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All your fans belong to me.

Did that title grab your attention? great!!! job done!!!

That's marketing. Grabbing the attention of your target market
long enough to get them to stop and listen to what you have to say.

Onto the service offered...

Film and Music Distribution.

The service speaks for itself.

-$30 per film entered and we keep 15% of donations made.

-$15 per album entered and we keep 15% of donations made.

-Everything else is completely free for both you and your fans. No hidden or ongoing costs.

-Every film we promote gets its own promotion page and mention that months promo trailer.

-You keep all rights to your films and material.

-You have a way to profit from your films with donations, coupled with your own profit from elsewhere.

-We market globally both online and out in the real world.

-We pick and choose what goes onto the site to maintain a level of production standards.

www.indiefilmtorrents.com
 
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This looks incredibly been there, done that. There have been plenty of sites like this, most of which fail. Unless you have some amazing advertising and marketing tricks up your sleeve, the future for the site looks bleak.
 
This looks incredibly been there, done that. There have been plenty of sites like this, most of which fail. Unless you have some amazing advertising and marketing tricks up your sleeve, the future for the site looks bleak.

Sorry that you feel it is a "been there, done that" site.

Perhaps if you wait a while, you will see...

As for marketing and advertising tricks. Yes, we have a few.

Thanks
 
No, I mean the title thing you alluded to in your first post, but then removed

I meant the title of this post where your mouse hovers over a post and you can see a preview as a feature of indietalk.

On my laptop, using chrome, whenever my mouse hovers over a post title in the forums menu, I see a box that is a preview of what is in the post.
 
I don't know if you want advice but if you do, the site looks far too basic at present.

E.g. when you visit the home page you are greeted by a wall of text with hardly any graphics - apart from the title graphics.

E.g. even the donation page tells you how to donate via paypal yet including a Paypal donate button would have been much easier, and is actually very easy to code.
 
I don't know if you want advice but if you do, the site looks far too basic at present.

E.g. when you visit the home page you are greeted by a wall of text with hardly any graphics - apart from the title graphics.

E.g. even the donation page tells you how to donate via paypal yet including a Paypal donate button would have been much easier, and is actually very easy to code.

Yea I've been around here for a while now Paul as has the other guy involved in this. Some of you will know him as Metro Star, others like myself by his actual name. Certainly we are more then happy to lay it all on the table with you guys and hear what you think is an issue.

Certainly the lack of graphical content is a cause of frustration for us also at the moment but our main goal was to get a site, delivery system, and marketing system up and online that is integrated properly and working. Once we get some time to go over this, then we will be upgrading graphics on the site to make it look a lot more visually exciting.

We certainly did look into the actual donate button that paypal provides but the kicker there for not using it is that basically after 10k worth of 'donations' paypal would want proof of what these donations are to be used for in relation to charity. Now while its just simple wording on the explanation of that button, on their site, to us it effectively ruled out the use of that button because we would be passing donations onto for instance yourself if a donation came through for you. This could be difficult to justify as a charity lol.

I understand there is the option to supply your own button within their system, but that would from my understanding work on the coding of a purchase button, which would mean us setting a set amount, which of course is not ideal for a donation button. Its true that we could perhaps look at a few buttons built on such code for instance a $5, $10, $15, and a $20 custom donation button and that may be the work around on that issue that we are forced to go with but in a perfect world we would not restrict donations by only allowing set amounts to be donated. Thats the main reason we went the way we did instead of slapping together a button just to have a nice tidy button sitting there.

Coming back to the graphics or lack of, the site is set up on a very basic framework at the moment. Once we get going, we can build a far more visually rich environment on another server and when that is complete we could make the switch over which is certainly the plan at this point.

For now though, we wanted to get the basic framework up, get some feedback from the indie talk community because this is like our online home, and basically see where people like yourself thought we should go with it.

The end goal of course would be to have all of those site benefits in a simple video strapped to the homepage, however as of yet, we just haven't made that video yet. We will wait until we have a banner that we are prepared to stick with, and then you will probably end up with a fine video featuring yours sincerely, suited up to professionally represent the site and all it has to offer.
 
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I meant the title of this post where your mouse hovers over a post and you can see a preview as a feature of indietalk.
Ahh, see now that wasn't clear. So, yes, that works... but still, what was the point? I don't see how what shows in that post preview has anything to do with attention to detail, really.

For now though, we wanted to get the basic framework up, get some feedback from the indie talk community because this is like our online home, and basically see where people like yourself thought we should go with it.
I don't think a very basic wordpress site is likely to instill much confidence in people. While they've tried to position themselves a little differently in recent years, wordpress is primarily a blogging platform, that's it.

I dunno.. I guess I don't see the point. For example, why should I pay you to add my film to your system when I could just as easily put it somewhere that already has a HUGE amount of traffic, amazon?

You don't have that level of traffic, and while you will, ideally, have more focused traffic, with proper keywording, etc there's no reason a mediocre no budget film couldn't make a tidy profit on amazon even with minimal marketing.

What's your hook? What makes you different? What makes your site special -- right now, nothing.
 
Ahh, see now that wasn't clear. So, yes, that works... but still, what was the point? I don't see how what shows in that post preview has anything to do with attention to detail, really.


I don't think a very basic wordpress site is likely to instill much confidence in people. While they've tried to position themselves a little differently in recent years, wordpress is primarily a blogging platform, that's it.

I dunno.. I guess I don't see the point. For example, why should I pay you to add my film to your system when I could just as easily put it somewhere that already has a HUGE amount of traffic, amazon?

You don't have that level of traffic, and while you will, ideally, have more focused traffic, with proper keywording, etc there's no reason a mediocre no budget film couldn't make a tidy profit on amazon even with minimal marketing.

What's your hook? What makes you different? What makes your site special -- right now, nothing.

Yea ok. I was trying to be clever to get certain sentences into the preview box to act as a teaser. It seems I was perhaps trying to be too clever for myself. Ah well, not really important.

The important thing is the basic concept here that we are discussing. There cannot be any cleverness/sillyness involved when it comes to handling the projects of others and how they are viewed.

You have unfortunately asked a question that takes takes a bit of writing to answer so I apologize if my answer is a bit of a chore.

Your question is bang on, but in a way it answers itself. I don't mean that to sound facetious but the problem of sites like Amazon is three fold.

Problem one. Millions of viewers.
While that may seem like a great thing to get in front of, the fact is this, if I want a camera I go to Amazon, if I want a book I go to Amazon, if I want a toothbrush...you guessed it, I go to Amazon. So yes you have millions of potential customers but what you don't have is millions of people visiting that site to find their next favourite film. For me then advertising on there is as affective as standing in the middle of New York with a poster saying "Hi I made a movie" because it doesn't matter how cleverly you word it, we can assume that at a minimum 50% of those people coming through that site are not there to find a film, let alone an Indie film that isn't chock full of Hollywood superstars. I'm not saying your film isn't good, but what I am saying is that your ideal marketing situation is not Amazon.

Problem 2. Mediocre no budget film
Lets say for instance you make a mediocre no budget film that is still enjoyable, still has just enough spark to carry it through the rough patches. That's a good thing, that's the kind of content that we are after. But here's the rub on Amazon. Amazon doesn't give a damn if your film does well or not. They don't watch it when you upload it and they don't watch all the other films uploaded. What does this mean for you? It puts you in bad company because the floodgate is open on Amazon for really crappy content to be put on there. This would be like standing in the middle of New York, with a sign saying "I made a movie" while people all around you for as far as the eye can see, pedal potentially terrible crap upon passers by, making your chance of discovery, no matter how well worded, almost impossible.

Problem 3. Marketing
You said it yourself, with some minimal marketing you could make a tidy profit. Unfortunately the figures don't generally back that up so while you technically could, the question is will you? Its important to think of the big picture too. Lets say for instance you list your film on Amazon. Lets say you list it at $12 for a dvd disk and you sell 1000 copies. I would be impressed if you managed that, and you would net $12,000 before Amazon takes their percentage and the tax man comes calling. I'm not going to lay out the numbers because I think we all basically know them by now anyway and what you are then left with. Still not bad, but out of that 1000 copies sold, how many of those people are going to feel annoyed that they paid $12 for your film? We can't answer that but we know that's there. Second, how many of your dvd's will end up being pirated online? Again we can't estimate a number but we can be damn sure that its certain to happen if your film is even halfway enjoyable. The other remaining customers will rate your film somewhere between 'not bad' and awesome and chances are you won't hear much more about it.

Now stop.

Thats about the state of the current film distribution market in a nutshell.

Its over crowded. People are marketing in the wrong places wasting time and effort trying to attract people that are not interested. They are trying to run mass marketing campaigns on a minimal budget in the hope of catching the attention of passers by, and they are being surrounded by millions of others trying to do the same. They are also assisted by people who don't give a damn if they do well or not in cases. As if that's not all enough to break the camels back, they are trying to sell what people can and do acquire for free on a daily basis in numbers that make even Hollywoods coffer fillers worried for their futures.

But Hollywood has something you don't, and its the reason people shopping on Amazon are looking for the latest Brad Pitt film. Its the assurance that even if the story is crap, at least the footage, audio, and acting meet a certain standard. You can't tell an entire crowd that your film meets a standard because firstly you can't get their attention and even if you can, many won't be convinced in the seconds you have to attempt to convince them.


So lets start again.

-Assurance of a certain standard of quality. We don't let film on that doesn't meet it. This assures you that the flood of sludge won't smother your work, and it assures our viewers that no matter what they download through us it is going to be reasonable.

-Access to thousands - billions of people pacifically looking for enjoyable films in torrent form. billions is not over estimating it. Any look into the numbers backs this up.

-Marketing specifically to people desiring film. Film related magazines, on-line and festival marketing as well as videos pointing back to our site on each and every torrent regardless of how far it spreads. Would your micro budget cover that?

-Direct access to your fan group. We provide that if you desire or you can have that degree of separation simply by allowing us to handle communication between you and your fans.

-We give a damn. Our films go through the same judgement process as yours to see if they make it onto the site. If they do, we want our films to be in good company with good reputation and large fan bases attached to that site.

-Competitions with the chance to win cash, gear, offers, titles of best film of the year etc.

-Also we do music too. You ever heard a song and knew that asking to use it was a waste of time? What if you knew the artist was an indie band that you had a very fast way to talk to through the same site you used to assist the promotion of your own material? It would make sourcing music, or even music artists a lot quicker and easier for you.


I am sorry for making such a long answer but it was necessary to properly tell you why we are the right choice.

In the end though, your choice on distribution is a business decision. Choosing to sell it on Amazon, doubly so. So even if the only thing you agree on is that we will get numbers. Doesn't it make sense to double your exposure by using us as well as any other marketing you are undertaking?

Hell, be smart about it even. Have your latest film on Amazon for 6 months and your film before that through us. At least that way your material gets a real run through the torrent world with a chance to still benefit you financially, that also allows you to see where that torrent is going.

I am convinced we beat Amazon hands down apples for apples, but if you aren't convinced, then at least use us as the second bullet in your gun. It just makes good business sense. I would bet though that in the end, you will have more fans and dollars in the bank through us then you will through Amazon. Why? because our clients are not forced to pay just to give you a chance. But do a good enough job and I am confident your donations will do you well, as will any books, merchandising and hard copies you sell, because you keep full rights to it all anyway.
 
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So explain how if I'm paying to list my film in your system, and users are able to access it for free (words from your site), I make money by doing so?

To me that kind of sounds like YOU make money ... :D
 
Yes, the title grabbed my attention.

Since this is for music as well I feel concerned.

The site states that you (the content provider) have to pay 15 $ for music and 30 $ dollars to the site owner for a film only to be considered.

Then you get 85% of donations which may or may not be given.

You will pay the fee, even if your film will not be exposed.

So the owner makes money in any case with no engagement from his side - one thousand desperate filmmakers - 30.000,00 $$, plus one thousand composers, 45.000,00 $$.

Personally I would never pay only to be considered (independently by whom), it's too easy to make money this way.

If your marketing can sell our productions then just take a percentage of the sales.
 
So explain how if I'm paying to list my film in your system, and users are able to access it for free (words from your site), I make money by doing so?

To me that kind of sounds like YOU make money ... :D

People can donate through us to you.
We keep 15% of such donations but the rest comes to you with no excuses.

Crowd funding has proven that donations do happen when people feel that projects are worth their support.

I'm not going to try to sugar coat this. The fact is, this is a business venture and we do intend to profit financially or our efforts just as you do from your work. But the long and short of it is that for at least the first year we would expect to be putting most if not all money coming in directly back into the company for marketing, competition prizes that can include expensive equipment, cash etc, and of course site upkeep and upgrade costs that will bring us that graphically rich environment that we all want to have up online.

Plus, all we are providing is the footage. That leaves you open to sell books, and other film related paraphernalia at your discretion. We simply assist in building the fan base that might buy that.
 
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People can donate through us to you.
We keep 15% of such donations but the rest comes to you with no excuses.
If people decide to donate.

Crowd funding has proven that donations do happen when people feel that projects are worth their support.

Here's the big difference: Crowdfunding is generally to get a project made, or finished. I can't think of one crowdfunded movie where the movie is completed and donations are asked as a way of 'purchasing' the film.

To put it a different way - how many people torrent multi-million-dollar Hollywood movies without paying for them? Millions of people? What percentage of those think that it's worthy of their monetary support and then go and pay for the film? 5%? 10%? Even 20%?

Even if it were 30% - let's stack the numbers up. I pay you $30 to look at my film and hopefully you put it up. 100 people watch it. Of those 30% might consider donating some money to it. So ~33 people decide to donate $5. I make ~$165. Minus the $30 submission fee, so I've made $135.

Or I could go and sell 100 DVDs for $12 ea. I've made $1200. And if the person hates it, they've already paid for it - they're not making their decision about whether or not they want to pay for the film based on their own morality and how good the film is.

If the majority of people were kind-hearted enough to donate to a movie after they'd already torrented it and watched it for free, do you think the studios would be going after those people so aggressively?

And that's for movies that are at least half-decent..

billions of people pacifically looking for enjoyable films in torrent form. billions is not over estimating it

When you say billions I imagine you're talking about the plural of billion, so let's say ~3billion people. I'd love to see the numbers that show that nearly half the world's population are looking for low-budget indie films, and willing to donate $5-$20 for it.


At the very basic level, you're faced with a major dilemma - people are not going to venture to your website to watch things without content present.
But, people aren't going to pay to have their film submitted without a viewer base.

So how are you going to get around this? All the marketing in the world doesn't make up for a lack of content on a website dedicated to content hosting. But what incentive does one have to pay to submit a film to a website that lacks viewers? How can you possibly vet films for 'quality assurance' - you're hardly in a position where you can pick and choose what goes on your website when you have no other content...

And surely simply wading through the PayPal donations to ensure they end up with the correct content creator is going to be a full time job given the amount of traffic you expect (billions?).
 
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Yes, the title grabbed my attention.

Since this is for music as well I feel concerned.

The site states that you (the content provider) have to pay 15 $ for music and 30 $ dollars to the site owner for a film only to be considered.

Then you get 85% of donations which may or may not be given.

You will pay the fee, even if your film will not be exposed.

So the owner makes money in any case with no engagement from his side - one thousand desperate filmmakers - 30.000,00 $$, plus one thousand composers, 45.000,00 $$.

Personally I would never pay only to be considered (independently by whom), it's too easy to make money this way.

If your marketing can sell our productions then just take a percentage of the sales.


Ok, thats a little unfair. You cannot claim that we have no engagement when we have spent a long time researching this, and time and money building and hosting the site. Especially when we have built this site because we believe it is the best way to get our own films noticed also ( as long as they meet the standard ) which makes us as invested in its and your success as you are. We have to date handed over a lot more then $30 each I can assure you.

Onto why we charge off the bat...

One, it gives us a financial basis ie your $15 or $30 fee on which to market the site from day dot.

Two, by having a price there, we are confident that the average teen who has filmed his brother swinging a light saber in the back yard is not going to send his footage in. He will upload it to youtube for free as he has always done. This means that really only serious film and music producers will even apply.

That straight away cuts down the amount of footage and audio we have to sit through which is what allows us to do actually really watch and listen to everything coming in, which in turn keeps that level of quality in place which this whole thing hangs on. its crucial that we do NOT have thousands sending in footage. If that happened we could never handle it all.

We do NOT sell your productions at all, we allow people to watch and listen to them for free.
We are here to help you build a fan base that you can then potentially profit off in the form of donations, sales etc etc.

Thirdly, to prey on the hopes of others for profit in the way that you say, is sadly a reality that is happening all of the time. To us that is wrong, which is why we set up our site. Yes its true that if your film or song is not good enough we will not show it, if that puts you off, then we suggest you do not use our service until you have seen what we do show on our site and are confident that your level of skill matches it. As long as it does, there is no reason why we would not put your material on our site.

lastly, yes there is the potential to make $75,000 off the numbers you provide. But you forget that $75,000 US dollars is not going into our pocket. That's not my money. That's not Metro's money. That's company money that is for company expenses such as site upgrades and marketing. That money is paid to the company for a service that we are then legally obligated to provide.
 
we are confident that the average teen who has filmed his brother swinging a light saber in the back yard is not going to send his footage in. He will upload it to youtube for free as he has always done.
...where he has instant access to a highly established website, with an established fan base of potential billions.

I understand you're thinking long-term, but what's the incentive now?
 
If people decide to donate.



Here's the big difference: Crowdfunding is generally to get a project made, or finished. I can't think of one crowdfunded movie where the movie is completed and donations are asked as a way of 'purchasing' the film.

To put it a different way - how many people torrent multi-million-dollar Hollywood movies without paying for them? Millions of people? What percentage of those think that it's worthy of their monetary support and then go and pay for the film? 5%? 10%? Even 20%?

Even if it were 30% - let's stack the numbers up. I pay you $30 to look at my film and hopefully you put it up. 100 people watch it. Of those 30% might consider donating some money to it. So ~33 people decide to donate $5. I make ~$165. Minus the $30 submission fee, so I've made $135.

Or I could go and sell 100 DVDs for $12 ea. I've made $1200. And if the person hates it, they've already paid for it - they're not making their decision about whether or not they want to pay for the film based on their own morality and how good the film is.

If the majority of people were kind-hearted enough to donate to a movie after they'd already torrented it and watched it for free, do you think the studios would be going after those people so aggressively?

And that's for movies that are at least half-decent..



When you say billions I imagine you're talking about the plural of billion, so let's say ~3billion people. I'd love to see the numbers that show that nearly half the world's population are looking for low-budget indie films, and willing to donate $5-$20 for it.


At the very basic level, you're faced with a major dilemma - people are not going to venture to your website to watch things without content present.
But, people aren't going to pay to have their film submitted without a viewer base.

So how are you going to get around this? All the marketing in the world doesn't make up for a lack of content on a website dedicated to content hosting. But what incentive does one have to pay to submit a film to a website that lacks viewers? How can you possibly vet films for 'quality assurance' - you're hardly in a position where you can pick and choose what goes on your website when you have no other content...

And surely simply wading through the PayPal donations to ensure they end up with the correct content creator is going to be a full time job given the amount of traffic you expect (billions?).


Your first point in maths is assuming 100 people watch it. Many films I have seen being downloaded have at any given time between 1000-10,000 people involved ie either seeding or leeching on any given torrent site. I mention other sites because we do know that our torrents will end up on those also.
Its true that those are Hollywood films but what I said was..."billions of people looking for enjoyable movies in torrent form" That is true. They do predominantly go for Hollywood films, and its because of quality, I think we both agree there, so if we only allow a certain level of quality within our films, why should they not watch ours?

Also I want to just touch on something here. You ask how many of those torrent watchers go and then donate to Hollywood for said films. Firstly I wasn't aware that Hollywood had a system clearly set up to accept donations...and I would also point out that while many people think of Hollywood as a selfish, over-charging, money hungry monster that can afford the losses, they do not have that same opinion of the average Indie film or music producer, so respectfully I would have to point out that you cannot carry their attitude for one and put it onto the other.

Your crowd funding point was fair enough but I want to just take a second to change the wording there.

Your premise is that people are donating to you because they enjoyed viewing your film and now wish to pay for it. I see it differently. I see it as me watching your film, enjoying it, and donating to you so that you can make another film that I hope I will also enjoy.



Second question was in regards to a lack of content.
If you had taken the time to look at our site, you would notice that submissions this month are FREE, ie you do not have to pay to submit material this month for consideration. HOWEVER, that offer is in the form of a competition where we pick only the very best of submitted content, and host it on our site for FREE.

This gives us a beginning amount of content while still allowing us to maintain that quality control. Not to mention any content that we ourselves can produce to put up on-line also.


I love the simplicity of the idea of wading through billions of donations to make sure they go to where they are meant to go to. I get a picture of old Scrooge McDuck with too many coins on his desk. But the reality is that there is software now that can easily handle such transactions without the need of somebody sitting there and if we are receiving billions in donations I would expect to be able to at least afford a reasonable version of said software and the professional to come and get that set up. I am sorry to add the humour of Old Scrooge to such a serious matter but I am sure that you can appreciate why I thought of this.


If in doubt though, don't submit your work to us. Its that simple.
 
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