Aiming for Sundance... Need to upgrade gear

Hola

I'm an amateur film-maker who's looking to get serious and start working his way towards making a festival level indie feature. I want to get into Sundance within the next 4 years.

I've been shooting with a Nikon D5100 for the past couple of years. It's not great, but I've been able to learn a lot. I'm looking to upgrade my gear this summer. Got about 6000 dollars. Has to include the camera, the basic lenses, the stabilization and support gear and the audio gear. I've been looking at everything from the Mark III to the Pocket Cinema Camera. I'm really intrigued by the GH4.

Got any suggestions?
 
Your job is to be a story teller.

Instead of focusing on gear (pardon the pun) put your time and funds into hiring talent. Retain a UPM, DoP/Cinematographer, 1st AD, PSM, etc. Preproduce the living daylights out of your project, then go over it with a fine toothed comb, then preproduce some more. Treat your cast and crew like gold. Get an experienced editor and supervising sound editor. That's what will get you into Sundance.
 
Hola

I'm an amateur film-maker who's looking to get serious and start working his way towards making a festival level indie feature. I want to get into Sundance within the next 4 years.

I've been shooting with a Nikon D5100 for the past couple of years. It's not great, but I've been able to learn a lot. I'm looking to upgrade my gear this summer. Got about 6000 dollars. Has to include the camera, the basic lenses, the stabilization and support gear and the audio gear. I've been looking at everything from the Mark III to the Pocket Cinema Camera. I'm really intrigued by the GH4.

Got any suggestions?

Gear isn't going to make your production any better, practice will. You have a camera already, keep at it.
 
You need to upgrade your story-telling, writing and Directing actors skills.

You don't need any specific camera to get into Sundance, just a great story (insert obligatory story about Like Crazy and similar)

Honestly, I'd rather spend $6,000 renting gear and paying the right people to make my incredible script come to life.
 
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Ignore any negative comments.

I'm going to assume you're not an idiot and you're well aware that telling a good story is important.
And you also know that gear alone is not going to make a good film and Sundance in not the end all be all of filmmaking blah blah blah.

Here's my opinion. Gear IS important because at the very least you need to be on a level playing field with other filmmakers (production-wise) to have a shot at the top tier festivals. Many Sundance shorts have been shot with DSLRs but if your aim is to make feature films, you need something better. Some of the cameras you listed MIGHT be good enough (I'm a Blackmagic fan, myself) but honestly I don't think your budget is high enough, and I don't think you should buy gear at all.

The problem with buying gear right now is that the camera market changes every other month. By the time you go into production on your film there will be better and cheaper cameras.

Spend a couple thousand of those dollars to hire a really good cinematographer who already has a RED or an Alexa or another high end digital camera and all the nice lenses and gizmos. These guys make it their life to have the equipment and skills to shoot great looking films, which leaves you to focus on directing. Same thing with sound. Hire an experienced sound guy WITH GEAR. boom, more money saved.

Also, if Sundance is your goal, use that $6,000 to pay your rent while you polish your script and find investors to front the money for your production, because you're going to need a bigger budget. If your plan is to make no-budget features guerrilla style, that's wonderful and more power to you, but Sundance will be more like hitting the jackpot, and less like a realistic attainable goal.
 
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I disagree that gear gets you onto a level playing field. The experience of your team is what gets you on that level playing field.

As an example, DSLRs are used on high budget Hollywood films as D-cams, crash cams etc. In many cases, 5D's and similar are used as B-cams on movies that many here would consider high budget (not t mention the plethora of TV and commercials I've personally seen them used on). Are you telling me that these Television and Film professionals are not on a level playing field..?

If I'm brought onto a project as Cinematographer, I will push for better gear rental for a number of reasons. But, if it comes down to it, I'd rather spend the money on lighting and lens rental. As I've said many times - I'd rather a 5DmkIII with CP.2s and a 3-ton lighting/grip truck than a RED Scarlet with Canon lenses and no lighting.

Realistically, great Production Design and a competent DP as part of a highly competent team/crew will set your film apart, not the camera body it was shot on.
Oh, and sound ;)
 
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honestly I don't think your budget is high enough, and I don't think you should buy gear at all.

The problem with buying gear right now is that the camera market changes every other month. By the time you go into production on your film there will be better and cheaper cameras.
Excellent point (several others in that post too).

That said, the film industry being as bustling as it is in India, surely there have got to be several good rental houses around you (the OP). Rather than buying gear, consider renting. It's almost always more cost effective.
 
As an example, DSLRs are used on high budget Hollywood films as D-cams, crash cams etc. In many cases, 5D's and similar are used as B-cams on movies that many here would consider high budget (not t mention the plethora of TV and commercials I've personally seen them used on). Are you telling me that these Television and Film professionals are not on a level playing field..?

Well the clips in those high budget films that were shot with 5Ds don't look as good as the rest of the movie. They are only shown for a fraction of a second so the audience doesn't notice.

If all that mattered was that your team be experienced, why are these big budget films using cameras/equipment that can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars? They could save all that money, hire bigger actors, beef up their advertising budget, etc. But they don't. Why? Because they want their film to look better. Cinema is an art, and Sundance is a festival that favors artistic films.
 
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Well I have news for you, the clips in those high budget films that were shot with 5Ds don't look as good as the rest of the movie. They are only shown for a fraction of a second so the audience doesn't notice.

If all that mattered was that your team be experienced, why are these big budget films using cameras/equipment that can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars? They could save all that money, hire bigger actors, beef up their advertising budget, etc. But they don't. Why? Because they want their film to look better. Cinema is an art, and Sundance is a festival that favors artistic films.

In some cases, you're right - most of the time I can pick the DSLR shots. But I would almost guarantee that there are plenty of times when SLR shots have been used and you haven't even noticed. It's happened to me!

I didn't say that was the only thing that mattered. But the reality is that an experienced crew with cheaper gear will make a better looking film than an inexperienced crew with better gear.

There are still productions shooting on RED Ones. RED Ones have to be the most frustrating and annoying camera in existence simply to try and wok with. It doesn't have the latitude that most newer cameras have, and you cannot push it much higher than 400ISO without running into noise issues.

But if you don't have the budget for an Alexa or Epic, you work with what you do have the budget for.

The issue is a lot of people these days get bogged down in the technology, rather than the artistry. If you want to be a DP, you need to learn how to light - NOT buy an expensive camera. If you want to make a film, hire a DP and have the discussion about what to shoot on.

I've seen Cinematographers who bought REDs lose jobs to those who don't even own a camera simply because the non-owner is just a better Cinematographer.

A better camera body is not going to make your story better. All things considered, the camera body is a small part of the entire film package.

The reasons Hollywood shoots on certain cameras are many and varied, which is why there are many different cameras in use, even on the one film.
Also, the big budget films you're talking about already have the expensive name actors locked in and already have huge advertising budgets. If you're shooting an $80mil film, you're not scrimping pennies in the same way that many low budgeters, including many here, are.

Do you think when Deakins or M David Mullen got their first Super 8 camera, they decided it wasn't worth shooting anything on because it doesn't look as good as 35mm?

How many things has Deakins and scores of other major Cinematographers shot on 16 and S16mm? 16mm stock has less latitude and is much grainier than it's 35mm counterparts. And yet, thousands of projects have used it as a capture format (and even a distribution format).

I wonder where some Cinematographers, and many filmmakers in general, would be if they didn't shoot anything at all because they couldn't afford 35mm and S16 was just 'not good enough'.



Also Like Crazy is used as an example all the time - but that was a film that sparked a bidding war at Sundance and was shot on a 7D - not even a 5D, and it wasn't even running Magic Lantern!
So much for the necessity to shoot on something better than a DSLR...
If they'd increased their budget to account for a RED or Alexa and the post workflow associated with that, do you really think simply having an extra couple stops of dynamic range would have increased the final fee for the deal? Enough to account for the raise in budget? It still received a worldwide release despite being shot on an SLR - I personally don't think shooting on a RED or Alexa would have made any difference to the distribution it received, or the final fee.

Last I heard distributors aren't making deals based on how much dynamic range the shots have...


One last point:

A friend of mine showed me a short film that was shot by a 'friend' of theirs. They showed me as a stark demonstration of the fact that it's about the person not the camera. The short was an action flick, shot entirely at night inside and outside a house. The footage has some of the worst noise I've ever seen. The film looks overlit, is unengaging, the acting is average and overall is a film I'd turn off within 30 seconds.

It looked like they shot on a mid-00's handycam (and not intentionally - they weren't intentionally going for a blair-witch style thing).

What did they shoot on? A RED Epic in 5k with a $10k zoom lens.
 
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All fair points, Jax, but I don't think we're even arguing all that much since we're agreeing on pretty much everything.

I just wanted to stress to the OP that better gear CAN make a difference (in the right hands) and I wanted to give him/her some advice that wasn't the standard "work on your craft, don't buy new gear."

The fact is some people just like to own nicer gear, and some people reading this thread might have the extra cash to buy it.
 
I'm an amateur film-maker who's looking to get serious and start working his way towards making a festival level indie feature.

Keep making films. It's good to have high ambitions and dream, but the best thing you can do is go out, then write, shoot, and edit. Keep on creating work and improving. If you constantly are making films and improving, you're going to become more talented at your craft, refine your skills, and become more involved in the industry you are currently trying to break into right now. In addition to that, I recommend you go out and start meeting other filmmakers, cinematographers, sound people, colorists, editors, VFX artists, etc. Just keep on working away at your craft. Once you have talent and skill, begin investing in gear if it is necessary. I also recommend you keep studying, looking at threads, watching tutorials, reading books, then applying those techniques to your work. And sometimes, just test and experiment. I was reading how directors such as JJ Abrams and Richard Linklater would pull out a camera and try to mimic techniques from their favorite films to understand how certain shots and techniques evoke certain moods. In recent years, Film Riot and other filmmaking shows on the internet have started challenges for people to basically do the same - recreation of shots and scenes from the contestant's movies of choice. There are plenty of challenges and methods that can help you (in addition into just going out there and shooting) that can help you, including making incredibly short short films, no sound short films, Dogme95 films, films that have no dialogue, films that show inanimate objects showing emotion, etc. Once you begin to create quality work, you could always start working on music videos and advertisements if you wish. Another thing that could be potentially helpful to you early on is to become a PA on sets, or just hang around sets to see the good and bad of directors. Bring a notepad and take notes if you do so, those notes could be potentially helpful later. Really living and breathing the craft can significantly help you, and will often lead to improving and reaching the ambitions that you seem to want to meet.

I want to get into Sundance within the next 4 years.

Ok, you have a goal. Now set up a plan for that goal. Above I listen ways that people improve and reach goals such as goals, and so have others. Come up with a basic idea of how exactly you are going to be creating high quality work that is worthy of Sundance, and once you have done so, start working on that plan.

I've been shooting with a Nikon D5100 for the past couple of years. It's not great, but I've been able to learn a lot.

That's wonderful that you've been learning a lot. If you wish to go onto to making more high quality work, you may want to consider renting. It's cheaper and more convenient. See, the problem with buying is that (especially in the camera industry) technology evolves quickly. In a couple of months, a camera that is considered great now will become old news and people will fully lose interest in the camera and move onto the next big thing. The next big thing is an illusion, simply a visual trick done through advertising. Whatever camera that is the thing that you have to buy will eventually be forgotten about or will not receive the amount of attention that other similarly-made cameras get. I recommend you stick with the camera you have... mainly because of the reason I just gave you. Also due to the fact that there is fantastic footage of the camera that you are using out there, and the beautiful imagery that you commonly see from those cameras are not just the camera body themselves, but nice lenses, locations, lighting, and any other visual elements that contribute to a film looking filmic or 'good'. The camera you have is fine for now, and seeing the place you are in right now, I'd say to just stick with it.

I'm looking to upgrade my gear this summer.

This is a hard to answer question because I don't know what kind of film you are making, fictional or doc. I don't know the genre, and I don't know how you will be shooting the film(s). I only say that because gear is made to appeal to certain people, and while something could be useful to one person, it could be almost useless to another person. An Arri-Alexa probably won't suit a surfer, and a couple year old Go-Pro won't suit the acclaimed director that'll be releasing a wide-release science fiction VFX-laden thriller for a main camera. I'll try anyway. Okay, I'd say to count the camera out. Now you have a couple thousands to spend on something else. I'd recommend starting with a good tripod, preferably a Manfrotto, or my personal fav., the Ravelli 75mm bowl head AVTP. Then you can purchase a Glidecam if necessary. Then buy some lighting gear. I recommend you buy some LED panels from FloLight, although a 3-point Lowel lighting kit wouldn't be a bad option either. For audio, there have been plenty of threads. (http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=49443). What I recommend you do yourself is identify the kind of film you are making and how you are making, and research the gear that gets the most favorable responses. Often times respected videographers, gear-heads, and filmmakers will have you covered when it comes to equipment reviews. Now, if you're going to be making a feature or slew of high quality short films, I recommend you instead rent and hire people to operate gear. It's cheaper, faster, and results in a being a product of higher quality.

I'm really intrigued by the GH4.

I recommend you NOT invest in the GH4. I say that because people have bought cameras thinking they have the next new thing, then a couple months later, a rival camera company comes out with a "better" product, which you want to buy, but are reluctant. That is shortly followed up by the camera company that created the camera that you bought releasing an even better idea. Often these better cameras are successful and appeal to you, because, well, they have glorious gimmicks that they rely on to survive. Currently, filmmakers are downright obsessed with 4K, something that isn't necessary and shouldn't be a part of the criteria that a filmmaker compiles when thinking about buying a camera over more important features that most filmmakers need. People are going to avoid the other unimpressive specs and glare in amazement at the thought of shooting in 4K. It's incredibly effective, and is why the camera and the many more to come will be successful.

Here's my opinion. Gear IS important because at the very least you need to be on a level playing field with other filmmakers (production-wise) to have a shot at the top tier festivals.

I respectfully disagree, although can see where you're coming from. The OP is looking to be on that playing field in the next 4 years and is currently just an amateur. As a beginning filmmaker, I think that it's important to work with crap gear. I'm not saying to submit to festivals with crap gear, but to start up with gear of lesser quality. Only because when starting out beginners and amateurs, filmmakers shouldn't be enamored and fixated upon how great gear is, and the many advantages of shooting in 4K, and the things that camera companies are doing right now that are really helping filmmakers. I think the best thing that can possibly be done is to just work with the most basic of cameras, with the essential functions that you need to get a half decent image. Then to your greatest ability, perfect your skills with that camera so that when you go onto working with nicer cameras, you have the ability to get the best image you possibly can with those more high quality devices.

----

OP, I recommend you stick with the camera you have and instead polish your skills.
 
Ignore the gearfreaks here and film a story that will make people you don't know tell their friends you've GOT to see this. Once this happens, your path to Sundance will become clear.

Good luck.
 
I broadly agree with most of the responses here.

$6,000 is nowhere near enough to buy the equipment you will need to get a feature into Sundance. You would struggle with an equipment budget of $600,000, let alone $6,000 and of course you would need considerably more than a couple of years or so to learn how to use it all competently anyway. It's simply impractical to own all the equipment needed to make a feature of the commercial (or very near commercial) standards required to get into Sundance.

My advice therefore is essentially two fold: 1. Develop your skills in collaborating with others (DPs, sound editors, picture editors, actors, etc.). This includes obtaining/writing scripts which allow those collaborators to create both technically and aesthetically good quality content, as well as the actual communication skills to get the best out of them and 2. To make a film (or short film) which demonstrates such good storytelling skills that you can attract the funding required to hire/collaborate with those who have the skill, experience and equipment/facilites necessary to make a feature of commercial (or near commercial) standards. Remember, most features screened at Sundance have budgets in excess (and often considerably in excess) of $1m. While you might get in with a smaller budget film, the task becomes increasingly difficult the smaller your budget.

I would also add to Zensteve's and others' concerns, why Sundance? While there are categories for foreign films, Sundance seems mainly aimed at US filmakers; films actually funded in the US, not just English language films. Cannes or some of the other top tier festivals might be a better choice of top tier festival, unless you are absolutely set on Sundance?

G
 
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Hola

I'm an amateur film-maker who's looking to get serious and start working his way towards making a festival level indie feature. I want to get into Sundance within the next 4 years.

I've been shooting with a Nikon D5100 for the past couple of years. It's not great, but I've been able to learn a lot. I'm looking to upgrade my gear this summer. Got about 6000 dollars. Has to include the camera, the basic lenses, the stabilization and support gear and the audio gear. I've been looking at everything from the Mark III to the Pocket Cinema Camera. I'm really intrigued by the GH4.

Got any suggestions?

Yes, I have suggestions:

1. Buy a 60d, a couple of cinema lenses and as you are in India, a couple of variable NDs.
2. Manfrotto tripod & head
3. Sound gear: DR100 MkII minimum. Nice mic probably an NTG1 minimum, boom, shockmount, XLRs, Sennheiser cans, zeppelin, softie etc...
4. Lights for indoor shooting. Cheap redcaps, three of them. Dimmable, barn doors etc...
5. Editing: FCPX (because it's cheap) and Motion 5 for the compositing and limited VFX. It's more than enough.

That's your $6k USD spent, you have the kit.

I know that a fan-f@cking-tastic short can be made from this type of kit. I saw something which blew my mind that was shot by an Oscar-nominated DoP and he shot it with a stock lens (not lenses - one, single, stock Canon lens) on a 5D Mk II.

Then get into the best local film fests you can get into. With all this kit, if you can't get into those, then you're not good enough.

That's where I am, incidentally: I have just been accepted into a fest which has a very strong name my local country for low-budget shorts. It means I am seriously thinking about upgrading my kit because if I am good enough to be considered to have shot one of the best low-budget shorts in the UK, I am good enough to start moving upwards.
 
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I just wanted to stress to the OP that better gear CAN make a difference (in the right hands)
I agree. But I do not believe that better gear in the wrong hands
levels the playing field.

Festival programers (and I'm restricting my comments to a "festival level
indie feature) are less interested in the camera used than in a movie that
will excite them. I know that's what you're saying - that is what we are
all saying. I only take issue with your comment that gear is important because
a filmmaker needs to be on a level playing field with other filmmakers
(production-wise) to have a shot at the top tier festivals. I do not believe
that to be true.

Finding talented skilled people is much more difficult than finding the "right"
camera. Which is why we get so many camera/gear questions. In my opinion
your parenthetical is the most important part of your point. The right people
will level the playing field in a much more significant way than gear.
 
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