A Sobering Bit of Reality

By the way, I think the lottery model for breakout success is still viable. Don't believe me? Ask Lena Dunham. She's only the most recent example that it does in fact still happen.

It's the law of large numbers - no matter how unlikely an occurrence is, if your system is large enough it will happen. Sure, somebody always wins the lottery. That's why people keep buying tickets. And the more people who buy tickets, the more winners there will be - but also more losers. Don't believe me? Ask... well, I don't know who you should ask, because we really only ever hear the names of the winners. Huh. That's inconvenient.

The other problem is we're not talking about $1 lottery tickets, where you can play every week and if you never win it's not a particularly big loss, even in the long run. We're talking lottery tickets that cost $10k-100k+, enough that if you don't win you might not ever get to play again. I don't see any problem with buying the occasional lottery ticket, despite the odds. But if someone was planning to spend their entire life savings, or going into debt, or asking other people to invest money into buying one lottery ticket, then I'd say they might have a gambling problem!

I actually think high-stakes poker is a better metaphor in a lot of ways. You don't sit down at the table and go all in on the first hand of your first game, hoping for the cards to fall your way. You play games with smaller stakes at first. Even when you move to the big money games you play a few hands, you make a few small wins, you fold a lot of bad hands. You get to know the other players at the table, you watch how they play, you take small losses as a way of feeling out the game. And then, when the time is right you make your move and put it all on the line. You might not even have the cards - but if you've learned the game and the other players well you might not even need them.
 
Of course it's well said... you said it!

I actually think high-stakes poker is a better metaphor in a lot of ways. You don't sit down at the table and go all in on the first hand of your first game, hoping for the cards to fall your way. You play games with smaller stakes at first. Even when you move to the big money games you play a few hands, you make a few small wins, you fold a lot of bad hands. You get to know the other players at the table, you watch how they play, you take small losses as a way of feeling out the game. And then, when the time is right you make your move and put it all on the line. You might not even have the cards - but if you've learned the game and the other players well you might not even need them.

I'll pm you my offshore account numbers and you can jut deposit a million or so as soon as it's convenient... :lol:
 
Where do you think they'll be in another 10 years?
That's the new model. Those are the new indie filmmakers that the next generation of filmmakers will be looking to emulate.
The all-in, breakout feature film, hit it big indie model is dead - now it's a long-haul, brand building, audience-cultivating, business-building model.

I'm not sure you can say the breakout feature model is dead, more difficult certainly, dying possibly, but not dead, yet! I don't know of any recent cases like El Mariachi or Paranormal Activity where a distributor has taken an amateur film, pumped in hundreds of thousands to make it a profitable theatrical product (and elevated an amateur filmmaker to professional filmmaker). So maybe that model is dead (or dying) but there are still cases of low budget films making decent profits and of features being funded and made on the back of exceptional shorts but again, the odds do seem to be getting longer.

I think the question I've quoted above is to a certain extent irrelevant, the question isn't "where will they be?" but where will the filmmakers who follow their example be? If Wu & Friends are successful will that success be due to a "new model" or will it just be a case of them doing the right thing at the right time (and therefore it's not a "new model")? In other words, having 2m subscribers/fans at this point in time can be monetized to; raise $170k to fund a feature (and provide them with a living). The point I was trying to make in my previous post is; what happens when the film market is 100 times more saturated than it is now and the value of films goes through the floor? Will 2m subscribers still provide you with film funding? How many of those 2m subscribers will be willing to pay anything to watch the film if the average price of watching even a very good indie film is zero or almost zero?

Maybe this is a new model, maybe it's just a new model for those who jumped on the band wagon early enough or maybe it's not a new model at all and you spend years building a large subscriber base which by that time can't be monetized to the point of supporting you financially. Many indie filmmakers see successful examples from the past (or even the present) as a proven solution and therefore as examples worth following, without appreciating they were a proven solution to the problems of their time, not a proven solution to the problems/difficulties of the future!

I think the indie film world is in a crossroads situation, I think everyone is looking at how they might benefit in an extremely competitive field from the drastic changes which cheaper and cheaper technology is bringing, without realising that unless they also start working together to address the issues, there may not be a future! Maybe we are in an age of these types of crossroads, not just indie film and some other arts but on a much bigger scale, with climate change?

G
 
Though I don't really appreciate APE's snarky tone...

I wasn't attempting to be snarky!!

What you wrote was, as far as I can see, entirely representative of a huge number of indie filmmakers and not just of many current indie filmmakers but of the even greater number of future indie filmmakers. And I don't mean that in any derogatory way! It was as this representative that I addressed my post to "Cracker" instead of addressing it to "you". Sorry if it seems I was being snarky.

G
 
I wasn't attempting to be snarky!!

What you wrote was, as far as I can see, entirely representative of a huge number of indie filmmakers and not just of many current indie filmmakers but of the even greater number of future indie filmmakers. And I don't mean that in any derogatory way! It was as this representative that I addressed my post to "Cracker" instead of addressing it to "you". Sorry if it seems I was being snarky.

G

My bad. I was probably being snarky myself. Either way, I agree with what you said.
 
I think the question I've quoted above is to a certain extent irrelevant, the question isn't "where will they be?" but where will the filmmakers who follow their example be? If Wu & Friends are successful will that success be due to a "new model" or will it just be a case of them doing the right thing at the right time (and therefore it's not a "new model")? In other words, having 2m subscribers/fans at this point in time can be monetized to; raise $170k to fund a feature (and provide them with a living). The point I was trying to make in my previous post is; what happens when the film market is 100 times more saturated than it is now and the value of films goes through the floor? Will 2m subscribers still provide you with film funding? How many of those 2m subscribers will be willing to pay anything to watch the film if the average price of watching even a very good indie film is zero or almost zero?

Is it realistic to assume the market will become 100x more saturated than it already is? Cost of equipment is already so low that further reduction is unlikely to spur more production - time, skills and people are the limiting factor now, and until we improve cloning technology that's not likely to change much. There's some finite limit to the number of people with the time, skills and drive to tackle the task of producing a feature film, no matter what the cost.

I also think you're missing the point of what Wong Fu is doing. Their profit model isn't based on selling a certain number of copies of a DVD or VOD views into a generic market of indie film watchers. In fact, up until now their revenues haven't been based on selling videos at all. They appear to make money from multiple sources - via advertising on Youtube, t-shirt and merchandise sales (probably their largest revenue source), college speaking tours, music video production, and they've also produced a series of concerts. They're not just filmmakers - they're a brand (multiple brands in fact).

But now that they are producing (and I assume eventually selling) a feature film, they're still not competing with everyone else. What difference does it make to them if there's 100x as many films in the market next year? They've cultivated an audience who wants Wong Fu films - and there's only one source for those. There will only be one source for those next year, and the year after that, and so on. To the fans that they've cultivated their work isn't just one more generic video in a sea of generic videos. They've essentially decommodified their product.

That's the key here. It's the Apple model - build something that people love and they will continue to pay a premium for it despite the availability of significantly cheaper (or even free) options in an otherwise commodified market. It's not just about making something that's 'better' than everyone else; it's about tapping into something that's resonant with a particular segment of the audience, building on that over time, and building multiple revenue streams around it.

Now I'm not saying that everyone who wants to be a filmmaker can do this successfully, any more than anyone who wants to be a filmmaker can get their film released theatrically. It's like any other business venture, where
some businesses will succeed and others fail - both on their own merits, and the whims of the market. Naturally there's also always a limit to the size of any market. But the Wong Fu example shows that it's possible to do it with a relatively tiny segment of the overall audience, which suggests there may be room for quite a few other people to make it work.
 
I also think you're missing the point of what Wong Fu is doing. Their profit model isn't based on selling a certain number of copies of a DVD or VOD views into a generic market of indie film watchers. In fact, up until now their revenues haven't been based on selling videos at all. They appear to make money from multiple sources - via advertising on Youtube, t-shirt and merchandise sales (probably their largest revenue source), college speaking tours, music video production, and they've also produced a series of concerts. They're not just filmmakers - they're a brand (multiple brands in fact).

This is nothing new:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQEVgbMqq7o

I think I read somewhere that George Lucas asked for all the merchandising rights to Star Wars in his contract. Supposedly the studio execs laughed and thought he was crazy but man ... talk about foresight.
 
Originally Posted by Sage Pictures
The relevant model today is to do it for fun

Yep yep. :yes: This is pretty much where I am and where I'm at. If some notoriety finds me or one of my projects catches on with a wider audience, I won't turn down that ticket to ride. In the meanwhile, I'm just tinkering as an enthusiastic hobbyist and trying to produce work that I, and anyone who is involved, can be proud of.
 
My model is to make an award-winning short film and then parlay that into a feature film
 
Is it realistic to assume the market will become 100x more saturated than it already is? Cost of equipment is already so low that further reduction is unlikely to spur more production - time, skills and people are the limiting factor now, and until we improve cloning technology that's not likely to change much. There's some finite limit to the number of people with the time, skills and drive to tackle the task of producing a feature film, no matter what the cost.

I'm sorry to bring this up again but what you have written here is almost word for word verbatim what I heard 15-20 years ago in the music business. In the early 90's I spent about $70k on the latest technology, HD digital recorder, mixer and processing equipment, all of professional standard. The technology had advanced to the point that I could afford to get into that side of the business, 5 years earlier the equivalent equipment cost 10 times as much and just as Cracker, I thanked the music gods. Throughout the 90's equipment prices fell further but we weren't terribly worried because making a successful professional recording/album had always required a highly skilled team: A composer, musicians, a team of highly qualified engineers (Recording engineers, Mix engineers, Mastering engineer), a Studio Owner, a Producer and the backing of an A&R Exec to pump in the tens/hundreds of thousands required to hire all these people. By about 10 years ago, technology and the price of it reached what seemed to us old timers to be truly unbelievable levels, what had once cost hundreds of thousands could effectively be brought for just a few hundred, musicians could largely be eliminated (by advances in Music Industry Digital Interface technology) and the software/hardware made it possible (though not desirable) to replace all the engineers. The team was gone and could in theory all be done by just one person (with a few hundred $ of gear)! By the mid/late 90's the market was hugely over saturated, competition was fierce and the chances of success were tiny (sound familiar?) but by 10 or so years ago the cost of the equipment meant that even the average kid in their bedroom could in effect be a music production team/Record Label and the market became over saturated at least 100x more than it already was, if not 1000x more! Music became essentially worthless and music creators rushed from the music industry to the film/TV world, the only area of music creation which still paid a good living wage. But of course, that massively over saturated an already highly competitive film/TV marketplace for music creators. And IT members know the result of this because many of you use composers/music creators and know their market value!

The realistic holy grail for mass producers (like Panasonic, etc.) is not a product with a reasonable profit margin aimed at the tens or hundreds of thousands but a product with a smaller profit margin aimed at the hundreds of millions. At the moment, decent film cameras are well into the 4 figures, which puts them in a specialist, niche market but I guarantee you that all the big manufacturers are not only dreaming of bringing the cost down to a few hundred to make their film cameras a mass market item but are actively pumping in huge amounts of R&D to achieve it. Professional standard broadcast/film cameras are already about 10 times cheaper than they once were but they've probably got somewhere around another 10 times to go! And, not only will they be far cheaper but their operation and the operation of the software to manipulate the images will also be easier (and cheaper and better). 15 years ago the editing solutions cost tens of thousands, 10 years ago it cost 10-20x less, today it costs a few hundred and tomorrow it will be even cheaper AND easier. That's why professional editors were so pissed off with FCPX, it wasn't an upgrade for FCP7, it wasn't even a product aimed at them, it was aimed at the next generation of bedroom directors/editors/filmmakers, who only existed in relatively small numbers at the time but Apple obviously wanted to get themselves a market position early, ready for when the masses arrive. This is what pissed off the editors, FCPX heralded the end of editing as a profession for all but a handful of them.

So, what makes me assume the market will be 100x more saturated, that lower cost equipment will spur more production and that skills and people will not be as relevant as they are now? A: The trends of the equipment manufacturers, the trends of the film marketplace and history! Let me put your question the other way around: Accepting that the market is already more saturated than it was and is getting more saturated everyday, that the equipment is constantly getting cheaper/better, that the manpower requirements and skills are reducing/costing less and that the number of filmmakers is growing, what makes you think this trend has stopped or is stopping rather than increasing?

I also think you're missing the point of what Wong Fu is doing. Their profit model isn't based on selling a certain number of copies of a DVD or VOD views into a generic market of indie film watchers. In fact, up until now their revenues haven't been based on selling videos at all.

No, I understand exactly what Wong Fu is doing, and that's what worries me!! What you're saying is that the next generation of professional filmmakers aren't actually full-time professional filmmakers anymore, filmmaking is only one of their Brand's products and maybe no more than a sideline.

But now that they are producing (and I assume eventually selling) a feature film, they're still not competing with everyone else. What difference does it make to them if there's 100x as many films in the market next year? That's the key here. It's the Apple model - build something that people love and they will continue to pay a premium for it despite the availability of significantly cheaper (or even free) options in an otherwise commodified market.

You're missing the point. Apple don't just sell an iPhone 5S at whatever price they want, they extremely carefully place the iPhone at a price the market will accept. Which is roughly the same price or slightly higher than other manufacturers' equivalent models and they can charge a small premium by adding value in terms of build quality, design, ease of use, security and brand prestige. With a 100x more films in the market, the price of films will fall and eventually the expected/acceptable market price will be zero or close to it. Neither Wong Fu nor anyone else will be able to ignore this acceptable market price but they might be able to charge a premium, the question is, how much of a premium? At what point does even that premium make it uneconomical for investors to fund a $170k film or for Wong Fu to make a film in preference to concentrating on other more profitable products? At that point, our next generation professional filmmakers won't actually ever make any films! Or if they do, the films are no more than a marketing tool or loss leaders for the "Brand's" other, profitable products. Either way, 100x more films in the marketplace could very possibly herald the virtual end of the professional filmmaker, even for those with a very substantial established following/subscriber base! Incidentally, this is precisely where the recording industry now is, there really are almost no professional recording artists or record labels anymore.

G
 
Back in the 80s, my father worked for a company (not a studio) which had a production line of low budget, very bad but profitable films. If I look at the business model, it was very, very simple. If they could not market the film, they did not shoot it.

And this applies to any industry today. The previous company I worked for had a simple marketing plan when they first started. They identified a 'need' among potential customers, had a big party in Vegas to pull them all in, booked an 'A' list singer, followed up with everyone there (more marketing) and the result was loads of sales when the product was finally launched.

Personally, I am creating a marketing campaign at the moment and this is much harder work than shooting the d@mn film. It is astonishingly difficult and I finally understand why marketing a $3m USD film costs $3m USD. From initial soundings, market analysis, shaping the story and trailer, reaching out to get a specific demographic involved etc..., it is all phenomenally tricky. Bizarrely, the fundamentals seem to be identical to the 80s and the only difference seems to be the tools have changed.

It's not an excess of films which is the issue, rather it is a failure to understand and execute strong marketing plans by indie film makers. Right now, I am looking for a marketing person who wants to get involved in movie marketing as this person is significantly more important than a grip, a lighting tech or, quite frankly, me.
 
APE, this is what you have done to me:

lie_down__try_not_to_cry__cry_a_lot_combo_by_badflippy-d5t596e.jpg
 
APE, this is what you have done to me:

Yes, sorry about that Dready. However, the next 3 pictures could be: Cry Yourself Out, Get Motivated, Do Something About It!

In the music industry the artists are now clubbing together and forming associations to try and do something about the situation but they have an almost impossible task; to reverse something which has already happened. The market has hit bottom, what once cost $100k or so to make and was worth $16 per unit, the market now expects to pay just a few cents per unit. The indie film world has not reached this point yet though, so there's still time to do something about it! It could be that the scenario I've described doesn't come to pass but all the evidence seems to indicate that it will, in which case the biggest danger IMHO is apathy and those with an attitude like dlevenchuk's. There are potential solutions but it means all those with any influence or a piece of the indie pie getting together and working it out, instead of continuing to fight over a shrinking pie until there's nothing left worth fighting for!

G
 
APE, this is what you have done to me

lol

For yall, here is a relevant anecdote I shared via PM recently:

"At my work now (film & graphics for a radio show), we recently asked for resumes to fill two positions: an IT/web position, and a videographer position. In response to the IT posting, we received one (1) person's resume, whom we promptly hired for a lack of other applicants. In response to the videographer position, we received a massive number of resumes. Struck with the curse of choice, we are combing over the details, wanting to hire only the best. The IT person will be paid approximately three times the salary of the videographer. The IT person's job is very simple. I know more about IT than them."
 
Back
Top