That's exactly directorik's point. The mic is the same way. You need an experienced operator.
A Sound Guy Sounds Off
- Thread starter Alcove Audio
- Start date
i can not say enough here about having a great Boom Operator. I dont care what equipment you have and how great a mixer you are. if the mic is not there where it needs to be. sound suffers. and not to mention many scenes with multiple actors coming and going in a scene, the boom op becomes a mixer in many ways as he deals with overlaps and someone with bad S's. coming up and down to make the sound even and then during all this, has to deal with lights and framelines and many times multiple cameras. Sound Starts Here !!!
then if it cant be done with the boom..wires come into play and stashes..what ever it takes to get the scene.
as both a mixer and a boom op...i have over 100.000.00 invested in equipment...and always upgrading. and it takes all this equipment to do any size film well.
so i agree...the small indie film maker does not take this into account..."hey my DP is coming with his or her own camera package (costing maybe 25000.00 and we have to pay him" but never think that the sound person is coming in with 4 times the value of that and will only think to pay near nothing for them...and as for the poor boom op..." cant we just get a PA to hold the boom?" haha...i have to laugh.
so once this crap gets to the sound designer...no matter what they have to offer..there is not much they can do to save this film. except start over and spend tons of money to rebuild the film.
if the money was spent well first up...you save more...and this the Indie Film just does not get.
and in the case of Alcove...you can take good sound and trash it with someone who does not know how to build good scenes...so post IS just as important. so a good post budget is just as important to continue the good work of the location sound crew. as for bringing post on early..that is usually only on TV shows...and there is not much post can to early except when there is a lot of playback involved and things of that nature should be worked out ahead of time. other than maybe syncing dailies, which the lab can do, there is not much for them to do while filming.
if i am watching a show or film and the sound sucks ( dialogue off mic and i can hear heavy background or BG footsteps all over the dialogue or just thin sound and cant understand what they are saying without turning up the sound) change channel or pop the DVD out...its like watching a film Out of Focus
so yes...on the low end of film making...sound takes a back seat and is the death of many small films in the end...when will they learn???
and it does carry over to big films as well...only we get paid more...but still many times all i ever here is " cant you just wire them!" haha
so the small film maker should look at sound (price wise) the same as they do the Camera Crew and expect to pay the mixer almost as much and then pay for his/her sound package.. and just so everyone is clear...the Boom Operator is a KEY RATE and makes the same rate as a Gaffer or Key Grip..check union scale on this...and there is a good reason for this as i mentioned above.
then if it cant be done with the boom..wires come into play and stashes..what ever it takes to get the scene.
as both a mixer and a boom op...i have over 100.000.00 invested in equipment...and always upgrading. and it takes all this equipment to do any size film well.
so i agree...the small indie film maker does not take this into account..."hey my DP is coming with his or her own camera package (costing maybe 25000.00 and we have to pay him" but never think that the sound person is coming in with 4 times the value of that and will only think to pay near nothing for them...and as for the poor boom op..." cant we just get a PA to hold the boom?" haha...i have to laugh.
so once this crap gets to the sound designer...no matter what they have to offer..there is not much they can do to save this film. except start over and spend tons of money to rebuild the film.
if the money was spent well first up...you save more...and this the Indie Film just does not get.
and in the case of Alcove...you can take good sound and trash it with someone who does not know how to build good scenes...so post IS just as important. so a good post budget is just as important to continue the good work of the location sound crew. as for bringing post on early..that is usually only on TV shows...and there is not much post can to early except when there is a lot of playback involved and things of that nature should be worked out ahead of time. other than maybe syncing dailies, which the lab can do, there is not much for them to do while filming.
if i am watching a show or film and the sound sucks ( dialogue off mic and i can hear heavy background or BG footsteps all over the dialogue or just thin sound and cant understand what they are saying without turning up the sound) change channel or pop the DVD out...its like watching a film Out of Focus
so yes...on the low end of film making...sound takes a back seat and is the death of many small films in the end...when will they learn???
and it does carry over to big films as well...only we get paid more...but still many times all i ever here is " cant you just wire them!" haha
so the small film maker should look at sound (price wise) the same as they do the Camera Crew and expect to pay the mixer almost as much and then pay for his/her sound package.. and just so everyone is clear...the Boom Operator is a KEY RATE and makes the same rate as a Gaffer or Key Grip..check union scale on this...and there is a good reason for this as i mentioned above.
That was my point.
"Not everyone can create a great angle or shot, but anyone can hold a mic over a person's head."
Ah man, does this ever piss me off. It is absolutely not true, on both counts. First off, practically anybody, if they've had two art lessons can frame a decent shot. That's the easy part. The hard part of a DP's job is knowing where to put the camera and designing the lighting.
Secondly, mic placement is way more difficult than a lot of people realize. It takes pinpoint precision and a lot of knowledge and skill to avoid throwing a shadow. On top of that, knowing when to use wireless, plant mics and so on, requires years of experience. Then there are all the technical issues related to interfacing with the other equipment on the set.
Ah man, does this ever piss me off. It is absolutely not true, on both counts. First off, practically anybody, if they've had two art lessons can frame a decent shot. That's the easy part. The hard part of a DP's job is knowing where to put the camera and designing the lighting.
Secondly, mic placement is way more difficult than a lot of people realize. It takes pinpoint precision and a lot of knowledge and skill to avoid throwing a shadow. On top of that, knowing when to use wireless, plant mics and so on, requires years of experience. Then there are all the technical issues related to interfacing with the other equipment on the set.
I have said it before on this site that sound is my biggest pet peeve - when its crappy. I would be willing to sacrifce a high def picture (which still isn't as good as technocolor) for great sound.
I haven't begun filming yet (ordered a cheap camera to start)..so my trial film is just that - editing and sound.
I do not on the other hand have a budget of any sort ...outside of buying a proper mic and then fooling around from then on...but that is one of my bigger issues...
I haven't begun filming yet (ordered a cheap camera to start)..so my trial film is just that - editing and sound.
I do not on the other hand have a budget of any sort ...outside of buying a proper mic and then fooling around from then on...but that is one of my bigger issues...
"Not everyone can create a great angle or shot, but anyone can hold a mic over a person's head."
LOL. Whatever. I guess all of your shots have perfect audio then?
That way of thinking guarantees you horrible audio and shows your lack of experience. There are so many variables that effect audio quality, moreso than shooting something with a camera in most cases.
Even novice DPs can get great shots with some homework. You can look at other films and get a good idea on how the camera and lighting was set up, shoot in thirds, etc. You dont have that type of "easy" reference in audio.
I've been recording bands, effects, dialog, etc since I was a kid with a 4 track cassette recorder. The fidelity of things now is so good that we are used to hearing near perfect audio all the time. Audio is just as much art as it is technology.
There was a study in a magazine (Mix?) a few years ago that surveyed a group of people. One group watched a short film with the audio professionally done, the other group watched the same film with a rough sound mix and no ADR.
The group that watched the film with poor audio said the film sounded bad and LOOKED bad. The other group enjoyed the film entirely.
Any film is a culmination of all these things in the end. They all have to be done to the best of your ability/budget to work.
Alcove, have you thought of making up a demo reel like that? Show a clip with on-the-set audio, and then the same clip with your audio? May help make a statement....
It's not just audio guys that get the short end of the deal. I think it's artistic based jobs in general. Everyone thinks they should get graphics, sound, fx work, design work, etc for nothing or next to nothing because "it will be a great way to get exposure". I want to be exposed to a check.
People think that if something is "cool" or "fun" that they shouldn't have to pay for it. They don't realize the amount of time and investment it takes to do these things on an acceptable level.....
LOL. Whatever. I guess all of your shots have perfect audio then?
That way of thinking guarantees you horrible audio and shows your lack of experience. There are so many variables that effect audio quality, moreso than shooting something with a camera in most cases.
Even novice DPs can get great shots with some homework. You can look at other films and get a good idea on how the camera and lighting was set up, shoot in thirds, etc. You dont have that type of "easy" reference in audio.
I've been recording bands, effects, dialog, etc since I was a kid with a 4 track cassette recorder. The fidelity of things now is so good that we are used to hearing near perfect audio all the time. Audio is just as much art as it is technology.
There was a study in a magazine (Mix?) a few years ago that surveyed a group of people. One group watched a short film with the audio professionally done, the other group watched the same film with a rough sound mix and no ADR.
The group that watched the film with poor audio said the film sounded bad and LOOKED bad. The other group enjoyed the film entirely.
Any film is a culmination of all these things in the end. They all have to be done to the best of your ability/budget to work.
Alcove, have you thought of making up a demo reel like that? Show a clip with on-the-set audio, and then the same clip with your audio? May help make a statement....
It's not just audio guys that get the short end of the deal. I think it's artistic based jobs in general. Everyone thinks they should get graphics, sound, fx work, design work, etc for nothing or next to nothing because "it will be a great way to get exposure". I want to be exposed to a check.
People think that if something is "cool" or "fun" that they shouldn't have to pay for it. They don't realize the amount of time and investment it takes to do these things on an acceptable level.....
I did this exact same thing once - the cut w/ preliminary sound was very poorly received, but once the audio was done, the exact same cut made an entirely different (and much better) impression.
Hell, even when I show my girlfriend 'deleted scenes' on DVDs that don't have the audio processing / post work done on them, she immediately gets the impression that they feel 'amateurish' and to me those are the impressions that matter most. No - not my girlfriends'!
The impressions of actual audience members - the non-technicians that will be watching (and judging) your movie!
Sound can make or break a film, Music in my opinion is another really important factor in a film to tell the story. Sound can assault your senses more than visuals can so when a director films a meaty explosion, its not going to make much of an impact no matter how good it is if the sound for it doesn't pack a punch. Its the same in videogames where a good gunshot sound can make the experience much more thrilling and satisfying then a party popper gun shot if you know what i mean. @ the OP I am frustrated that people should take you for granted as i know how much work goes into making good sound or composing good music. Its mainly in student films that the sound is an after tought which is half the reason that some of them seem amateur. Maybe the actors and camerawork is good but if you can't hear what they're saying or if theres no score to help tell the characters emotion or drive the action along then its literally just a slideshow of images.
Well whoever is holding that boom just make sure the shadow or the mic isn't accidently in the film as it sometimes is...and the operator places it closest to the speaking actor as possible and I guess making sure the sound is even all around (if that makes sense).
I can sit and watch and watch a crappy movie now and again - esp a horror flick. I can live with a so so script, crappy acting (most actors are over rated anyway), so so film quality just so long as the camera isn't moving around all the time...as long as you have great sound. I was thinking of the movie jaws where the sound was a huge part of what made the film frightening (being the music is what represented the shark in the begining of the film).
I can sit and watch and watch a crappy movie now and again - esp a horror flick. I can live with a so so script, crappy acting (most actors are over rated anyway), so so film quality just so long as the camera isn't moving around all the time...as long as you have great sound. I was thinking of the movie jaws where the sound was a huge part of what made the film frightening (being the music is what represented the shark in the begining of the film).
I've never understood people that argue that a film is either visual or the sound mix. It's both!
Cut corners on one and your project will suffer for it. Most people will notice a visual problem
before they hear a problem with the sound, the brain can deal with a vislual problem better
then the audio. Thats why you can screew with the audience so effectively with sound.
They know that something is wrong, but maybe not why.
Terry
Cut corners on one and your project will suffer for it. Most people will notice a visual problem
before they hear a problem with the sound, the brain can deal with a vislual problem better
then the audio. Thats why you can screew with the audience so effectively with sound.
They know that something is wrong, but maybe not why.
Terry
This is not something that is realized from watching a Hollywood or studio film. Most of what the general audience is exposed to has decent production quality. When It comes to no budget filmmaking - aka I shot a feature in a day with a camcorder and nothing external, sound is a rampant problem.
If you're thinking in a sci-fi sense then yes a visual of planets may hold up. My movie starts out with a sun and planets, along with a narration. If the words are drowned out by music, then that mix can take away from the setup being explained. We watch movies for story, yes? If I am missing story points, this is crucial to what I think of the movie, regardless of what is good in it. Most indies revolve more around people talking than chases or set pieces. My opinion is that bad sound is more apt to ruin a good visual than the other way around. I own a shipload of indie movies, like the ones made on this forum. I have added many more since this pic:
No doubt that sound ruins more of these than any other factor. Bad sound, bad acting and bad technical qualities can compound each other, but it's ashame when bad sound ruins good acting and other elements, because of not being able to understand what is being said.
In the last 2 months, I've attended Xanadu Film Festival, as well as the Las Vegas Indiemeet. Both events show indie films, so I see a lot of them. I'm the projectionist and audio guy, so I literally ride the gain and EQ, during bad audio - I had a some movies with almost inaudible dialogue, but loud music and FX. It gives me a little perspective of what it takes to try making some of the audio intelligible for the viewers. Movies with good sound are an absolute joy to play...and experience.
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You bet! Thanks.
Marco and Anim8: When you quote me, please quote me correctly. This is what I said -
1. A camera is completely different then a mic. Not everyone can create a great angle or shot, but anyone can hold a mic over a person's head.
Of course, once they watch the footage and hear the problems they look for ways to correct it. That's where you come in.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Did you omit something? Like the point.
1. A camera is completely different then a mic. Not everyone can create a great angle or shot, but anyone can hold a mic over a person's head.
Of course, once they watch the footage and hear the problems they look for ways to correct it. That's where you come in.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Did you omit something? Like the point.
I understand. It reads like you are saying that the complexities of camera work exceed the complexities of audio work, and that anyone can do audio.
Wanting the sound guy to fix simple mistakes that could have been avoided by not using "someone" is part of the problem. People think its a one-mouse-click fix, and "why do I have to pay for this?"...
Sorry if it sounded like I was busting your balls over this.
Wanting the sound guy to fix simple mistakes that could have been avoided by not using "someone" is part of the problem. People think its a one-mouse-click fix, and "why do I have to pay for this?"...
Sorry if it sounded like I was busting your balls over this.