About $4000 Budget

I

ideaQuest

We are finally looking to upgrade some of our equipment and want to make sure we get something we are happy with. We have filmed things in the past and have spent no more than $500 on the camera. It was suitable for what we were doing at the time, but now we want to get more serious. Our current project will have little to no speaking, but our main theme is comedy. We have about $3000-$4000 to spend just on the camera alone.

We are looking for:

-24p
-HD
-XLR input

We have looked at the DVX100b, the XL-2, GY-HM100U. Any comments regarding these or other suggestions will be very helpful. Thank you.
 
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Canon T2i
Zoom H4n

That's just a thousand bucks. You can use the remaining 2-3 G's on anything from glass to camera mount, lights, etc.

If you wanna splurge, go for the 5D. Skip the 7D.
 
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How about hiring a DP that has a camera. Or renting a camera like the Red One and gear. That would be the quickest way to up your quality.

If buying then I think you should consider the 5D and 7D. But know you will need other gear like Lenses, tripod, jib, dolly, a rail system, external monitor, audio recorder and boom mic, steady cam attachment, etc... Then you may also want to get light gear too. The T2i is the cheaper version of the 7D. It is not quite as good as the 7D but is still nice.

There are a lot of great cameras out there it is a matter of what you want in your camera and price willing to pay. I don't know about every camera but I do know there is tons of options and lots of price points. I look at footage I see and try to judge that way and also read reviews.

Maybe you should just rent a camera and give it a try before buying one. I know you can rent the 7D and 5D online. Living in California it may be even easier to rent a camera and gear depending on where you live.
 
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rockerrockstar, for the extra money, I don't think the 7D is worth it. The things that make it "better" are mostly conveniences; there are very few differences that will result in better footage. At the end of the day, I feel like the T2i and 7D are getting pretty much the same results. The 5D, however, that's a completely different camera.

I do like your idea of renting. I guess it depends on the OP's intended plans, but it should definitely be considered.

ideaQuest, on a small-budget project, DSLR is pretty sweet. You should research it's limitations (which are many). But in this price-range, I personally don't think there's much of a debate worth having. DSLR is sweet.
 
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rockerrockstar said:
How about hiring a DP that has a camera. Or renting a camera like the Red One and gear. That would be the quickest way to up your quality.
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We dont want to rent because we actually want to have this equipment for future projects that we have planned. We are upgrading now because we have a lot of ideas that we are trying to get started.

We are aware of the extras that we will need and have a budget for the rest of that as well. The $4000 here is only for the camera, we have another whole budget for lights, sounds, jibs, etc.

I have been looking at many cameras and trying to decide which one is the best for us, but I wanted some opinions from people who may have used them or others that could lend some insight. I had not really looked at DSLRs so its interesting that most people suggest those, its another field that I need to explore now.
 
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Is this primarily an action movie? If yes, don't get a DSLR.

Are you going to be shooting mostly outside, in high-heat temperatures? If yes, don't get a DSLR.

Otherwise, I think the decision has been made for you. They're so economical. You finally get to play with depth of field (but don't over-do it). You have the option of a near-endless supply of lenses (and that's where you should be spending the money you save on the camera). Total no-brainer, in this price-range.
 
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Thanks for the info Cracker Funk, it has really helped. I am going to do some more research on this subject.

But, and I know you said DSLR is the way to go, what does anyone think about the Canon XH-A1?

I really do like the 5D though, so I appreciate it. I will start looking at these and lenses.
 
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ideaQuest said:
But, and I know you said DSLR is the way to go, what does anyone think about the Canon XH-A1?
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Well, I've never used that camera, so I can't really comment on it, beyond what I just googled. Looks like it records interlaced. Me no likey.

Joseph like 24p. Joseph like 30p. Joseph like 60p (slo-mo, baby!). Joseph no like interlaced.
 
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I suggesting renting a camera so you could try it out and then decide if it was worth buying for your projects. Other than that you could look at test footage on youtube for various cameras.
 
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From the OP: The XL2 and DVX cameras shoot SD, not HD so are disqualified... The other camera I'm not familiar with. The Canon cameras shoot "Frame" mode which isn't technically progressive, but isn't interlaced either (it's progressive that uses an odd interpolation method to build the even fields from the same timeslice rather than the next 48th of a second as interlaced would have)... I've shot with A1, it's a great camera... I used it for our heinz commercial competition entry, great footage.

DLSRs force you to record separate audio to get decent results. They are still cameras with video capabilities at the end of the day. They take great pictures, but are a bit cumbersome (interface wise) to use on set... although the increased image happy may outweigh that for you as it has for many folks - I'm even starting to lean that way a bit.

Take a look at the Olympus Pen (?) as well. It's new, affordable and shoots somewhere between a 16mm and 35mm frame size getting good options for DoF... best fo both worlds, the deep focus that film folks have struggled with for so long and the Narrow DoF that digital folks have been pining for.

I'll recommend the same thing I always do here, don't buy it until you've taken one for a test drive, the images it produces will represent you in the future and any on set stress it causes you will impact whether folks want to return to your sets... make sure it fits you interface wise.
 
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knightly said:
DLSRs force you to record separate audio to get decent results. They are still cameras with video capabilities at the end of the day. They take great pictures, but are a bit cumbersome (interface wise) to use on set... although the increased image happy may outweigh that for you as it has for many folks - I'm even starting to lean that way a bit.
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Sorry, knightly, I agree with so much of what you say on these boards. Not this time around. DSLR doesn't force you to record seperate audio (though, it's definitely a damn good idea). Plugging an XLR into any HDV camera will get you slightly better audio results than plugging an unbalanced mic into a DSLR. But at the end of the day, I really think you need a quality preamp, and as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong, anybody), you're not going to get that on any HDV camera. So, either way, if you want quality audio, you need an external recorder.

Cumbersome? No way. I've been using the T2i extensively for the last month. I've found it no less easy to work with than Canon GL1 and Sony VX2100 cameras that I first learned how to make movies with.

On a sidenote, knightly, I don't recommend the T2i, or any other DSLR for documentary-making, just in case that's what you were considering it for. As a second camera, it'd be pretty sweet. Narrowing the depth of field can be a really useful tool for talking-heads-style interview footage. But for having a camera that needs to be out and about, on the go, this ain't the one. Overheating is an issue, and auto-focus is a non-feature. For narrative filmmaking, auto-focus is stupid; but on a documentary-shoot, it's convenience can be a life-saver.
 
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The 5D with some good glass is going to get you a beautiful image for the price. If you can't spring for a good zoom lens then you can always rent lenses for a reasonable price (especially if you know what you want and rent primes instead of a zoom). In my experience the 5D actually records pretty decent audio in-camera (so long as you have the image stabilizer turned off). I don't recommend recording audio in-camera, but if you're savvy in manipulating audio in post it'll give you something that with some work can sound okay.
 
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CF: at this point, I'm more concerned with clean audio than its bitrate. An unbalanced mic uses its cord as a giant RF antenna and introduces noise into the line that you can't remove in post. Using a preamp like a beachtek minimizes as it adapts from XLR to miniplug in, but still gives a short bit of that antenna that has the potential to screw up the audio... although it is an option and I use a preamp like that currently. I'd prefer the XLR straight to the camera... and that is one of the things holding me back from moving that route.
 
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You guys are mad. :) It's amazing how OCD some of you can be about the quality of audio using XLR cables directly into a camera...and then you have little sound design, bad lighting, friend actors...

Come on! Give me a break. We *always* XLR directly into our camera, and the sound is very usable. Very clean. We don't get a buzz or interference...and if we do, it's so slight it can easily be fixed in post.

I'm sorry, but I think some of you need to place your concerns elsewhere...XLR to camera is the least of your worries, and should be very low on your 'things to improve' list.

For $4-5K...I would get a 7D (or T2i) with a few lenses, a nice tripod, and a shoulder mount with monitor and follow focus.

:)

Here is a link to some of the best HD cams under $5K:

http://www.obsessable.com/feature/five-of-the-best-hd-cameras-for-independent-filmmakers/
 
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The XLR into camera is what I do. I do alot of time constrained edits, so having to synch sound in post would be more work thrown on top of stuff that will generally be played over TV speakers or out of a computer. My problem is using a phonoplug based sound input... that sounds like this:

http://yafiunderground.com/Video/Reel-5.100.mov

This was recorded with an ATR55 directly into the camera, the mic was immediately out of frame in every shot - so as close as we could get to the actor. The CFL lights we were using on set introduced a full spectrum buzz in to the line that I couldn't take out, not just the 60hz buzz one would expect. That is why I'm OCD about my audio and how it gets into the camera, but separate sound is the "correct" way - although I've used a beachtek and it did a nice job, but there's still a bit of the unbalanced cable between the preamp and the camera that can introduce buzz.
 
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