to be boom operator because positioning is crucial. You want it as close to the actor(s) as possible at an elevated position (not straight on their lips). Look up some tips or videos on how to hold it, etc.

To answer the question about feeding it to the camera, get a conversion cable (1/8" to XLR) and that will plug into your camera body. The XLR end plugs into the XLR cable, obviously, which then attaches to your mic. Get a long cable so that the boom op can get close, as mentioned. They do make mics that are straight 1/8" jack, but your higher up and higher quality brands tend to be the XLR input/output.

 

[Acooljt]

I don't want to use just a converter cable because that will utilize the MkIII's preamp which isn't very good. That's why I'd like to use somethin like the Beachtek products because they use a separate preamp. I just don't know much beyond that.

 

[Alcove Audio]

So what's the best way obtain decent sound on my short film WITHOUT having to sync in post?

"Decent" is relative. The audio implementation on DSLRs is CRAP!!! They are still cameras being co-opted into doing video work, so getting "decent" sound is going to require lots of extra work and/or expense no matter what you do.

Obviously I want to use a boom mic instead of a shotgun, right?

Let's get terminology straight here... There is no such thing as a boom mic. Most mics can be hung on the end of a boom-pole. Shotgun mics are a preferred choice for use outdoors and by professional boom-ops. Most others should use a hypercardioid mic when shooting indoors.

Could you guys educate me further on what I should do to get decent sound without having to sync in post?

If you are planning on mounting your mic on the camera you've already lost the battle. All you need to do is hire someone who knows how to boom properly. If you can't hire someone look for an ambitious up-and-comer. The skill with which the boomed mic is used is the key to solid production sound.

And I've read a lot of reviews talking about this Beachtek stuff?

They are a compromise solution to a bad problem (the crappy audio implementation of DSLR cameras.) Depending upon which model you choose most DSLR audio adapted mixers (like the Beachtek DXA-SLR series or the juicedLink RM2 series) use a constant tone or white noise in one channel to suppress the AGC in the camera. In post you will have to split the stereo audio file and delete the "tone" track. The biggest issue here is that, quite often, the tone or white noise spills over onto the supposedly "clean" track. Depending upon the amount of leakage it could require lots of clean-up or be unusable.


Why are you so adamantly against having to sync audio in post? It's been done that way since "The Jazz Singer" and is still done with film and is also done with many digital formats as well. Why? It sounds better, and not having an umbilical cord attached to the camera allows the sound person/team a lot more freedom. The biggest plus, however, is to actually hear what is being recorded, which is impossible with DSLR cameras.

And, these days, if you are using a camcorder or DSLR, there a numerous software aids (like PluralEyes) that automate a large portion of the process.

 

[rayw]

These might be useful to you.
(Click on the "CC" to the left of the resolution gear icon, if you need to.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhHN6F-pPFY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNiZm5v7h2M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0eDMr2kRTg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2EXuOiwgQk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaP4QhYmpZ8

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+

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Some decent headphones would be in order, as well.
No point in recording audio if you can't hear what's actually being recorded.

 

[escher]

Depending upon which model you choose most DSLR audio adapted mixers (like the Beachtek DXA-SLR series or the juicedLink RM2 series) use a constant tone or white noise in one channel to suppress the AGC in the camera..

Thankfully, the 5D MkIII allows you to manually set the audio levels. AGC is of the devil.

 

[Acooljt]

Ok, lets entertain the idea of syncing in post. What would be a simple setup that would do a good job? I'm completely self-funding this so I can't go off the deep end and I'll be the one editting it in Final Cut Pro which I've never used before, hence my apprehension to sync in post.

 

[rayw]

Ok, lets entertain the idea of syncing in post. What would be a simple setup that would do a good job? I'm completely self-funding this so I can't go off the deep end and I'll be the one editting it in Final Cut Pro which I've never used before, hence my apprehension to sync in post.

Where is the final product going to be shown, so that we may better understand and scale the effort to be put into this?

 

[escher]

PluralEyes. Works pretty gosh-darned well.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Using a clapper-board/slate and verbally slating (saying loudly and firmly "Scene 67E, take 4" - then SMACK!) has been done for 80 years. Having detailed video and audio logs is also a huge help when syncing - not to mention a huge help when editing and doing the dialog edit.

 

[TheArtist]

Shotgun mics are a preferred choice for use outdoors and by professional boom-ops. Most others should use a hypercardioid mic when shooting indoors.

I was never clear on this. I thought that the pick-up pattern of a shotgun is a cardioid (more or less "hyper"). Do you have some good and comprehensive read about this (online and free) ?

I just did some quick research and it seems that the difference is that the Shotgun does not pick up sound from the rear where the super/hyper-cardioid does (and also, a more narrow front pattern). I can understand why the rear thing isn't wanted indoors (sound bouncing off the ceiling ?) but why do you go for it outdoors ? Why a shotgun is not your best pick even outdoors ?

 

[Acooljt]

Where is the final product going to be shown, so that we may better understand and scale the effort to be put into this?

Probably on the internet, Youtube and maybe itunes and such. I will also burn blurays/DVD's for myself and anyone interested though.

 

[Acooljt]

I was thinking and how about a Zoom H4n with a good mic that I will put on a boom, then sync in post. I've read good things about this setup. My question now: what is a good interior and exterior mic? I can't afford to buy two mics, as I said, I'm not loaded. I might consider getting 2 if I can get both together for under $1000.

 

[Alcove Audio]

I was never clear on this. I thought that the pick-up pattern of a shotgun is a cardioid (more or less "hyper"). Do you have some good and comprehensive read about this (online and free) ?

I just did some quick research and it seems that the difference is that the Shotgun does not pick up sound from the rear where the super/hyper-cardioid does (and also, a more narrow front pattern). I can understand why the rear thing isn't wanted indoors (sound bouncing off the ceiling ?) but why do you go for it outdoors ? Why a shotgun is not your best pick even outdoors ?

Shotgun mics use various polar patterns, usually one of the cardioid patterns (cardioid, supercardioid, hypercardioid). What turns a cardioid of whichever flavor into a lobar/shotgun is the interference tube (that's why shotgun/lobar mics are so long).

Every mic picks up from the rear. The polar pattern determines how much it picks up from the rear.

The Wikipedia article is pretty good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphone

The shotgun outdoors and hyper indoors is a rule of thumb for beginners. Indoors sounds will bounce around the room, literally millions of reflections. Shotgun mics are designed to pick up in a very narrow polar pattern. Consequently, due to its high off-axis rejection, shotguns mostly pick up the longest reflections and, due to it's design, also creates combing issues that just exacerbate the problem. This is solved by A) thoroughly treating the room to reduce ambient bounce and B) expert use of the mic (a very experienced boom-op, by keeping the mic aimed correctly, captures less of the ambient reflections than a neophyte). The second option is to use a hypercardioid which does not exaggerate the ambient reverb of the room. It is NOT a cure-all, it just mitigates the problem somewhat; you should still treat the room and, of course aim the mic properly.


The technical basics of mics and other sound issues are explained in laymans terms in Ric Viers "Production Sound Bible" and "Sound Effects Bible" in the first couple of chapters. Detailed discussions about mics involve physics and electronics, so get caught up and I'll give you some more references for advanced research.

 

[Alcove Audio]

I was thinking and how about a Zoom H4n with a good mic that I will put on a boom, then sync in post. I've read good things about this setup. My question now: what is a good interior and exterior mic? I can't afford to buy two mics, as I said, I'm not loaded. I might consider getting 2 if I can get both together for under $1000.

I greatly prefer the Tascam DR-100mkII ($260) over the H4n.

It's the accessories that kill your budget - the boom-pole, shock-mount, cables, wind protection, etc. For instance, the Audio-Technica AT875 shotgun is only $175; add in the accessories and you are close to $600.

So, $260 for the DR-100mkII, $600 for the AT875 kit is $860; you can still squeeze in the Avantone Pro CK-1 as your hyper for $150 - You're now at $1,010!!! WEEEEE-HOOOOOO!!!!!!!! We're right on budget!!!


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/832911-REG/Tascam_DR100MKII_DR_100mkII_Portable_Linear.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/551607-REG/Audio_Technica_AT_875_Shotgun_Microphone.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/867157-REG/Avantone_Pro_CK1_CK_1_Small_Capsule_FET_Pencil.html


Now all you need is someone competent to swing the boom for you.


This is also a very upgradeable system. The next step would be to add a good mixer like the PSC DV Promix 3 ($470) or the Sound Devices MixPre-D ($900) which will drastically improve your sound. From there you start upgrading mics (keep the old ones for back-ups), then you can add wireless and lavs.

 

[rayw]

Probably on the internet, Youtube and maybe itunes and such. I will also burn blurays/DVD's for myself and anyone interested though.

Fantastic.
Then there's no need to go crazy with audio, (which is pretty easy to do).
You might be able to just get away with a Rode VideoMic and maybe a Tascam DR 40.

http://www.amazon.com/Rode-VideoMic...qid=1360223356&sr=8-1&keywords=video+rode+mic

http://www.amazon.com/DR-40-4-Track...8&qid=1360223329&sr=8-1&keywords=tascam+dr-40

No one on YT gives a big flying fig about audio.

Link us a few YT videos you'd like to replicate, let us guesstimate how they achieved the audio they have.

 

[Acooljt]

I greatly prefer the Tascam DR-100mkII ($260) over the H4n.

It's the accessories that kill your budget - the boom-pole, shock-mount, cables, wind protection, etc. For instance, the Audio-Technica AT875 shotgun is only $175; add in the accessories and you are close to $600.

So, $260 for the DR-100mkII, $600 for the AT875 kit is $860; you can still squeeze in the Avantone Pro CK-1 as your hyper for $150 - You're now at $1,010!!! WEEEEE-HOOOOOO!!!!!!!! We're right on budget!!!


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/832911-REG/Tascam_DR100MKII_DR_100mkII_Portable_Linear.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/551607-REG/Audio_Technica_AT_875_Shotgun_Microphone.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/867157-REG/Avantone_Pro_CK1_CK_1_Small_Capsule_FET_Pencil.html


Now all you need is someone competent to swing the boom for you.


This is also a very upgradeable system. The next step would be to add a good mixer like the PSC DV Promix 3 ($470) or the Sound Devices MixPre-D ($900) which will drastically improve your sound. From there you start upgrading mics (keep the old ones for back-ups), then you can add wireless and lavs.

Thanks again for the help so far. So the shotgun mic is for exterior scenes right? Can you guys recommend a good mic for indoor use in the $500 or less range? Preferably something from a reputable brand. I've been a musician for 15 years so I know the names of Sennheiser and the like stand up well.

 

[TheArtist]

The shotgun outdoors and hyper indoors is a rule of thumb for beginners. Indoors sounds will bounce around the room, literally millions of reflections. Shotgun mics are designed to pick up in a very narrow polar pattern. Consequently, due to its high off-axis rejection, shotguns mostly pick up the longest reflections and, due to it's design, also creates combing issues that just exacerbate the problem. This is solved by A) thoroughly treating the room to reduce ambient bounce and B) expert use of the mic (a very experienced boom-op, by keeping the mic aimed correctly, captures less of the ambient reflections than a neophyte). The second option is to use a hypercardioid which does not exaggerate the ambient reverb of the room. It is NOT a cure-all, it just mitigates the problem somewhat; you should still treat the room and, of course aim the mic properly.

And what's the issue when using a hyper outdoors ?

I'm working with a group now who have done "News video" for a very long time and they are trying to move to fiction as well. The only boom mounted mic they have is a very expensive Figure 8.. Now is that any kind of useful for filmmaking ? In what situation ? I'm so sad they didn't do a quick research on forums like this one to get more stuff out of their budget (A pair of Technicas + boom + DR100).