• You are welcome to promote here, but members are also welcome to reply with their opinions.

All your fans belong to me.

Which is why you would use the " Buy Now " button instead.

Answer
This would lock people into paying a set amount which may be our only option in the end but we are trying to avoid that.


I still don't see where they get their figures.... But it's also important to be aware that they don't mention "Unique Visitors". That number could be one person visiting the same site 143 million times. Plus they're talking about all digital media, not just films. Non of that equates to "billions of people looking for movies".

Answer
I'm sorry you don't see where they get their figures from. The links to their research IS at the bottom of their page.

In saying that, if you did the maths which you just provided of 143 million clicks a day, and say that each click and refresh of page on a super fast computer and connection
takes 1 second per click...the maths of one person clicking a mouse within a 24 hour period would make one user capable of clicking approximately 86,400 times in one day if
we were not allowing for tiredness, toilet stops, food stops, resting etc. I of course include my maths for this... 24 (hours) times 60 ( minutes in an hour ) times 60 again ( seconds per minute ) is how I reached that number. This would mean that technically, every day you would need 1,656 people working a 24 hour shift with no rest etc to achieve what you have just described.



If I give to a charity, they are the end user of that money. With Kickstarter, I give my money to a business where everything is clear and visible to myself and the public. They handle the transaction, and money switches accounts. You want people to pay money into your bank account, then hope it finds its way to the person they actually wanted to pay. That'd be like me giving £10 to a stranger and asking it to pass it on to a friend of mine if they happen to see him.

Answer
We are a business too. We are above board, visible and clear also.

Charities are not the end user, the people they are trying to help are...in theory...
The figures in reality on charity donation are pretty shoddy these days. I have read that at best, 50% of donations actually make it to the people it was intended to help. With some charities, it is as low as 10%.

Also kickstarter etc. You don't deposit the money directly into the end users account. It goes through kickstarter.

In fact if we are being blunt, even selling your stuff through Amazon, the result is the same. Amazon or iTunes or whoever you go through collect the money and pass it on minus their take...

You are effectively ruling yourself out of using a lot of services with this thinking.



So what are your actual estimates?

Answer
I would say perhaps in the first year we would hope to get around 20-30 films, second year, we would be hope to see around the same number again while retaining what we already have which would put us at around 40-60 films and on it goes. The more content we get, the more people like yourself will see that this works so we expect it to have a bit of a snowball effect.



So how will anybody see any of these films? I think your underestimates are actually pretty wild overestimates.

Answer
Interesting. Lets agree to disagree. I have already explained how people will see these films. Torrents that they will find because of our site and our marketing.

I do have a question for you though.
How many films have you made?
How did you distribute them?
What level of success did that bring in fan numbers and financial numbers?

I only ask out of interest because what I am finding is typically, as much as people like yourself have concerns about how we run our ship, they have often not found a
distribution model that actually does work better. If you have, we would love to know what you did to make it work.
 
Last edited:
What is the marketing plan?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rayw View Post
What marketing plan specifics can you provide to potential content providers?
Venues.
Their ad programs.
PPM and/or PPC frequency.
SEO.
Other.

What have you already mapped out for your branding strategy?

Thank you.
GOOD question.

-Metro Magazine - A UK based film magazine with tonnes of readers.

-Bus and Billboard promotions. Because people notice large visual adverts.

-PPC or pay per click is a waste of time. Most people have add blocker now.
Thats why we will avoid online add's, they are often blocked from view.

-PPM? - probalistic package marketing. To be frank I am not up to play on PPM. I can learn quickly enough once I understand a little more about it.

-Tv adverts once we get to that point.

-At content appropriate festivals around the world. Again once we get to that point.
 
INITIALLY some undefined magazine ads and some undefined town buses.


Should really send the targeted indie film audience a-runnin' for their computers.


I meant Empire magazine. For some reason I had it in my head as metro...I apologize.

Town buses etc locations are dependant on budget. we don't yet know our budget so we cannot yet decide where those will be.
 
Last edited:
I meant Empire magazine. For some reason I had it in my head as metro...I apologize.
It happens.
No biggie.

However, I'm disappointed there's no mention of placement, dimension, or frequency within Empire.
http://www.bauer-media.com.au/empire.htm

http://www.bauer-media.com.au/media...41824&specs=0&profile=0&digital=0&deadlines=0
Wow.
Half-page ad's gonna cost you AUD$2,930 a pop.
Or for a skosh over AUD$4,115 for a full page.
Ho-leee shitake mushrooms, Batman!

Plus graphic design fees.

Have you got different numbers than this?


Town buses etc locations are dependant on budget. we don't yet know our budget so we cannot yet decide where those will be.
Oh, so that's also after the INITIAL Empire magazine ad's a >AUD$3-4k per month.

Advertising in Empire won't also be dependent on budget, right?
You have a commitment letter, statement, or legal bond to substantiate this.


Yeah, you're gonna need well over 100 AUD$35 submissions a month just to pay for advertising of the select few! :yes:

Wow. That's a lotta work!
Respect. :yes:
What other forums are you posting this call out on?
 
Oh, so that's also after the INITIAL Empire magazine ad's a >AUD$3-4k per month.

Advertising in Empire won't also be dependent on budget, right?
You have a commitment letter, statement, or legal bond to substantiate this.

we do intend to advertise there and yea we had seen the figures.
We wanted to go the full page so that in those ad's we could place pictures of films we already host.

We haven't approached them yet though. We wanted to run the site past people like yourself first before we go approaching the big guns, and build the proper site as I mention here in my last comment below.


Yeah, you're gonna need well over 100 AUD$35 submissions a month just to pay for advertising of the select few! :yes:

We were hoping to see if we could do spot adds ie month on month off or some such.

Wow. That's a lotta work!
Respect. :yes:
What other forums are you posting this call out on?

In short, you guys are the lucky first.
We considered this to be the concepts baptism of fire and we knew that putting it here on this forum which is for me and Metro basically our online film home, we would get a lot of comments that we could then take away to consider.

Obviously it was better to have a functioning site and domain before bringing this to Indie Talk because otherwise it was all just talk. We wanted a working model, albeit basic, to show that we could actually build and deliver on our proposal.

The model was indeed built on a wordpress site, with basic coding, and hosted on godaddy which is known to be slow. But it was also very cheap to host for a month while we put the idea out there.

The next step now is to go back off to our computers and begin building a superior site on a better hosting service.

We now know that there are some crucial elements we need to consider.

1-The overall look of the site.
We knew this was always going to be a biggie for everyone.

2-Less text, more video
This kind of ties in with the visual but its a matter of content also.

3-Pricing and service
This will need to be looked at to see if we can improve what we offer and find some way for producers to
see an instant return on their $30 fee.

4-Ease of use
The fact that people didn't make it all the way around the site shows us that we need a far clearer layout.

5-Presentation
The way we outlined our service seemed to confuse some people. We need to find a way to make it clearer and present it better.

6-Marketing
We leaked news of the site to one or two torrent sites, facebook communities, and other places we won't yet disclose (our ace up the sleeve so to speak) to see what sort of hit rate we get off those links. That too needs to be reassessed because the hit rates from facebook were almost non existent. The hit rate from torrent sites and those other non disclosed places however was fantastic. It did not end in membership sign ups, most likely due to the issues above, but I think that the next time we do this, with a better site, it should grow quickly.


So as mentioned above, only when we have this right will we actually approach the likes of Empire Magazine, as well as other online forums such as this one. At that time it will no doubt be appropriate to introduce ourselves under our real identities also so that you guys understand who exactly you are dealing with.


In short, this discussion has bought a lot of very positive results. We can see where we need to head with our final build. And we now know our weaknesses. I think that within a short time we will be back here with a new website to flick across for another baptism, and after that, and any last fixes, we will then go ahead and do the proper launch.
 
here's the rub on Amazon. Amazon doesn't give a damn if your film does well or not.....

....Lets say for instance you list your film on Amazon. Lets say you list it at $12 for a dvd disk and you sell 1000 copies..... I am convinced we beat Amazon hands down apples for apples, but if you aren't convinced, then at least use us as the second bullet in your gun.

The strength about Amazon is their fulfillment system. If you're not handling DVD fulfillment (which I assume you're not) then it's not apples for apples. I'm also fairly sure Amazon doesn't use torrents to distribute.

So yes you have millions of potential customers but what you don't have is millions of people visiting that site to find their next favourite film.

Access to thousands - billions of people pacifically looking for enjoyable films in torrent form. billions is not over estimating it. Any look into the numbers backs this up.

I don't think there are billions of people that own torrent enabled devices in the world. I don't think the majority of the world can afford it.

Torrents add a lot of problems to the equation. First and foremost, is there a strategy to disassociate the word torrent from Piracy and stealing? Aren't you concerned that when you use the name torrent, you're targeting an audience that has little to no intention of paying? Don't you think your potential clients may be concerned with this?

Even if all that wasn't a problem, I cannot think of a single method that protects you from those torrents spreading to other torrent sites, thus avoiding your "call to action" to donate if they enjoyed the film.

Last question on torrents. If exposure was the aim, why wouldn't someone go to the largest torrent site and just upload it there and politely ask for donations if they like the final product? I assume the leader is still Pirate Bay?

To put it a different way - how many people torrent multi-million-dollar Hollywood movies without paying for them? Millions of people? What percentage of those think that it's worthy of their monetary support and then go and pay for the film? 5%? 10%? Even 20%? ..... If the majority of people were kind-hearted enough to donate to a movie after they'd already torrented it and watched it for free, do you think the studios would be going after those people so aggressively?

There are case studies that showed that smaller films have benefited from their film hitting torrent sites. While the numbers of people converting to paying customers I'd assume is very low (if any), the exposure, if done right and capitalized right can turn into sales. I suspect the donation model won't work, as a big component is the conversion to sales through the buzz and marketing the torrents brought movies, not the donations that came from that market.

It doesn't work for the studio films as they've already created their own exposure through advertising and promotion.

One, it gives us a financial basis ie your $15 or $30 fee on which to market the site from day dot. Two, by having a price there, we are confident that the average teen who has filmed his brother swinging a light saber in the back yard is not going to send his footage in. He will upload it to youtube for free as he has always done. This means that really only serious film and music producers will even apply.

There's a basic premise of sales. Removing the barrier to entry. When you're new and have to build up credibility, you have to remove, each and every barrier to entry. When you're getting too many responses to handle, then it's ok to raise a barrier or two and continue do to so until you've reached the correct balance.

You're at the pre-start up phase. If your business model is to get the clients to pay up front and stiff them, you at least need to build up a base where you appear successful up front. At the moment, you're a ghost town with no success stories, there is little to no reason for someone to sign up to your service. If you're going to continue, you need to think long and hard about this.

You need to work out where the majority of your money will come from. The cut of the donations or the up front fees. If it's the up front fees, then I suspect people will see through your operation and walk away. If you're going to make the majority of your money from the donations, why on earth are you scaring everyone away by demanding they take all (by paying you the fee to be considered) the risk?

Next issue, expecting only serious producers to apply... umm... where do I start there. Serious producers tend to understand marketing, distribution windows, what the goals for each window is etc. While you may get a serious producer on board, I don't see it happening until they've exhausted all other windows, and also assumes they don't see any value in ongoing distribution.

-PPC or pay per click is a waste of time. Most people have add blocker now.
Thats why we will avoid online add's, they are often blocked from view.

This makes me want to cry. Does it matter if they don't see your advert? You're only paying for results. If they don't see it, they cannot click on it. They don't click, you don't pay. Aren't those who don't block the adverts more susceptible to the advertising or are you assuming everyone is exactly like you?

I am sorry for making such a long answer but it was necessary to properly tell you why we are the right choice.

While I'm sure you won't see it this way, I have to question your sales abilities. I saw multiple instances where you stated the problem, built it up and ignored where you were to explain why you were the obvious choice.

Another point, you're a filmmaker. What happens to your distribution business (and everyone elses film) when you're making a film? What happens to those paid submissions when you're spending a month or more making a film? Will there be employees?

While I applaud you to come up with an idea I haven't seen before, from what I can see, it's a business model that has more plot holes than a typical no budget film. If I were you, I'd stop wasting time on it and find something else to concentrate on.
 
.... .... .... .....
While I applaud you to come up with an idea I haven't seen before, from what I can see, it's a business model that has more plot holes than a typical no budget film. If I were you, I'd stop wasting time on it and find something else to concentrate on.

The entire quote was pertinent but I have chopped it down to save page space.

I will think about all you have said here.

For the record though, my goal is not to "stiff" anyone...why would I want to screw over my customers...more then that, why would I, a guy who wants to make films and is going to make films myself, stiff over my fellow indie artists....please think more carefully before posting another sentence like that one because I actually took offence to that.
 
I'm surprised that is what you took away from my post, but you get that.

That little snipped is more to do with business model you've chosen than a reflection of you. When you're charging your customers without giving them a product or service in return, you're screwing your customers. A lot of big business make a lot of money doing that, so it's far from illegal (though I do think it's immoral and it's not something I' happy to be a part of), but it's still the black and white explanation of the situation. If you take offense to your own business model, maybe it isn't a business model you should be using.

You have to be able to live with yourself. That is really important. We all need to be able to sleep at night. I'm sure the last thing you want is to have a bunch of filmmakers thinking you're a scam. It's what most filmmakers think about distributors. You need to decide if you want to stand out from the pack or just find another way to nickle and dime and screw the small filmmaker.

I do see you have costs. I see the need to recover those costs. The relationship between filmmaker and distributor is an antagonistic one at best. Some filmmakers play the game well, most do not and one way or another get screwed in the end.

There are several problems you'll have as a distributor.

One is you have an automatic reputation of screwing the filmmaker. It's what distributors tend to do in the long run. It's not that they're evil people, they're simply looking out for their own interests. It's a mathematics thing. Filmmakers are automatically going to distrust you since they read a lot of horror stories regarding distribution.

Another problem you have is the amount of chaff that is out there. It takes people power to weed out most of that chaff. There are simple techniques that distributors use to weed through it, though you will miss the occasional diamond in the rough.

The biggest reason I told you to give up on this idea is based on money. You should go through the numbers, but I'd hazard a guess that a great film may get $1k in donations. At 15% that's a grand total of $150. Take out merchant fees, wages, costs, advertising money, infrastructure, you've probably made a nett loss of a few grand. Increase that to a hugely successful movie, lets assume it gets $10k in donations, that will decrease your loss a bit, but that's not going to be a sustainable model unless you figure out a way to drive up numbers or diddle people along the way. Your projections may be way off, but you need to know your numbers before you get into this.

Those films that you're going to get submitted to you are those who have no other choices. This will mean, they'll be those who really don't have commercial viability. Do you really want to be in this situation?

Your last challenge which I'm sure you don't know how you're going to get around.... Any film worth touching will be able to get a better offer from a larger distributor who knows how to monetize a good to great film. Are you going to be able to look someone in the eye and say, "This is your best option?" knowing their best option is a large myriad of options that are already out there?

One thing I will note. One of your points was spot on, though I don't feel you pushed the point home enough. Building and being able to communicate with their fan base is of critical importance. Most filmmakers don't understand how important this is. Most decent options out there cost a lot of money on a recurring basis. (eg. aweber). If you weren't thinking that way, maybe I read too much into your post.

I'll leave you with this little tidbit. You're much more likely to earn more money in filming as a gaffer/grip/soundie[insert almost any filming trade] than you will as a distributor in the method you're talking.

You seem to be a nice guy. Very few nice guys make it in distribution. I think you've just gone into this haphazardly. You're walking into a world of hurt and and disappointment and I don't think you realize that yet.

If you continue along this path, I wish you all the best.
 
........rest of post....
If you continue along this path, I wish you all the best.

No, I honestly took far more then that. I just kept the quote short as I have this one for spaces sake.

It was the one comment I took offence at. The rest I completely got where you are coming from, as I do now with that comment as you have explained it a bit further. I can also understand that some things just take so long to type that it feels like a full time job just to do it so I can understand why you didn't break it down in this way to begin with..

With that said...

I went to metro with the idea for this concept of distribution being torrents.

We had both seen, read, and heard various conversations on here and elsewhere to do with distribution and the idea of our films not being seen under the flood of other stuff worried us. We simply want our films to be made and seen, just like every other film maker.

We discussed at length the idea then of embracing the download community because effectively what we saw is that most films get pirated anyway, but we needed a way to insure that there was a standard kept so that any relationship built with customers could be maintained. We felt that this might lead to donations.

We realized that everyone else was in the same boat, and that by all working together and bunching our films together we could give fans one place to find all of us instead of all trying to do our utmost as individuals to get their attention.

But again, we couldn't just make it a free for all as youtube does because we would risk having good stuff drowned out by a deluge of bad.

Further instead of me taking my marketing budget and metro taking his and you taking yours, we felt that the best thing to do was to pool the money and do one marketing campaign that covered everyone under one umbrella with a point made to give each and every film under this umbrella an equal amount of exposure via our monthly trailers.

We figured we could probably do that on $30 each if there were enough of us.

We then realized that we shouldn't limit that exposure to films, but allow music artists in also. Giving us all another bonus, ie music artists an ability to find movie makers for their music video's and film artists able to find songs for their films.

It was a utopian idea.

Where I am personally sitting on this right now, and I can't speak for metro because I have not been able to sit down with him today, but where I sit personally on this is that I still believe that film makers assisting eachother globally is the only way for us to all get ahead. I have no interest in ripping anyone off. I just want my films and your films to have good fan-bases, be enjoyed around the world, and hopefully make enough money for each and every one of us to recoup our investments and perhaps profit if we can. I understand the irony of me using "only" in that sentence as if it is some simple thing.

If I/we are on the wrong track, great, its good to know that now before we do more, but lets not drop this idea of working together if there is something to be gained from it for all of us. if I/we are not the best to lead it, so be it, I personally will step aside and let somebody else take the reigns. I don't speak for Metro so I cannot say "we"...thats his decision to consider.

My frustration here is not that you guys won't pay me $30 bucks, my frustration is that if my idea is not the way to fix the sinking ship, then what is???

I am frustrated because I want our films to be enjoyed and loved as I enjoy and love them.

How is it with all of our imagination, understanding, adaptability, and combined knowledge, how is it that we do not have an answer to this????
 
Last edited:
Further instead of me taking my marketing budget and metro taking his and you taking yours, we felt that the best thing to do was to pool the money and do one marketing campaign that covered everyone under one umbrella with a point made to give each and every film under this umbrella an equal amount of exposure via our monthly trailers.

We figured we could probably do that on $30 each if there were enough of us.

It won't really work that way. $30 really isn't enough to make a dint. You could have $30k and you'd still be in the same ballpark. $300k you're starting in a different ballpark. $3mil is where you're starting to talk real numbers and results. I'm talking marketing budgets (P&A) here.

The issue about a combined interest is each film is different. Most films will have different strategies that will work best to do grass roots marketing. It's when you start hitting the big 8 figure marketing budgets where you're now talking about a mass market product and there is less and less difference, though most of us don't have $10mil+ to pony up for advertising. So lets ignore that potential solution, it just isn't realistic.

Where I am personally sitting on this right now, and I can't speak for metro because I have not been able to sit down with him today, but where I sit personally on this is that I still believe that film makers assisting eachother globally is the only way for us to all get ahead. [snip] I just want my films and your films to have good fan-bases, be enjoyed around the world, and hopefully make enough money for each and every one of us to recoup our investments and perhaps profit if we can. I understand the irony of me using "only" in that sentence as if it is some simple thing.

Honest answer. Stop worrying about others and worry about yourself. No one is responsible for your future more than you are. People are inherently greedy beings. Expecting different is just asking for disappointment. Want to test that? Ask 100 people this: I have a thousand dollars to give, no strings attached. Would you prefer it to go to you or (point at a random person they don't know) that person? It sucks to be cynical like that, but reality is where we live.


My frustration here is not that you guys won't pay me $30 bucks, my frustration is that if my idea is not the way to fix the sinking ship, then what is???

I am frustrated because I want our films to be enjoyed and loved as I enjoy and love them.

How is it with all of our imagination, understanding, adaptability, and combined knowledge, how is it that we do not have an answer to this????


I heard someone mention something. I've since paraphrased the conversation. What's the way to get a $500mil budget to make a movie? A). Make the Titanic. What's the way to get the budget to make the Titanic? A). Make Terminator 2 (or whatever was the previous block buster to that). What's the best way get a budget to make Terminator 2? Make the first movie on a shoestring and make it profitable.

It's a different time now, though one thing that has never changed. There are always investors looking for people to invest in with a track record of making a profit. Basically said, money follows money. If you want to make a good living from filmmaking, your most important skill needs to be to make movies that make money.

Once you learn that, take $5k (or less if you can), beg, borrow and steal to make a movie. Do whatever it takes to ensure that movie makes a profit. Leverage that.

This style isn't for everyone. There are people out there that want to make art. That's fine. I'm not against people making artistic films. Most of them have no hope in hell of making a profit. There's nothing saying a profitable movie has to be dreadful, in fact, I'm of the opinion that a high quality movie massively increases your chance to profit. Learn what will make a movie make a profit.

As a filmmaker I don't see a reason to reinvent the wheel. There are many movies out there making money, all the way from studio block busters, all the way down to tiny independent films. Why not just work out what they do and do the same?
 
Back
Top