Trying to make shots of animals more interesting.

I was invited by a producer to go to the U.S. to direct a nature/travel documentary. However, because of the budget, we only have a 50mm lens and that's it. Not an ideal lens for shooting animals since you cannot zoom in, and you cannot get close to them without them moving away further.

I feel my shots are very limited cause of this, especially when wanting to make animals interesting and close up, rather than always being at a distance. Is there anything I could do, or any shots I could come up with, to compensate, to make up for the lack of close ups?

What can I do to make animals interesting in distant shots? We're shooting beavers, birds, whatever is in the Pacific Northwest, that I could get the camera on. Thanks.
 
Okay I miss understood what you were saying, sfoster. I thought you mean that I should use a monopod with a medium focal length lens, like a 50mm, which I already have. I thought you meant that cause a long lens has too much shake.

But what you are saying is, to use a long lens, just on a monopod instead of handheld. And yes a long lens has way too much shake hand held. I have a DIY monopod, I made out of a painters poll. We can use that, or a DIY steadicam.

Well I think I can talk him into renting a telephoto lens. He is also giving me gopros to use, to get difficult shots. I think the gopros were a waist of his budget, because they have full auto ISO, that cannot be changed it seems, so the ISO will change in the shots, and you can see it. Not to mention the color grading mismatching difficulties. But I will try more to encourage him to rent a telephoto, cause even a 300mm is not the best for animals.
 
Even ADR is better if it saves money to get that lens perhaps.... Okay ADR is bad I know, but some movies have made it work.

The first requisite to even stand a chance of getting usable ADR is an actor who can at least get reasonably close to re-creating their performance and of course that's going to need a script. In a documentary you've generally got neither an actor, a performance or a script, which is why ADR is extremely rarely ever a viable option in documentary filmmaking. How, after all Alcove, I and others have told in the past, could you not know this?

Some interesting responses to this thread! 99% of the time, relatively experienced amateurs make docos and movies with passable/decent/good visuals and poor/crap sound. As a package the docs/films are therefore weak. In this case, it looks like the opposite might be the case; passable/decent/good sound but poor visuals. The result would be essentially the same though, a weak end product. What's interesting is in the case of poor sound/sound design, the answer I most commonly hear on IT is something along the lines of; "of course I'd like better sound but we didn't have the budget", "as amateurs/no budget indie filmmakers we've got to learn to do the best with what we've got", etc. In this case though, when it comes to the cinematography, the advice is entirely different and along the lines of; "you need the right equipment", "get more budget", "reallocate the existing budget", "the producer doesn't know what he's doing", "it's going to be a wasted effort/budget". ?!!!

G
 
What's interesting is in the case of poor sound/sound design, the answer I most commonly hear on IT is something along the lines of; "of course I'd like better sound but we didn't have the budget", "as amateurs/no budget indie filmmakers we've got to learn to do the best with what we've got", etc. In this case though, when it comes to the cinematography, the advice is entirely different and along the lines of; "you need the right equipment", "get more budget", "reallocate the existing budget", "the producer doesn't know what he's doing", "it's going to be a wasted effort/budget". ?!!!

G

Well he's not very well going to put a lav mic onto an owl.
He said it's a nature doc. But who knows ?
 
What's interesting is in the case of poor sound/sound design, the answer I most commonly hear on IT is something along the lines of; "of course I'd like better sound but we didn't have the budget", "as amateurs/no budget indie filmmakers we've got to learn to do the best with what we've got", etc. In this case though, when it comes to the cinematography, the advice is entirely different and along the lines of; "you need the right equipment", "get more budget", "reallocate the existing budget", "the producer doesn't know what he's doing", "it's going to be a wasted effort/budget". ?!!!

I disagree - using a 50mm lens to shoot wildlife footage from a distance is the visual equivalent of using an on-camera mic to record dialogue, which I've always seen met around here with the immediate suggestion to get an external recorder, boom and mic. The lens I suggested renting is the optical equivalent of an h4n & me66 - certainly not the best option, or what a professional would choose given an adequate budget, but inexpensive and far better than his current setup.
 
The first requisite to even stand a chance of getting usable ADR is an actor who can at least get reasonably close to re-creating their performance and of course that's going to need a script. In a documentary you've generally got neither an actor, a performance or a script, which is why ADR is extremely rarely ever a viable option in documentary filmmaking. How, after all Alcove, I and others have told in the past, could you not know this?

Some interesting responses to this thread! 99% of the time, relatively experienced amateurs make docos and movies with passable/decent/good visuals and poor/crap sound. As a package the docs/films are therefore weak. In this case, it looks like the opposite might be the case; passable/decent/good sound but poor visuals. The result would be essentially the same though, a weak end product. What's interesting is in the case of poor sound/sound design, the answer I most commonly hear on IT is something along the lines of; "of course I'd like better sound but we didn't have the budget", "as amateurs/no budget indie filmmakers we've got to learn to do the best with what we've got", etc. In this case though, when it comes to the cinematography, the advice is entirely different and along the lines of; "you need the right equipment", "get more budget", "reallocate the existing budget", "the producer doesn't know what he's doing", "it's going to be a wasted effort/budget". ?!!!

G

Okay thanks. Yes I know ADR is bad, especially for a documentary. I was lead to believe it was going to be mostly narration, and that the animals were going to be stars, so I thought maybe ADR was acceptable if there was not going to be hardly any on screen mouth movement in the dialogue.

I also suggested to the producer, that I currently have a shotgun mic, and why not just do it old school style, and hold the shotgun up to people's mouth when you interview them, but he thinks that will look too cheap. It might be the shots of the animals might be more important, as well as having good sound, rather than seeing a shotgun mic held up to people's mouths. But the producer is tight on money now and is not sure if he can even afford to rent a longer lens or telephoto. There is another crew member who completely agrees though, that we need something more and is also trying to urge him into how important it is.
 
Okay thanks. Yes I know ADR is bad, especially for a documentary. I was lead to believe it was going to be mostly narration, and that the animals were going to be stars, so I thought maybe ADR was acceptable if there was not going to be hardly any on screen mouth movement in the dialogue.

From wikipedia, because apparently *I* have to look this up for you

Automated dialogue replacement, or additional dialogue recording (ADR), is the process of re-recording dialogue by the original actor after the filming process to improve audio quality or reflect dialogue changes (also known as "looping" or a "looping session")

Recording with a narrator in post production is not re-recording dialogue. What you are talking about is NOT adr.

Will you remember this? I might as well shake a magic 8-ball.
 
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You're right, I used ADR in the wrong context. But I feel the shotgun mic will do fine for interviews as long as the producer doesn't mind it showing in the frame as you hold it up to the host's mouth. But he has a problem with that, and does not want any mic showing. I thought it would be okay, I think I saw Michael Moore use hand held mics when speaking to people in his documentaries.
 
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sfoster is right: you mix up ADR with (narrative) voice-over.
Besides that: ADR is a bad iea in this project. It's not always a bad thing.

Micheal Moore is the main character in his documentaries taking the audience along in his quest for answers.
Not everyone can pull that off, because you need to have 'personality' to be in the documentary instead of just making one.

Is there a script/concept ready?
 
I haven't seen a script yet, but they want to do it mostly unscripted they said, that that is part of the project's "charm". But they have a layout of topics to cover and schedule. There is a host though, and he will be on camera, speaking, and interviewing others.
 
I disagree - using a 50mm lens to shoot wildlife footage from a distance is the visual equivalent of using an on-camera mic to record dialogue, which I've always seen met around here with the immediate suggestion to get an external recorder, boom and mic.

Not the same analogy. The built-in mics/recorders in cameras represent the worst audio recording money can buy and the result is generally either very bad or unusable. There's no real "visual equivalent" to this except maybe filming in low light conditions with the worst SD camera money can buy, not something most here would rightly advise! A consumer/prosumer external recorder, boom and mic represents the minimum setup required for even standing a chance of capturing usable dialogue in many situations. A 50mm lens wouldn't get the close up detail that one would want (unless it could be ingeniously positioned) but it could get a usable image of some sort.

Of course, capturing sound is only half (or even less than half) of the equation, the processing/mixing is at least as important but again, many no/lo budget indie/amateur filmmakers attempt this task using the worst equipment it's possible to buy.

Yes I know ADR is bad, especially for a documentary.

No, it's not "bad", in most documentary situations it's impossible!

I was lead to believe it was going to be mostly narration, and that the animals were going to be stars.

In which case it's not ADR but dubbing or VO recording, as sfoster has stated. And of course the sound (inc. VO) is going to be almost exclusively created in post.

You originally stated this was a travel/nature doco, along with the thread title this implies the inclusion of some animals but now you're saying the animals are the "stars". If this is the case, then how many films/docos have you seen where the "stars" are only ever visible in the distance in wide shots?

I also suggested to the producer, that I currently have a shotgun mic, and why not just do it old school style, and hold the shotgun up to people's mouth when you interview them, but he thinks that will look too cheap.

It depends on the situation. It's usually acceptable to have a hand-held mic in shot during an ad hoc interview with a member of the public in a public place, not so much for a more formal interview. With a bit of planning, it is certainly possible to record a formal interview without lavs.

G
 
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Not the same analogy. The built-in mics/recorders in cameras represent the worst audio recording money can buy and the result is generally either very bad or unusable. There's no real "visual equivalent" to this except maybe filming in low light conditions with the worst SD camera money can buy, not something most here would rightly advise! A consumer/prosumer external recorder, boom and mic represents the minimum setup required for even standing a chance of capturing usable dialogue in many situations. A 50mm lens wouldn't get the close up detail that one would want (unless it could be ingeniously positioned) but it could get a usable image of some sort.

...................

Well you could see it s a good analogy if you consider the animal as the sound you want and the enormous surroundings you'll get from a distance as unwanted noise. The unwanted noise can get so large the animal is hardly visible anymore.
 
Well you could see it s a good analogy if you consider the animal as the sound you want and the enormous surroundings you'll get from a distance as unwanted noise.

No, I don't see that as a good analogy. You can still use a nice wide shot with animals in the distance, while I don't see how you can use sound which is just noise + some barely or not at all comprehensible dialogue. Now, if you're suggesting using a camera where the picture is mainly noise + a barely visible image, that would be a better analogy.

G
 
The problem I have with having any kind of discussion with you is that I'm never quite sure if you're being deliberately obtuse or simply not reading what I wrote carefully. Believe it or not I actually anticipated you'd make this argument and changed the wording on the analogy before I posted it specifically to avoid confusion, and yet somehow you still managed to get it wrong.

Not the same analogy. The built-in mics/recorders in cameras represent the worst audio recording money can buy and the result is generally either very bad or unusable.

Go back and re-read what I wrote. You said built-in mics, not me. I'm not talking about hardware quality at all. You could have the greatest mic in the world, but if you mount it on the camera instead of booming it as close as possible to the actors mouths you're going to end up with your dialogue getting lost in the ambient sound. It's exactly the same problem as using a lens that's too wide and having your subject get lost amid the background details of the environment. Quality of the equipment has absolutely nothing to do with it. The cheapest boomed mic will get you better results than any mic mounted on the camera, just like the cheapest zoom lens will get you better results than the best 50mm lens in this situation.
 
The cheapest boomed mic will get you better results than any mic mounted on the camera, just like the cheapest zoom lens will get you better results than the best 50mm lens in this situation.

That's exactly my point!!! He doesn't have a zoom lens or the budget for one and your response is that he simply has to get the budget, reallocate the existing budget or he's out of luck. I'm saying that it's a shame/mistake that most lo/no budget filmmakers don't apply this same logic to sound. It's not difficult to understand what I'm saying so don't go throwing around insults like "obtuse" just because you don't!

A technically good shot can be a bad shot storywise...

Yes it can but it can also just as easily be a good shot storywise. Noise + barely comprehensible dialogue is bad technically AND virtually always bad storywise as well, particularly in a doco!

G
 
That's exactly my point!!! He doesn't have a zoom lens or the budget for one and your response is that he simply has to get the budget, reallocate the existing budget or he's out of luck. I'm saying that it's a shame/mistake that most lo/no budget filmmakers don't apply this same logic to sound. It's not difficult to understand what I'm saying so don't go throwing around insults like "obtuse" just because you don't!

I understand exactly what you're saying. When I say you appear to be "deliberately obtuse" it's not meant as an insult - it's an observation based on the fact that I know you're intelligent enough to read and comprehend what I wrote, but you choose to respond to it with an unrelated argument about the quality of the audio equipment rather than the basic functionality.

And what you actually said was that the IT community usually didn't apply this same logic to audio suggestions, and that's what I'm disagreeing with. When people mention that they've got a mic but they're planning to mount it on the camera (or they're planning to use the internal mic) it's almost immediately met with suggestions that they need to get it off the camera and as close to the subject as possible.

Notice there was no discussion in this thread about the quality of the lenses. No one suggested he needed to upgrade his 50mm lens to a more expensive one, no one suggested anything less than an Angenieux Optimo would produce inadequate results for theatrical projection. There was no discussion of sharpness, contrast, resolution, or any of the other optical qualities of the lens. It was purely based on choosing the appropriate type of equipment - not higher quality equipment.

All we suggested is that at minimum he needed a zoom rather than a mid-range prime, which is very similar to the standard suggestion I see all the time on IT that people should get at least a boom & mic rather than mounting the mic on their camera (or using the built in one).
 
All we suggested is that at minimum he needed a zoom rather than a mid-range prime, which is very similar to the standard suggestion I see all the time on IT that people should get at least a boom & mic rather than mounting the mic on their camera (or using the built in one).

And as I stated earlier, recording decent/half decent production sound is only the first, starting step of ending up with decent sound for a film/doco. For that first step, the suggestion of boom/mic/ext recorder is a basic minimum, there are basic minimums for the subsequent steps too, just as a zoom lens is a basic minimum for the filming situation/requirements as described!

G
 
Ok, we're making some progress - we agree that those two situations are roughly equivalent; the analogy itself is valid. Let's move on to why I used that analogy in the first place.

Here's what you originally wrote that prompted me to use it:

What's interesting is in the case of poor sound/sound design, the answer I most commonly hear on IT is something along the lines of; "of course I'd like better sound but we didn't have the budget", "as amateurs/no budget indie filmmakers we've got to learn to do the best with what we've got", etc. In this case though, when it comes to the cinematography, the advice is entirely different and along the lines of; "you need the right equipment", "get more budget", "reallocate the existing budget", "the producer doesn't know what he's doing", "it's going to be a wasted effort/budget". ?!!!

You're citing this thread as an example of how IT responds differently to audio vs. cinematography questions, but it's a false equivalency.

The suggestions in this thread to allocate more budget to the cinematography are entirely focused on acquiring the bare minimum tools necessary to achieve the stated goal - a starting point.

There are countless threads on IT where similar suggestions are made about audio - that at minimum people should invest in a mic/boom/recorder setup in order to record dialogue; again, a starting point.

The paraphrased quotes you cite as examples of the typical audio responses are just as commonly heard around here in regards to cinematography - "of course I'd like [a better camera/picture/lenses/etc] but we don't have the budget". And "as amateurs/no budget indie filmmakers we've got to learn to do the best with what we've got" applies equally to, and is commonly heard around here in regards to, both audio and visuals. Most people here are working with, and discussing, 'prosumer' cinematography equipment that would be consider little more than a minimum starting point by most professionals.

I'm not disputing your larger assertion that indie filmmakers should be putting as much focus on audio as visuals, just your assertion that this thread is an example of how the IT community neglects to recommend acquiring the basic equipment necessary for audio while doing the opposite for cinematography.

And the truth is the same argument you're usually making about what's required for professional quality audio, and the lack of focus on it here (or even awareness of it), can be made about cinematography as well. For all the threads debating cameras, there's comparatively little discussion around here about lighting - which is honestly more important to cinematography than the camera is.

It may seem to you that there is an excessive focus on visuals around here compared to audio, but that's biased by your own knowledge and experience in the audio realm; a professional cinematographer would likely have similar observations about the level of attention paid to the important aspects of cinematography. In fact I would argue that the presence and participation of people like you and Alcove in the discussions here may result in a higher general awareness of the professional audio shortcomings of low/no budget filmmaking compared to the visual side. Of course that awareness may or may not translate into actual improvement - budgetary restrictions still dictate that people have to "do the best with what [they've] got". But the fact is there's no equivalent to the two of you on the cinematography side who's jumping into camera discussions and saying "don't forget - lighting is half the experience!" and discussing what makes the difference between amateur and professional cinematography.
 
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