working out who / what is required for your feature film crew

[derek smith]

I have been using IMDB to see the 'Cast & Crew' lists for Independent Films. It has surprised me with the difference in the numbers of Crews in such films. Some films were I thought would have few people working on, actually had dozens, and vice versa.....

My question is, how do you really know, what is required for your Independent Feature Film. With me, I covered the main roles first (Director, DOP, Sound etc)...then thought about additional roles (location manager, Key Grip).....Do you personally try and look for someone who can multi task???

 

[pictureplanet]

Look at the crew list for Monsters. Then watch it if you haven't.

Pretty humbling.

 

[directorik]

We're practically in agreement but the problem is that we're "discussing" a generic production and every production has its own needs. So discussion any "list" makes little sense if we don't know the details - wouldn't you agree?

An excellent evasion of the question.

 

[derek smith]

Look at the crew list for Monsters. Then watch it if you haven't.

Pretty humbling.

in what way humbling???.....Monsters is a big favourite of mine, but the cast list is quite big

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Some people get married to the way studio films make their work, some try to combine roles or go against the grain. You'll have people who will vehemently disagree with me (and that's fine), but I think it's very possible to have a crew of a handful.

I both agree with you and vehemently disagree! For amateur films, designed for youtube or other self distribution, I'd agree with you. For professional features, designed for theatrical or broadcast distribution and eventually to make a profit, then I'd disagree.

I was just pointing out that it isn't the only way to make a feature and that many successful features had only a handful of crew members.

That depends on your definition of "success". What is your definition of success and can you name a few of the "many" which achieved it with only a handful of crew members?

I think that in a low budget you have to think differently from a technical POV and concentrate more on the story. Ultimately that's what the audience will see and judge.

These two sentences sound reasonable on the face of it but in practise there's a huge gulf between them! When one looks beneath the surface, one inevitably needs to address what "audience will see and judge"? In practise the vast majority of lo/no budget indie features are in effect made by the filmmaker for themselves rather than for an audience and will probably end up with a few thousand views or so on Youtube. If a filmmaker wants substantially more from their film than this, then the size and abilities of the crew needs to increase significantly beyond a handful.

My question is, how do you really know, what is required for your Independent Feature Film.

As others have said, there are many variables but IMHO, the first question to ask, even before budget, is; what are you making your film for (Youtube, low tier film festivals, high tier film festivals, TV broadcast, theatrical distribution, etc)? Along with your script (genre, number of actors/locations, VFX, etc.) this will determine the size and abilities of your crew and how much budget you will realistically need.

G

 

[JayRuz]

That depends on your definition of "success". What is your definition of success and can you name a few of the "many" which achieved it with only a handful of crew members?

First name that came to mind was Mark Duplass and Jay Duplass. They made The Puffy Chair and Baghead with only a handful of crew members. They also made it into Sundance with a short film in which Mark acted and Jay ran camera. No other crew (and not even a script) and was shot on a 1-chip minidv camera with no external mic and next to no post production. Sam Raimi's cult hit The Evil Dead, which launched his career, had only a handful of crew members. I believe Kevin Smith only had 6 or 7 crew members on Clerks. El Mariachi I believe was the same.

Point being, it can be done. It doesn't work for every film but it can work for some.

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

First name that came to mind was Mark Duplass and Jay Duplass. They made The Puffy Chair and Baghead with only a handful of crew members. They also made it into Sundance with a short film in which Mark acted and Jay ran camera. No other crew (and not even a script) and was shot on a 1-chip minidv camera with no external mic and next to no post production. Sam Raimi's cult hit The Evil Dead, which launched his career, had only a handful of crew members. I believe Kevin Smith only had 6 or 7 crew members on Clerks. El Mariachi I believe was the same.

Point being, it can be done. It doesn't work for every film but it can work for some.

As you said tt depends on the type of film you want to make. You could absolutely make Clerks or Puffy Chair with a crew of 2 or 3. Of course you might not (and I don't) have any interest in making either of those films.

El Mariachi went through about a millions dollars of post production to get it to a state where it was fit for wide release. A lot of that because he didn't have an audio guy so they had to redo 100% of the audio in post.

I can did the foundation for a house with a shovel and a wheelbarrow too, doesn't mean I wouldn't try to avoid that if at all possible.

 

[JayRuz]

As you said tt depends on the type of film you want to make. You could absolutely make Clerks or Puffy Chair with a crew of 2 or 3. Of course you might not (and I don't) have any interest in making either of those films.

El Mariachi went through about a millions dollars of post production to get it to a state where it was fit for wide release. A lot of that because he didn't have an audio guy so they had to redo 100% of the audio in post.

I can did the foundation for a house with a shovel and a wheelbarrow too, doesn't mean I wouldn't try to avoid that if at all possible.

Agreed. I should state I'm not for or against either side. It is possible to make a feature film that is successful with a handful of crew members. Some films are too large in scope for it to be an option. It really depends on several factors.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

They made The Puffy Chair and Baghead with only a handful of crew members.

According to IMDB, 5 people in the sound department alone and apparently just a gaffer and no one else in the filming crew for The Puffy Chair! Baghead also has more than a handful, plus at least some missing from IMDb. And, those are shorts, not features.

Sam Raimi's cult hit The Evil Dead, which launched his career, had only a handful of crew members.

Again, just the sound dept had 7 people, that's more than a handful without any of the other departments!

I believe Kevin Smith only had 6 or 7 crew members on Clerks.

IMDB lists over 20!

El Mariachi I believe was the same.

IMDb does not list all the Columbia Pictures audio post crew who re-recorded the entire sound from scratch, neither does it mention the roughly $320k it cost to make El Mariachi distributable.

Point being, it can be done. It doesn't work for every film but it can work for some.

Point being, you haven't made a case that it can be done, none of those films were made with just a handful of crew! You also didn't say what you meant by success, the examples of Evil Dead, El Mariachi and Clerks were theatrical box-office successes but all are 20-30 years old. Do you have any examples in say the last 5 years of successful features made with a handful of crew?

G

 

[JayRuz]

According to IMDB, 5 people in the sound department alone and apparently just a gaffer and no one else in the filming crew for The Puffy Chair! Baghead also has more than a handful, plus at least some missing from IMDb. And, those are shorts, not features.



Again, just the sound dept had 7 people, that's more than a handful without any of the other departments!



IMDB lists over 20!



IMDb does not list all the Columbia Pictures audio post crew who re-recorded the entire sound from scratch, neither does it mention the roughly $320k it cost to make El Mariachi distributable.



Point being, you haven't made a case that it can be done, none of those films were made with just a handful of crew! You also didn't say what you meant by success, the examples of Evil Dead, El Mariachi and Clerks were theatrical box-office successes but all are 20-30 years old. Do you have any examples in say the last 5 years of successful features made with a handful of crew?

G

I am speaking about crew members who were on set during production. Obviously, additional crew will be needed in post. Though this topic seems to be more focused on who should be there on set.

The Puffy Chair and Baghead were features. The launched the career of the Duplass brothers. Recently, Mark Duplass acted in and produced "Creep", which was many times just him and the director on set shooting. No one else. It's been gained a lot of buzz when it screened at SXSW.

During The Evil Dead, over 70% of the shoot was literally Sam Raimi, Rob Tapert, Tim Philo and Josh Becker. Tom Sullivan was there for a few weeks to help with special makeup effects, but left at some point over the Winter.

Perhaps the best known case is The Blair Witch Project in which many shots were the cast alone operating cameras.

It can be done and has. Once again, it depends on the scope of the project.

 

[SixOhThree]

Perhaps the best known case is The Blair Witch Project in which many shots were the cast alone operating cameras.

I was also thinking of Paranormal Activity, which is only 5-7 years old. Started with a tiny crew, got the right amount of attention, and now it's a hugely profitable franchise.

 

[JayRuz]

I was also thinking of Paranormal Activity, which is only 5-7 years old. Started with a tiny crew, got the right amount of attention, and now it's a hugely profitable franchise.

Yes, good call!

Edit: Related, here is a great link from Raindance for those who are interested. It gives you recommendations of what you can work with for different budget levels in terms of gear and crew. http://www.raindance.org/your-basic-filmmaking-kit-crew-a-3-level-guide/

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I am speaking about crew members who were on set during production. Obviously, additional crew will be needed in post. Though this topic seems to be more focused on who should be there on set.

Strange that isn't it? If the post crew are not "crew" what are they? And, do they not have to be accounted for?

Perhaps the best known case is The Blair Witch Project in which many shots were the cast alone operating cameras.

As with El Mariachi, huge sums (many times the listed budget) were spent making the film distributable. And again, 11 just in the sound dept, hardly a handful!

It can be done and has.

Yes it has been done. Over 100 years ago one guy with a film camera filmed a train approaching for a few minutes, no other cast or crew and it was a success! The question is, can a feature be made today with a tiny crew and be successful? If your definition of success is finishing and posting it up on Youtube then yes it can be done but if you're talking about box office success then no it can't and you have not provided any contemporary examples of features which demonstrate it can.

I was also thinking of Paranormal Activity, which is only 5-7 years old. Started with a tiny crew, got the right amount of attention, and now it's a hugely profitable franchise.

Yes, but only if you miss out everything in between getting started and being a "hugely profitable franchise"! For example, the over $500k spent on the large uncredited post-production crew to make the original film distributable, just as with the Blair Witch and El Mariachi. So PA isn't a good example either, do you have any good, recent examples?

G

 

[SixOhThree]

I'm not trying to get combative here man but you can't completely discount that those films started with a small crew and tiny budget. I completely agree that they needed the Hollywood treatment to market them and technically sound for widespread distribution. But this all happened after production had wrapped initially and the films were sent to festivals.

Maybe we're arguing semantics. But if the original question was regarding designating roles in pre-production, those films proved that you don't need a crew of 20+ to become successful.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I completely agree that they got the Hollywood treatment to market them and technically sound for widespread distribution. But this all happened after production had wrapped initially and the films were sent to festivals.

You are talking about a handful of films over the last 20+ years, out of the hundreds of thousands of indie films made in that period and the most recent of them 7 years ago! Do you have any examples of features made this decade which had tiny crews (to start with) and then got the Hollywood (large crew) treatment?

if the original question was regarding designating roles in pre-production, those films proved that you don't need a crew of 20+ to become successful.

If that were the original question (which it wasn't!!), all those films prove was that it was possible to be successful with a small starting crew, not that it is possible today. Maybe there are some contemporary examples which prove it's possible today but I personally don't know of any, do you?

G

 

[JayRuz]

I'm not trying to get combative here man but you can't completely discount that those films started with a small crew and tiny budget. I completely agree that they needed the Hollywood treatment to market them and technically sound for widespread distribution. But this all happened after production had wrapped initially and the films were sent to festivals.

Maybe we're arguing semantics. But if the original question was regarding designating roles in pre-production, those films proved that you don't need a crew of 20+ to become successful.

Exactly

APE, I understand those involved with post a crew. My posts were to support that you didn't need a large crew on your set during production to be successful. You wanted examples and I gave you them. If you'd like, let's just single out The Puffy Chair, which was made in 2004. Or we can follow the film 'Creep' after it's SXSW run where it looks to be getting distribution and a potential theater run. Do some of these movies need a lot of money and extra hands in post? Sure. But the topic on hand is how many people you need on set with you during production and my opinion is that you don't always need a large crew.

My opinion on success is getting some sort of distribution and making its money back. You obviously wouldn't make Spider-Man 3 with a handful of crew. But you don't need a huge crew to make a movie like The Evil Dead, The Puffy Chair or Paranormal Activity.

EDIT: Uncle Kent was made with a crew of pretty much no one. It had distribution and would be considered successful for an indie film.

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

All the REALLY shoddy production work in Evil Dead (from not having much of a crew) added to the charm of that film. Those films happen, absolutely. However, most films with shoddy production work are just crap. You can't build your plan on being the very rare exception.

 

[danielp]

An excellent evasion of the question.

Not at all.

My original question to you was:"what are you doing that you need such a large crew in a low budget."

Maybe I shouldn't have said "large", but we never defined "low budget". Maybe I'm thinking less than 20k, and you're thinking 250k, where you can afford the crew you described. We never defined pay rate, or anything. I wanted to get to those details, that's all.

Without specifics we're just speculating. I'm not trying to be right; I was just trying to understand how you came up with that list when no one mentioned budget, type of movie, number of locations, what kind of locations, etc.

 

[danielp]

However, most films with shoddy production work are just crap. You can't build your plan on being the very rare exception.

I think you build a plan that works for you and your expectations.
There are many films being made around the world using very little resources and crew that are true gems.
And there are well produced films that don't go anywhere or are "crap" like you say.
And viceversa.
At the end it's all about content and how it's portrayed; what techniques you use, etc.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

But the topic on hand is how many people you need on set with you during production and my opinion is that you don't always need a large crew.

No it isn't!! The OP did not specify on-set crew only he said crew, in fact he specifically stated "I have been using IMDB to see the 'Cast & Crew' lists for Independent Films" and the cast and crew lists on IMDb include all the crew, not just the on-set crew.

But you don't need a huge crew to make a movie like The Evil Dead, The Puffy Chair or Paranormal Activity.

No you don't and as I said you need an even smaller crew to make a film of a train approaching. The crew size one could make a successful film with over 100 years ago is NOT the same as the crew size needed 30 years ago, which is different from what was needed 7 years ago and different again to today.

My opinion on success is getting some sort of distribution and making its money back...

Your goal posts appear to be changing, you started off quoting commercially successful films and now you're saying a film doesn't have to be commercially successful for you to consider it successful, if it makes no money except to cover it's cost you consider it successful. That's fine, you can define "success" however you wish and, this goes straight back to my original post about the size of cast needed to achieve what you consider to be success. Using your definition, success could be a $1k budget feature, distributed on Youtube and/or other self distribution platforms which over a period of time grosses $1k. By your definition, I would agree that you can get away with a tiny crew (total crew!).

G

 

[SixOhThree]

All the REALLY shoddy production work in Evil Dead (from not having much of a crew) added to the charm of that film. Those films happen, absolutely. However, most films with shoddy production work are just crap. You can't build your plan on being the very rare exception.

Very good point. I worked in a multiplex when Blair Witch Project was released - courtesy of the amateur camera work I had to clean many more vomit puddles in the theater than usual. Probably not the best legacy for your film!