"Amateur" Filmmakers making feature films

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SplinterX

Hello everybody

I´ve seen a lot of amateurs making feature films. By amateurs i mean independent enthusiasts who don´t really make a living out of filmmaking. Some of them even invest a good amount of money in their projects, wich 99% of the time have everything to fail.

Now, my question is: If you´re an amateur, isn´t much easier to market a short film than a feature?

I mean, who´s gonna watch a low budget feature by a unknown director? A short is actually easy to promote and get people to watch it, since most of the time it is just 5 or 10 minutes. And plus, it can cost a lot less money to produce. I´ve watched hundreds of low/no budget shorts, but not features. And i can say the same for everyone i know. And i´m not talking about movies who actually end up in theaters.

You can show your feature on festivals, and if it wins a big one, it might get some attention. But otherwise, who´s gonna watch it? Who´s gonna buy it?

This is a sincere question.
 
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SplinterX said:
You sound a little bit defensive. If i came across as offensive or something like that, i apologize. But, just out of curiosity, you don´t agree with me? You think the acting in amateur features is actually good, most of the time?
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There is a difference between being defensive and having a discussion.
You brought up issues that I find interesting so I am having a discussion
with you on those issues. Just because my point of view is a little different
than yours does not mean I'm defensive - it means I'm expressing my
opinion and open to hearing your opinion. We may differ in opinion -
perhaps we can learn from each other.

Yes. I find that the acting in many (not most) amateur features is actually
good. As a filmmaker I admire the effort filmmakers put into their projects;
from the story to the acting to the editing. As amateurs their films are not
flawless - most have many flaws - but the films are worth watching. But
you don't know that because you do not watch amateur features. Perhaps
you could expand your understanding of amateur features before you
paint them all with the same brush.



SplinterX said:
You´re right. I don´t watch them. But i watch trailers. If the acting in the trailers sounds awful, i doubt that in the movie it changes at all.
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Understandable from the general movie goer. I find that odd from someone
who wants to make movies. Again, I'm not being defensive, I'm expressing
an opinion. Nothing more. To close yourself off from all amateur features
because of a few trailers you have seen.

SplinterX said:
I´m trying to do it within 2 or 3 months. I´m still working on the script. The ideal would be to work on someone else´s script. But to find one doesn´t seem very easy.

It will be a low budget short. When you´re making something with little or no money, you have to deal with all sorts of obstacles. And i wanna make something i´m proud of, wich only makes everything even more difficult.
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Again I will start by telling you that this is just my opinion and I'm not
being defensive:

You seem to be looking for "easy". You use that word often. Of course
it's not easy to find good actors, it's not easy to write a great script, it's
not easy to make a film, you face all sorts of obstacles, and it's very
difficult to make a short film that you are proud of. Nothing about it is
going to be easy or easier.

If your don't try you can keep falling back on "I wanna make something
I'm proud of" and never make a movie at all. Or you can jump in, use
what you have, use the actors you can and make the best short film
you can. Then make another and another until you build the experience
you need to make one you are proud of.

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
Joseph Joubert (1754-1824)
 
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Richrebel said:
I think the main issue is that in the current film industry the first feature is a big test of whether or not you can make it. Unless you can pick up traction on your feature it can quite easily be seen as a fail. Plus the costs between making a feature and a short are massively different. Even getting a micro budget (lets say 50k) can be a stress and from what I have heard making a feature for even less than that can lead to being messed around by amateur editors/ crewmembers. Some films have never seen the light of day because an editor never properly finished the film.
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A lot of aspiring directors edit their own shorts, though, so couldn't they edit their own features, if the hired editor screwed up?
 
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GuerrillaAngel said:
People that were convinced by a savvy marketing plan. Heck there's one right here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0963781332


People that create a feature film without giving thought to marketing are doomed to failure from the get go.
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I remember someone mentioning this before.. was this your film?
One of my ideas is involves a trans character as the main character, would be interesting in hearing how you went about marketing to the community
 
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I know a lot of people on this forum feel very passionately about marketing but I tend to disagree. Seems to me if you make a good film it will find its audience. A good screenwriter/director could make a film about any subject and it will do well at festivals. At that point marketing can be an afterthought.
 
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Understandable from the general movie goer. I find that odd from someone
who wants to make movies. Again, I'm not being defensive, I'm expressing
an opinion. Nothing more. To close yourself off from all amateur features
because of a few trailers you have seen.
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You´re saying i closed myself from all amateur features. You´re saying that. I simply said most of the trailers that i watch for amateur features simply have HORRIBLE acting. I don´t have 24 hours a day to watch movies, so i have to be a little selective. Now i´m gonna watch a movie. I can either watch 12 Angry Men or an amateur feature whose trailer didn´t capture my interest.

I´m not going out of my way to search for amateur films. I watch a trailer of one if somebody suggests it to me. I just happen to not like most of what i watch.

I really have a problem watching 90 minutes of something that looks like a family home video. And i understand that you might not have the same problem, because i know there are people who love to watch Z movies, and that´s fine.

And i´m not saying all amateur films look like that. But the average ultra low budget feature simply doesn´t look good. Bad acting, bad cinematography, cliche story. And many of them are out on DVD. I don´t know who buys it. I only know i don´t.

Look at The Breakfast Club, Clerks and Following. I don´t know if i would call them amateur films, but they´re very low budget, and i love them.

You seem to be looking for "easy". You use that word often. Of course
it's not easy to find good actors, it's not easy to write a great script, it's
not easy to make a film, you face all sorts of obstacles, and it's very
difficult to make a short film that you are proud of. Nothing about it is
going to be easy or easier.
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I´m looking for easy because i stated that it´s not easy? If i was looking for easy, i would already made something. I´m taking my time because i don´t want anything that´s easy. I wanna do the best that i can with limited resources.
 
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SplinterX said:
You´re saying i closed myself from all amateur features. You´re saying that. I simply said most of the trailers that i watch for amateur features simply have HORRIBLE acting.
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I did say that. Because you said you never watch amateur features.
You judge not by watching the movies but based on the trailer. You
have your reasons. But you cannot say from experience that amateur
features have bad acting when you have in your words, never watched
one.

SplinterX said:
I don´t have 24 hours a day to watch movies, so i have to be a little selective.
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No one has 24 hours a day to watch movies, so we all have to be a
little selective. In my opinion people who want to make movies do
themselves a great service by watching more than just the "good"
movies. Sometimes the discovery can be educational and helpful.



SplinterX said:
Look at The Breakfast Club, Clerks and Following. I don´t know if i would call them amateur films, but they´re very low budget, and i love them.
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The Breakfast Club is a big budget studio (Universal) movie that
used the top talent of the day. “Following” and “Clerks” are very low
budget features that prove some are quite good. My point is only
that someday you may want to expand your movie watching. You
may find there are more very low budget movies out there that
are excellent.

And that goes back to your questions; why do we make them and
who watches them? Now you know.


SplinterX said:
I´m looking for easy because i stated that it´s not easy?
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Yes. It's easy to not make a movie. And you use that word often. It's
difficult to make a movie. It's even difficult to make a bad movie. There
is no easy or easier when it comes to making movies. So I think you're
looking for the easier way.

Good discussion. I look forward to seeing your first short film.
 
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moonshieldmedia said:
I know a lot of people on this forum feel very passionately about marketing but I tend to disagree. Seems to me if you make a good film it will find its audience. A good screenwriter/director could make a film about any subject and it will do well at festivals. At that point marketing can be an afterthought.
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Gah!

Nope.

20120325FilmitAndTheyWillCome.png


Filmmaking IS NOT a meritocracy.

Supporting data:
http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=51111

Note column I : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...WGNZNExVQVRnMkFEbDUxRldlSHc&usp=sharing#gid=0

Note column K : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...MjdCRnVCTU95TXk2Y2NDd3JmS3c&usp=sharing#gid=0

(WIP!) Note column J : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...SThyS1pFRHgxMWUtZVlDR1N3eUE&usp=sharing#gid=1


No.
If your technically fabulous well executed story isn't marketed only the people who worked on it will know about it.

You gotta pimp that sh!t!
Even hookers gotta advertise their services.
(Only milk and bread require almost no advertising. And even then... )


ALSO: http://www.writersstore.com/6-lies-of-film-distribution/
 
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I did say that. Because you said you never watch amateur features.
You judge not by watching the movies but based on the trailer. You
have your reasons. But you cannot say from experience that amateur
features have bad acting when you have in your words, never watched
one.
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I don´t think i´ve ever said that. I said i´ve never watched a feature from a member of this forum. At least that i know of.

And if you think that´s not possible to spot HORRIBLE acting from a trailer, i disagree with you.

No one has 24 hours a day to watch movies, so we all have to be a
little selective. In my opinion people who want to make movies do
themselves a great service by watching more than just the "good"
movies. Sometimes the discovery can be educational and helpful.
Click to expand...

To me, watching a movie should not be painful, no matter what anyone says. And i´ve watched bad movies. I think i have an idea about what a bad movie is. No need to repeat the nightmare over and over again. At least, for me. You do what you think is better for you and for your career. If you think you need to watch piss poor movies in order to be a good filmmaker, then keep watching them.

Yes. It's easy to not make a movie. And you use that word often. It's
difficult to make a movie. It's even difficult to make a bad movie. There
is no easy or easier when it comes to making movies. So I think you're
looking for the easier way.
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I disagree with you. I could pick a couple of my friends and make a bad short, and it would be very easy. I just don´t want to. So, you´re wrong, like it or not, believe it or not. I want it the hard way, not the easy way.

Kiss.
 
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I've been expecting you rayw :) I'll have to go over your data when I have more time.

ChimpPhobiaFilms said:
Do you have any idea how many indie films have failed due to lack of preparation for marketing?
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Well no I don't know the answer to that question because I don't think ANYBODY can know whether a film failed because of poor marketing, or because it just wasn't good.

While it is true that good marketing can make a bad film successful, I do still believe a good film will find its audience, assuming the filmmaker does the minimum requirement of submitting to festivals. Once they start getting into festivals they can start promoting, which is what I meant by "afterthought." I honestly see very little value in spending time and money on a marketing plan before your film is done. IF you have a marketing team and extra money to burn, then yeah go for it (it can only help), but for most no-budget filmmakers I'd say don't waste your resources.
 
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sfoster said:
I remember someone mentioning this before.. was this your film?
One of my ideas is involves a trans character as the main character, would be interesting in hearing how you went about marketing to the community
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I'm thinking that from a marketing standpoint perhaps main characters ought to be people generally having money (for instance, dentists), or willing to splurge for their passions (for instance, gun nuts) this way as you market the film and people identifying with the characters are more likley to have to cash to buy or download your film. If your characters are underdogs or generally without cash marketing targets are harder to find.

In other words I might be rolling in a little more dough if my film was about a gun-toting dentist!
 
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GuerrillaAngel said:
I'm thinking that from a marketing standpoint perhaps main characters ought to be people generally having money (for instance, dentists), or willing to splurge for their passions (for instance, gun nuts) this way as you market the film and people identifying with the characters are more likley to have to cash to buy or download your film. If your characters are underdogs or generally without cash marketing targets are harder to find.

In other words I might be rolling in a little more dough if my film was about a gun-toting dentist!
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There might be some truth to that, but I will still do the trans movie at some point. Also like you I figure I will have to play the main character because I don't think I can get someone else to fill that role adequately :lol:. There's got to be some sort of benefit for catering to niche markets right?
 
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sfoster said:
There's got to be some sort of benefit for catering to niche markets right?
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If the niche doesn't have money, it'll be somewhat short selling yourself when you can easily change the character at no cost while you're still writing the script. But if it's the film you really want to make, go for it.

As one with a hand in the publishing business, niche books depends a lot on the number of people in the niche and whether or not they have money. For instance, special education, small niche, but the money is there -- schools, libraries either have to buy spec ed material or want to cover the topic. There are many people who are employed in that field -- big $$$ upside but not a glamorous topic to write about.
 
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GuerrillaAngel said:
If the niche doesn't have money, it'll be somewhat short selling yourself when you can easily change the character at no cost while you're still writing the script. But if it's the film you really want to make, go for it.
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So basically what i'm hearing here is that the trans community doesn't have a lot of money? That's a shame.

I met some guy online once that ran gay porn websites, he said they were way more profitable than straight porn. But there is a lot of segmentation in lgbt. Hmmm.. Maybe I will make that trans story into a short instead of a feature.
 
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GuerrillaAngel said:
I'm thinking that from a marketing standpoint perhaps main characters ought to be people generally having money (for instance, dentists), or willing to splurge for their passions (for instance, gun nuts) this way as you market the film and people identifying with the characters are more likley to have to cash to buy or download your film. If your characters are underdogs or generally without cash marketing targets are harder to find.

In other words I might be rolling in a little more dough if my film was about a gun-toting dentist!
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This implies a large generalisation that people will go see a movie if they can identify with the main character, despite any other factor.

Whilst identifying with the main character is certainly one of the many, many things that leads to a great script, and a small but important part of creating a great movie, it's certainly not the only reason someone would see a specific film.

Certainly you have genre-niches - and there are whole film festivals that cater to them, for example horror festivals. But, I think it would be folly to make a film about a gun-toting dentist, and expect all dentists, and all gun-nuts to attend.
Although, maybe you could charge a small group of 30 gun-toting dentists $100,000 for a ticket ;)

Certainly, I would be more inclined to watch a movie where the main character is a DP or Focus Puller, but I'm just as likely to watch, and love, a movie where the main character is in fact a Dentist, or a Golfer, or an alien.

Just as all filmmakers don't watch all films associated with filmmaking, or where the main character is a flimmaker, it is perhaps ridiculous to assume or assert that one would watch a film based on such a specific niche.

There are indeed niches, but I think as a filmmaker, you need to think broader - and come up with a great story first. Whilst in general, there are those that love (or hate!) Sci-Fi or Action films, I think as a general rule, people love great stories, whether it be in movies, books or otherwise.

Unless you're talking about teenage girls, then you just need a main character to relate to and it will become a billion-dollar success, right? (I'm looking at you, Twilight ;))
 
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jax_rox said:
There are indeed niches, but I think as a filmmaker, you need to think broader
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Having spent a heck of a lot time marketing films (and a lot of other products) I think I'm a bit savvy of what I need in a film to help it sell. I have no illusions of selling my films to a major distributor, but I do have a vivid picture of earning back all my production costs using other means. And it's happening.
 
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GuerrillaAngel said:
Having spent a heck of a lot time marketing films (and a lot of other products) I think I'm a bit savvy of what I need in a film to help it sell. I have no illusions of selling my films to a major distributor, but I do have a vivid picture of earning back all my production costs using other means. And it's happening.
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Putting things into your movie so it sells, and expecting your movie to sell based purely on the fact that your main character is 'the same' as you are two pretty different things though, no?

I'd love to be proven wrong, if you can show me some stats or provide some examples where movies about dentists or doctors have, overall, made more money than those about homeless or poor people...

I'd especially love to see examples where small-time films about Dentists have made more money than Hollywood films about homeless people, simply because Dentists have more money than homeless people..
 
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