archived-videos Indie Film Tech Tips (for beginners)

sonnyboo

sonnyboo

For our PBS show FRAMELINES we've been doing a series of short videos on the basics of filmmaking, some on cinematography, others on editing, etc.

Since these wind up being quite handy to the newbs (sp. noobs?) I thought I would share these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdS6Cu_u9h4
 
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Hey Sonny. Just got one issue. You say that you can break the 180, only if you show the camera crossing the line and use it in the edit. I'm not sure I agree with this.

In the scene below in Pulp fiction, the line is broken several times, every time with an establishing shot. I am never disorientated as a viewer. I always know where people are. The camera is never shown crossing the line.

Just food for thought :). Check around 2:40.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DU9iQMnVFM
 
trueindie-

I think it is important to point out here that SonnyBoo's post are designed for beginners. For people who are just starting out. Once you have been in the business long enough and know about the rule to where you understand editing, shooting, and directing down to a "T", then you can break the rule if you want and know how to. I don't think we should be comparing any beginner or newbie to Tarantino or Andrzej Sekula. These are professionals who know exactly what they are doing. Which is why that scene works so well.

I just took a master class with Vilmos Zsigmond and there were people in there giving him suggestions on what to do with the camera and how to light a scene. I don't think he is going to need any suggestions on how to light or shoot. He knows just what to do in any situation and beginners need to learn from the beginning and not try to jump in the middle.

Maybe I'm wrong about this but I think that is what SonnyBoo was going for.
 
Brooksy -
No argument from me regarding beginners. I am a bit of a beginner myself.

I was writing this thing to make a point and it just seems to come out all wrong and negative, which is not my intention. So I deleted the whole damn thing.

The only point I have, whether for beginners or for anybody is that there is no rule. And I don't agree with the notion that I need to know a rule to break it. Everybody says it to me all the time. Maybe it's because my lack of knowledge of the rules shows :). I think I just want to tell a story. I need to figure out how to do it so that I can tell it and not confuse the hell out of people. That's all I aim for.

I find that I come across new rules all the time. Sometimes I agree with them and sometimes I don't. I pick and choose. And I'm comfortable with it.

Anyway, no argument from me Sonny. I was just continuing the discussion.
:)
best,
Aveek
 
Actually, let me be a little more honest :D

I tried breaking the 180 in one of my shorts. And the average viewer never mentioned a thing. But every filmmaker pointed out that I broke the 180 and I should have "shown" it.

It just bothered me. My hate for filmmakers continued to overflow :D. I asked every non-filmmaker who saw it, about that scene. None of them registered it. But oh the "filmmakers" they were soooooo quick to point out how I didn't know what I was doing, when I actually planned to break the 180 in the pre-production. It wasn't an accident. I friggin planned it that way. And then,... heh heh... then, when I mentioned that fact, one of these "filmmakers" told me, "lets face it Aveek, you're just not that good."

I've seen that filmmakers work. Believe me, all he is good for is being a film critic. So Sonny's example just reminded me of that douche and I just had to say something :D

I hope you understand my sometimes thin artist's skin.

Good Tips Sonny :). Nice work. Keep it up. Hope to catch the series on PBS.
Best,
Aveek
 
trueindie said:
Hey Sonny. Just got one issue. You say that you can break the 180, only if you show the camera crossing the line and use it in the edit. I'm not sure I agree with this.

In the scene below in Pulp fiction, the line is broken several times, every time with an establishing shot. I am never disorientated as a viewer. I always know where people are. The camera is never shown crossing the line.

Just food for thought :). Check around 2:40.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DU9iQMnVFM
Click to expand...

In the much more advanced level of directing with PIVOTS, you can see that Quentin adheres the 180 degree rule but uses the HINGING once The 3rd person is entered on an axis in that scene. All of that is still done without the camera panning too.

A "rule" is too strong a word. It's more of an effective technique that helps orient the viewer. If your intent is to not orient the viewer, or if you to point out a change in the scene (also relevant at the moment things change in the above scene), then "breaking the rule" is adequate.

If you feel the audience won't be lost, then use whatever method is effective.
 
trueindie said:
The only point I have, whether for beginners or for anybody is that there is no rule. And I don't agree with the notion that I need to know a rule to break it. Everybody says it to me all the time. Maybe it's because my lack of knowledge of the rules shows :). I think I just want to tell a story. I need to figure out how to do it so that I can tell it and not confuse the hell out of people. That's all I aim for.
Click to expand...
An interesting point of view, Aveek.

But you say you sometimes agree with "rules" so there are some
good rules. Right?

One way to figure out how to tell a story visually is to understand
the grammar of visual storytelling. We all understand the grammar
of the written word and when writing for others we follow those
"rules". When we don't, we confuse people who are reading our work.
When we ignore the rule of spelling words correctly we are less effective
writers.

Visual storytelling is no different.

What if the word is changed? What if the word is changed to
"guidelines"? Would you say, "I don't agree with the notion that I
need to know a guideline to break it."?

I respect that you don't agree with the notion. We all have different
points of view. I happen to think knowing the rules (or another word
that makes you comfortable) is essential to learning to communicate
with others. The fact that you can point out time when the rules can
be broken proves that to me. As directors we should understand the
rules. Many times a beginning director crosses the line and doesn't
quite understand why the shot doesn't work. They know it doesn't but
they don't know why. Learning the "rule" helps a director figure out
how to tell a story visually. A director who then chooses to break the
"rule" is making a creative decision and not making a mistake. Do you
disagree with that notion?

Sorry for derailing your thread, Sonnyboo.
 
Nice posts, Sonnyboo.

Aveek, I'd be curious to see the infamous film you made, with the broken 180 rule. Any chance of seeing it? And, yeah, I don't mean to gang up on you, but like the others have said, Tarantino ain't exactly a beginner. I highly recommend the 180 rule, for all beginners, and I myself follow it almost 100% of the time.
 
Cracker Funk said:
Nice posts, Sonnyboo.

Aveek, I'd be curious to see the infamous film you made, with the broken 180 rule. Any chance of seeing it? And, yeah, I don't mean to gang up on you, but like the others have said, Tarantino ain't exactly a beginner. I highly recommend the 180 rule, for all beginners, and I myself follow it almost 100% of the time.
Click to expand...

It's my italian mafia movie at 2:40 and at 4:56
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hCh6CJI77g

I thought that I established the scene when I crossed the line by having everyone in the scene. Most people weren't confused as to the layout. But I showed it at a filmmakers club here and everybody unanimously pointed it out. (Gawd I hate filmmakers)

I was arguing about it with my DP for two days before I shot it. He didn't want to do it. I did it anyway. And I still don't have a problem with it. In fact I like it... very much :grumpy:
 
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Okay, so I think I'd agree with you, to the extent that when you broke the 180-rule, in your scene, it's not really any different than in the "Be Cool, Hunny-Bunny" scene you posted in that other thread. It's not so jarring to take you out of the scene, and only a filmmaker would notice it. Plus, with that extra character there, and he's a focal point of the shot, do we have a new line of action? I think it's debatable whether or not you even broke the rule.

However, to be honest, if it were me, I would've played it safe, and simply changed the blocking, to get the supposed FBI agent on the other side of the room.
 
Cracker Funk said:
Okay, so I think I'd agree with you, to the extent that when you broke the 180-rule, in your scene, it's not really any different than in the "Be Cool, Hunny-Bunny" scene you posted in that other thread. It's not so jarring to take you out of the scene, and only a filmmaker would notice it. Plus, with that extra character there, and he's a focal point of the shot, do we have a new line of action? I think it's debatable whether or not you even broke the rule.
Click to expand...
I thank you for your understanding and your appreciation of the scene as not being that complicated :D

However, to be honest, if it were me, I would've played it safe, and simply changed the blocking, to get the supposed FBI agent on the other side of the room.
Click to expand...

Hell man, it's a bloody short film. Not a GD masterpiece. I'm doing these things to learn. And everybody's telling me "don't do it." I just don't get it.

This particular short I did, primarily as a test to see if I could pull off a mob scene conversation. That's all this thing was, an educational endeavor. So why the hell should I not try everything? I've done two shorts where all I was trying to do was to see if I could pull off something I planned. In both instances, I liked my attempt, I learned things I didn't know before, specially about lighting and sound, but I'm happy with them. And I'm content that they're not going to win any medals.

Edit: Sorry Sonnyboo. This is your thread :(
 
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trueindie said:
Hey Sonny. Just got one issue. You say that you can break the 180, only if you show the camera crossing the line and use it in the edit. I'm not sure I agree with this.

In the scene below in Pulp fiction, the line is broken several times, every time with an establishing shot. I am never disorientated as a viewer. I always know where people are. The camera is never shown crossing the line.

Just food for thought :). Check around 2:40.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DU9iQMnVFM
Click to expand...

Here's a scene from Paper Moon, 1973. Watch carefully at 0:41, 0:58, 2:02 as the 180 degree angle changes two times.
What Peter Bogdanovich says about this scene is this: " Now you see Ryan's on the left, Tatum's on the right. And in order to turn around and shoot the interior, as he moves, on the movement we cut to a direct reverse, you see? Now he's on the opposite side. Audience never notices because of the movement. Howard Hawks once told me, "Always cut on movement and the audience won't notice." "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXWVS3ccRRA
 
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