• Wondering which camera, gear, computer, or software to buy? Ask in our Gear Guide.

Workflow with composers.

I was wondering what the most efficient way to send your film to composers to score. I have had issues in the past, and I am curious to hear what you recommend. Thanks! :cool:

Chimp
 
Usually a low-res H264 with the sound mix is best, but temp sound is usually do-able. Music and VIS FX can usually be done at the same time, depending on the project. However if you were doing say Star Wars Episode 1 you may want more of the vis FX in before you score.

The farther along you can provide material, the better the composer can compose cues to hit at perfect times given the action on-screen.

Now that's not to say you can't give the composer the script while you're shooting and let them develop themes and given them inspirational material to highlight things you're looking for. But then again - some people don't care to hear the temp music or work solo.

It really matters what your style and approach is, and finding a composer that compliments that.

- Jow
 
As a composer, in an ideal world you'd send me a final locked edit, in as small of a file size as possible with the timecode burned in. I don't need high-rez super detailed images, but I do need the file to be at the framerate you are working with.

Personally, I'd rather not have temp score, but if any of the cues aren't working the way you want, it's good at that point to have a couple examples of what you're looking for. I can definitely start getting ideas from the script if I get hired before editing, but things do tend to change drastically when you actually see things.

As an aside, on Facebook there was a post from Peter Jackson, talking about shipping edits off to Howard Shore (for the Hobbit pt. 2). Their workflow/goal is to get Shore 10 minutes of final edits per week for him to work with. In that particular post, they were short and only managed to get him 7. But, again, every composer/director workflow is different and like any other collaboration, learning to work with each other is part of the process.
 
I also second low-res video, timecode, and no temp score. Also, don't mess with the score after the fact without informing the composer first.

Actually, so far I've only scored my own video projects so I don't know how much help my advice would be, but as a composer, I know that's the way I want to work. I guess I'd need a bit more information on the way that you personally work, too, and what type of attitude you take toward toward the music and composer. I like the idea of great working relationships myself, Eisenstein/Prokofiev, Hitchcock/Herrmann, Spielberg/Williams, Zemeckis/Silvestri, etc. If you can find someone that is willing to work with you over a series of films, you'll both be better for it - building a long-term relationship is a great way to work. That said, how comfortable are you right now handing over your film to someone, and waiting to be surprised by what they come up with? Can you trust your composer that much? If that's not you, then you should be meeting with your composer regularly to talk about the music, to get updates, give feedback, and help shape the score the way you envision it, because the more you can communicate the happier you'll both be in the end.

Eisenstein and Prokofiev had a truly special relationship on Alexander Nevsky and Ivan the Terrible, a true partnership that began before Eisenstein even started filming, and the two of them shaped film and score together, to the point that Eisenstein cut some of the film around finished music rather than having Prokofiev alter his score. On the other end of the spectrum, you have Ridley Scott and Jerry Goldsmith on Alien, where Scott handed Goldsmith the film and didn't see him again until the scoring sessions, where he asked Goldsmith to re-score much of the film. After that, Scott still didn't communicate, and in the finished film much of the score was thrown out in favor of a pre-existing score (to Goldsmith's Freud), truncated, or mixed down in favor of sound effects...not a way to treat your composer. I suppose most relationships are somewhere in between those two examples.

If you have ideas for how you want the score to sound, then tell your composer. Go through the film with him/her and spot it. Don't be a slave to the temp score, or better yet, don't even edit with one (Shymalan doesn't, not that I want every director to be just like M. Night Shymalan), and certainly don't show it to your composer - give him/her the freedom to be creative and you'll be pleasantly surprised at what becomes of it. That said, if you have the fortune to work with someone truly great, someone with a body of work that you happen to like a lot and someone you have the ability to trust, then the more freedom you can give that composer the better. Speaking for myself, it sure would be nice for someone to hand me a finished film and say "Here you go, surprise me, I'm sure it'll be wonderful. See you in six months..." That's the kind of working relationship I dream of.
 
Last edited:
I was wondering what the most efficient way to send your film to composers to score. I have had issues in the past, and I am curious to hear what you recommend.

This is virtually always caused by composers who are inexperienced with the technicalities of film/video and who are not able to accurately specify the format/resolution of the video they require. It can also be caused by inexperienced picture editors who do not know how to create what has been specified. As described, your problem sounds like the former though.

I personally would not want a low-res video but some composers do, there is no set rule, it depends on the equipment the composer is using and how they work. It's the composer's job to specify the deliverables they require, not your job to guess. If a composer does not or cannot accurately specify the deliverables they require, that should immediately ring alarm bells that they don't know what they are doing!!

I personally would want to have the temp score but I would want it on one channel and the dialogue on a separate channel, so I can play the dialogue on it's own with my composition to get a rough idea of how they work together. But again, not all composers would necessarily work this way and they should specify exactly what it is they do need.

Also, don't mess with the score after the fact without informing the composer first.

With all due respect, this sounds like a typical statement a music composer/producer rather than a film score creator would make! Professionally, the music score is always messed with after the fact, there are usually quite a few significant changes and countless minor changes made. It would be impossible to inform the composer of all the necessary changes at any stage, let alone first! One of the first things a music composer has to learn is that films do not revolve around the music (or the composer) but the other way around, the music revolves around the film and will be dropped entirely, edited or changed in anyway the director and/or re-recording mixer sees fit to make the film work better (in their opinion) and the composer will usually never be informed or have any say in the matter. If the director had to inform the composer, screenwriter or actors before every change or edit to their work, no film would ever get finished!

... as a composer, I know that's the way I want to work.

In the professional world, how the composer wants to work is largely irrelevant! Again, in commercial film/TV making, how the composer works has to revolve around the film and around professional film making workflows, not the other way around. In practice a film score composer has to learn to let go of their composition once it has been delivered and accept whatever changes the director, sound designer and/or re-recording mixer see fit. If you are not willing to do this then maybe you are more suited to being a music composer/producer rather than a film score creator?

On the other end of the spectrum, you have Ridley Scott and Jerry Goldsmith on Alien, where Scott handed Goldsmith the film and didn't see him again until the scoring sessions, where he asked Goldsmith to re-score much of the film. After that, Scott still didn't communicate, and in the finished film much of the score was thrown out in favor of a pre-existing score (to Goldsmith's Freud), truncated, or mixed down in favor of sound effects...not a way to treat your composer. I suppose most relationships are somewhere in between those two examples.

Not really! Like it or not, this is not the "other end of the spectrum" but a pretty standard modern professional film/TV workflow. If you are hoping/expecting a director to re-cut a film around your music rather than having to re-score your music then you are going to be sorely disappointed! Whether or not you think that is the way a composer should be treated is irrelevant. Even in post-production, a film does not revolve around the composer or the music. The director has many responsibilities during post-production and the music, while important, is not the only or even the highest priority. This means the time the director has available to spend communicating with the composer is usually very limited. This is one of the perennial difficulties a professional film score composer has to learn to deal with and even at the very top sometimes they don't! There isn't a film score composer alive (or probably even dead), even amongst the great film score composers, who hasn't many times had cues dropped, replaced, reduced in favour of SFX or even on occasion had their entire score thrown out or been fired.

As a professional film score composer you've got to be able to work to incredibly high standards, within ridiculous deadlines, with incomplete and frequently confusing/contradictory directions and you've got to have an incredibly thick skin. If you're not prepared to work under these conditions, there are tens of thousands of others who will!

None of this is to suggest that a director should treat their composer badly or disrespectfully but as the music and composer has to revolve around the film rather than the other way around, film score creators have to have a different definition of "disrespectful treatment" relative to music composers/producers. This is an important lesson for budding professional film score composers to learn and in the profession you won't be given many opportunities to learn it!!

I'm not having a go or being harsh with you Hammerstone, just explaining the harsh realities of being a professional film score composer.

G
 
In response to AudioPostExpert:

Out of curiosity, who is your favorite film composer? Is it Hans Zimmer?

Lots of good points, and you certainly take a very modernist approach in your attitudes. This is indeed the reality in which we live, and sadly a lot of composers are treated like crap, but not all. Suggesting that there is no other alternative strikes me as a ploy to defend a particular way of working. Must we all accept working conditions on par with Wal-Mart? Are opposing viewpoints automatically wrong, and is encouraging a filmmaker to be more conscientious to the artists and craftsmen working under him really so ludicrous? Is hoping for something better to be held in such contempt that it must demonstrate a break from reality?

There are two approaches/attitudes one can take:
-filmmaking is a collaborative process.
or
-filmmaking is contractual slave labor.

:weird:

If my prejudices and attitudes come through in my writing, that's fine with me; I don't apologize for being old-fashioned in anything I do, and if that makes me a dinosaur, then so be it. I do what I do because I love it, and no other reason. Will I ever get work as a composer? I'm not holding my breath.
 
Must we all accept working conditions on par with Wal-Mart? Are opposing viewpoints automatically wrong, and is encouraging a filmmaker to be more conscientious to the artists and craftsmen working under him really so ludicrous? Is hoping for something better to be held in such contempt that it must demonstrate a break from reality?

You don't have to accept anything. Part of life is finding your place in the world. There is nothing saying you have to accept certain working conditions. If those conditions aren't acceptable to you, then don't get yourself into those situations.

I was taught a while back, those who are the most flexible will enjoy more of what life has to offer. It's really your choice. If you're not interested in being in a situation that APE described, then there is a chance that it will limit your opportunities.


There are two approaches/attitudes one can take:
-filmmaking is a collaborative process.
or
-filmmaking is contractual slave labor.

Those are two options. I'm sure there are a lot of other approaches, for example: Every filmmaking experience is an opportunity.

If my prejudices and attitudes come through in my writing, that's fine with me; I don't apologize for being old-fashioned in anything I do, and if that makes me a dinosaur, then so be it. I do what I do because I love it, and no other reason. Will I ever get work as a composer? I'm not holding my breath.

Maybe the best thing you can do is find a filmmaker that needs a composer that works like you do.

There are a lot of staving composers out there who are willing to be flexible and do the jobs you're unwilling to do. The best thing about this world is there are a lot of jobs out there. Lots of options. No one can do every job that that the world offers.

Think of it like this. If Spielberg calls you up looking for a composer, what do you think the chances are that he'll adjust his filmmaking process to suit you?
 
Lots of good points, and you certainly take a very modernist approach in your attitudes.

Like many peering into the film/TV industry from the outside, you appear to have a very over-romaticised view of what the film/TV industry really is. I didn't state my personal approach or viewpoint in my previous post, I stated the facts, the reality of the marketplace in which professional film composers have to survive. Attempting to turn these facts into an optional "approach" or "viewpoint" appears to me to be an act of denial, in order to maintain this over-romanticised illusion.

...sadly a lot of composers are treated like crap, but not all. Suggesting that there is no other alternative strikes me as a ploy to defend a particular way of working. Must we all accept working conditions on par with Wal-Mart?

I am not defending any way of working or providing any personal opinion on modern working practices, I'm simply informing you of what those working practices are. As Sweetie said in effect, you don't have to accept Wal-Mart's working conditions, you have choices but, you ONLY have two choices: 1. Accept Wal-Mart's working conditions or 2. Do not accept Wal-Mart's working conditions and do not work for Wal-Mart! Your (or my) viewpoint or approach to Wal-Mart's working conditions are completely irrelevant because they do not in any way affect these two options and they certainly do not provide a third option.

You have to realise that Wal-Mart's working conditions have evolved as part of the solution to the problem of how to remain competitive in the retail sector of a free market economy. Other retailers in the same sector might have slightly better working conditions but not by much, because significantly better working conditions significantly increases operating overheads and proportionally reduces competitiveness. This is basic free market economic rules 101. The TV/film industries are just that, "industries" and therefore they too have to operate/survive within these same basic rules of a free market economy.

If you don't want to be "treated like crap" either don't attempt to be a professional in the film/TV industry or change your definition of "crap"!

Is hoping for something better to be held in such contempt that it must demonstrate a break from reality?

Yes! Just as with Wal-Mart, professional working practices/workflows in the TV/film industries have evolved to solve the problem of remaining competitive in a free economic marketplace. "Hoping for something better" is harmless but stating/demanding that you will only work under terms/conditions which are at odds with professional practices/workflows is literally "a break from reality", a break from the economic reality in which the film and TV industries exist!

There are two approaches/attitudes one can take:
-filmmaking is a collaborative process.
or
-filmmaking is contractual slave labor.

No, there are not two approaches one can take, professionally there is only one approach. To work as collaboratively as is practical WITHIN the constraints of modern film/TV workflows. While there is some wriggle room within these constrains, there is no where near as much as you are suggesting/demanding!

Your example of the Eisenstein/Prokofiev working relationship is vaguely interesting but irrelevant for 3 reasons: 1. Eisenstein is dead! 2. With all due respect, you are not Sergei Prokofiev and 3. Audience expectations, technology and the economic marketplace are entirely different and therefore commercial workflows are entirely different today than when Eisenstein was making films in the 1920's, 30's and 40's. Virtually no commercial filmmakers have, or would be able to have, workflows even vaguely similar to those of the 20's, 30's or 40's. Your approach is not just "old-fashioned", it makes you virtually unemployable professionally!

I specifically said "professionally" in the above paragraphs because your approach/viewpoint does not make you unemployable as an amateur. Amateur filmmaking is not, by definition, subject to the economic demands of the marketplace as is the film industry and therefore not constrained by professional workflows. Amateur filmmakers are therefore free to employ pretty much any working practices they choose, to accommodate the wishes of those with whom they want to work. As you would be earning little or no fee and as your survival is not dependent on obtaining a stream of paid work, you have a great deal more freedom to demand working practices which would be unacceptable professionally.

The problem for you and many amateur filmmakers is when you aspire/attempt to make the leap from amateur filmmaker to professional. Many/most amateur filmmakers have a romanticised notion that the professional film industry is largely the same as the amateur filmmaking world, just with a lot more money to make achieving their artistic goals easier. While there maybe a grain of truth in this, the reality is that there are vast differences between these two worlds and amateur filmmakers making the leap either have to rapidly relearn much of what they thought they knew about filmmaking or fail in the face of the harsh commercial realities of the film/TV industries. To be honest, I find it mind boggling that so many want/strive to become part of an industry without appearing to make any effort to understand what that industry actually is or what it requires/demands?!

At the end of the day, you only have 3 choices: 1. Try to become a professional film score composer and accept the working practices of the film/TV industry, 2. Remain an amateur film score composer and have much more control over your working practices or 3. Find work as a professional in some other industry. Regardless of your viewpoint or desired approach, there is nothing beyond these three choices!

Out of curiosity, who is your favorite film composer? Is it Hans Zimmer?

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make but I'll answer anyway. Hans Zimmer would not be in my top 20 list of favourite film composers and probably wouldn't even get into my list of the top 50. However, he would definitely feature in my top 20 list of most influential modern film composers.

G
 
Last edited:
If you're scoring your own films, absolutely do what makes you happy!

If you're scoring someone else's films, you are realizing someone else's vision. Absolutely, it's collaborative, and absolutely great communication results in a great film all around. But if the director (or producers, or studio, etc) don't like what you're doing, then it's up to them to direct you to what they want or replace you. It would be the same if you were an actor. The director is supposed to know what they want, and get people to realize their vision. If you make films, you understand how that goes. Doesn't mean the actors aren't collaborating and bringing themselves to the project.

All composers deal with that. I've had scores scrapped, cues mis-placed, edited or otherwise mangled, buried in poor sound mixes, you name it. Not once have I felt like "slave labor"...if I didn't want to be part of the process, I wouldn't do it. If I wanted 100% control, I'd do library music or start a band. Incidentally, I do the latter, so I have different outlets for different types of creative energy.

Feelings get hurt. No avoiding that. But read an interview with any given professional composer, and they've all gone through the same. In live performance they call it "paying your dues". And even top tier composers get their scores scrapped sometimes for various reasons. You file your work away and reuse the themes you liked for another project!

No one I've ever worked with has come close to mistreating me. Some are better to work with than others (clear communication rather than "nope, try again" type feedback). In my experience, the working conditions in the indie film world are decent for a composer. Maybe even better than in the pro world, with tighter deadlines and a more informed idea of what they want the end result to be.

Anyway, I guess I just wanted to say it's all a matter of how you look at it. I'm pretty optimistic in general, so there's my 2 cents.
 
Apologies. I must have misunderstood where you were coming from, and admittedly I feel a bit misunderstood myself, but I didn't come here to start fights. Quite the opposite. I do agree with a lot of what you guys have said and anything else isn't worth expending more energy over.

But still, who IS your favorite composer? Mine's Jerry Goldsmith.
 
Last edited:
But still, who IS your favorite composer? Mine's Jerry Goldsmith.

If I had to choose one, for overall innovation, craftsmanship and understanding/appreciation of the language of film making, it would be Ennio Morricone. For appreciation of the language of film and master-craftsmanship of orchestral scoring for film, John Williams stands out from the crowd, although he's not much of an innovator. I could continue in this vein and list a number of others who are favourites of mine for different reasons.

G
 
I recently worked on a project where I was given the entire completed score before I began work on the audio post. He worked with the (truly horrible) original production sound as given to him by the editor. This production sound track was the boomed mic and up to three lavs all jumbled together and highly limited/compressed to level the dialog.

The composer, I would guess, scored every last second of the project in what seemed an attempt to hide the excess noise. This, of course, left little room for a detailed sound design. I was in contact with the composer during the dialog edit. (During the dialog edit I put together my cue sheets for the Foley and sound effects.) When the dialog edit was completed I sent him the dialog stem and a list of the important sound effect and Foley cues. I even sliced and diced his score as an example of where I thought the score should breath or be entirely out. He apparently had never collaborated with the audio post side of the process, and, once he got over the "you're butchering my score" stage really got into it. As an example, there was a foot chase scene, and I felt it important to have the pounding footsteps in several places and requested that the percussion be dropped in those sections. In other places I wanted his white noise synth sound removed or modified so that the heavy breathing of the characters could become more prominent.

Once he heard the first temp mix he really got it, and even suggested some further score modifications - and had a couple of excellent sound design ideas.

On that same project there were some "magic/paranormal" sound effects I created that I worked on very hard, and with which I was quite pleased. The director didn't, however, so it was back to the drawing board.


You always have to keep in mind, if you are a composer, or sound designer (and, I would guess, art director, set designer, wardrobe, hair/MU, DP, etc.) that it is the directors project, not yours, and you have to bow to the story and the directors vision for the way s/he wants the story told.
 
had my first mini taste of this..
Working closely with the director, I created some original music for a spot I'm currently editing.. the director thought it was fine.. the producer (money bags) hated it.. I almost cried. I stepped back for a few days and now realize it pretty much stank... I think it captured what the director wanted, but what he wanted was kinda stinky so it got stinker when I touched it.. lol..
 
Back
Top