Why do commercial film clients Always try to underpay?

Nate North

Nate North

Warning: somewhat of a rant

One of the most aggravating things I face as a content professional is dealing with people who try to value film work around the $10 an hour range.

If you look at professional rates, 1000-2600 a day is pretty standard, and yet I get 60% of clients leaving angry if I won't sign up for 200 hours of work for $50 and a cookie.

Why are people willing to pay a high school dropout construction worker more than someone that went through 4 years of film school and invested 100k?

I made a commercial for a company that they put on national television once and charged them 1k. They told me they had paid $25,000 for the sign on the front of their building, which took 3 guys a day to put up, and then insinuated that I had overcharged them at a grand for a week.

Why do people look down on our profession? Why is it ok to pay any moron off the street 20k for unskilled labor, and unthinkable to pay a filmmaker scale wage?

Why do people see advertising as .1% of their budget?

I've never heard of someone asking a carpenter to work for 10% scale. Unthinkable.
 
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I have to say that on the flip side of the coin people can go through three years of uni (that's all we do over here for a BA) and then have a starting salary of less that £20k.

Anyone who's done a degree in journalism would bite your hand off for that sort of money straight out the course because freelancing, in any field, is tough and unrewarding work. I'm not sure why there's an assumption that filmmaking should be exempt from the current economic climate.

If I'm running a business which isn't make the desired returns then one of the first things I'd slash would be the advertising and corporate video production budget. If I can get someone to do it cheaper then that's great.

If someone posted on here about how delighted they were to get a really good, cheap deal on renting an apartment, we'd all be delighted. Obviously we're trained to be frustrated when it's out market that's getting eaten away at but that's the current climate- everyone's cutting corners and it's the freelancers who are going to suffer the most.
 
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Cracker Funk said:
A lot of people think that anyone can do this. They don't realize that what you do is both a skill, and an art, and that you are at the top of your game.
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My point exactly. In my twenties, I used to build ornate stairways in mansions. That was my specialty. I had a 4 year apprenticeship before I was allowed to run my own projects. It's a skill, an art, and if you plan to continue to make a living at it, you'd better be at the top of your game for every project. I became burned out and ended up getting a job at a TV station through a friend as a photographer. It paid less than half of what I used to make, but it was worth it. ;)
 
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SinEater said:
That's rather bone-headed thinking. The way you make more money is exposing your business to new clientele.
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You think it would be better to cut from the services that you're actually paid to provide?

We're not talking about not advertising, we're talking about advertising for cheaper. It's easy to say that if a business isn't working you should throw more money at advertising but that's not how it works.
 
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At some point, with all the competition, filmmakers lower their prices to stay competitive. With the advances in technology everybody thinks they are a filmmaker. Saturated market means lower bids. It's that way in every field. If you want to stay "high end" then you take less work and REALLY hope you get the big clients. If not... then you have to re-think your business techniques.
 
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After being serially underpaid at one of my jobs (sorry 3 jobs in a row) I checked the national statistics on salary for my jobs.

From government sources, the average director makes 110/yr

Creative Director 100/yr

Motion Graphics artist 60k/yr

cameraman 45k/yr

Plumber 35k/yr

yet when I work it's unlimited free overtime (demanded by every client) They wouldn't dream about keeping a plumber on a job for 2 extra weeks without additional pay, but for me it's expected
A lot of this centers around people wanting you to rebuild things until it fits the image in their head, and it's somehow your responsibility to do your job over and over without pay until they feel like it's correct.

I don't think that would be such a big problem if the clients had any idea what a correct piece of work looks like.

I'll make them an ad that looks like it should be on NBC, and they will demand that I keep working on it for no charge until the screen looks like the side of a nascar.
 
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CamVader said:
I'm going to do my best to ignore the superiority complex that got things started. Any schmuck off the street, huh? I really don't feel bad for people with this attitude. The stereotypes are swinging wildly in both directions; one by assumption and the other by example.
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Let me clarify. I was told my entire life that a better education got you higher pay. So I got a better education. Now the kid that picked his nose in my high school shop class gets a house and 3 cars while I'm forced to work 20 hour shifts with no overtime pay? Live month to month, with a broken down car because any dumb athlete is my financial superior? Explain to me why I shouldn't be pissed off. Union laborers exploit the system and get drastically overpaid, where is our union? I see groups of fat lazy mouth breathers and they all have health insurance, steady work, and no one would dream of asking them to work for less. Every single person I deal with tries to get a cut rate, AND forces unpaid overtime. If I don't do it, then I loose references and repeat business.

Superiority complex? People that study harder, invest more, work harder and excel at their professions are superior to those that don't. I don't see anything complex about that. Nor do I feel bad at all for saying a doctor or lab technician is superior to a garbage man. Society at large is behind me on this. That's why doctors get paid more than garbage men. I'm just asking why any of you that invested years of your life in difficult training shouldn't get paid more also. It feels like content workers unfairly get the short end of the stick.
 
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DeJager said:
At some point, with all the competition, filmmakers lower their prices to stay competitive. With the advances in technology everybody thinks they are a filmmaker. Saturated market means lower bids. It's that way in every field. If you want to stay "high end" then you take less work and REALLY hope you get the big clients. If not... then you have to re-think your business techniques.
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Yeah, I saw the same exact thing in webdesign. With all the experience and brains in the world, its at the point where its a minimum wage job.

I started making website "templates" though, if you will. Basically a cookie cutter fast food menu of website designs that could be done in just a couple hours and basically told people "choose from column A or B. Flat rate $500. If you want something different, $35 an hour." which is a steal btw. If they griped too much I told them to find someone cheaper and tell me how fun it was when all was said and done. Not like I could make a living doing that anyway, I had a day job and only did it for extra walking around money. After a while of that I made a new policy "I wont make you a website even if you beg me to." its been working out great ever since. lol
 
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Nate North said:
Let me clarify. I was told my entire life that a better education got you higher pay. So I got a better education. Now the kid that picked his nose in my high school shop class gets a house and 3 cars while I'm forced to work 20 hour shifts with no overtime pay? Live month to month, with a broken down car because any dumb athlete is my financial superior? Explain to me why I shouldn't be pissed off. Union laborers exploit the system and get drastically overpaid, where is our union? I see groups of fat lazy mouth breathers and they all have health insurance, steady work, and no one would dream of asking them to work for less. Every single person I deal with tries to get a cut rate, AND forces unpaid overtime. If I don't do it, then I loose references and repeat business.

Superiority complex? People that study harder, invest more, work harder and excel at their professions are superior to those that don't. I don't see anything complex about that. Nor do I feel bad at all for saying a doctor or lab technician is superior to a garbage man. Society at large is behind me on this. That's why doctors get paid more than garbage men. I'm just asking why any of you that invested years of your life in difficult training shouldn't get paid more also. It feels like content workers unfairly get the short end of the stick.
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There are MENSA candidates in the trades, they're not all nose picking rubes. I'm working on my second bachelors degree and that only provides opportunity, not a key to the city. A film degree is probably the riskiest degree to pursue if you're looking for security and automatic returns on your time investment and that has been common knowledge for a very long time.

Your sense of entitlement is discouraging. Did you have absolutely no idea what you were getting into? The people you are putting down will most likely have the same job and salary ratio for their lifetime. You have the opportunity to excel and go places if you are talented and dedicated and keep up the hard work like you have been. Risk/reward is a tenet of capitalism. Your stature in society does not change with a degree unless you do something with it, and you will as long as you stop thinking the world owes you something because you tried.

I'm telling you this, Nate, because most people get turned off when someone appears like they think they're better than others. They won't say anything, but this may hurt your business opportunities in the long run. You don't have to put others down to prop yourself up, it's a sign of something.

All that said, no hard feelings I hope.
 
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DangerDigital said:
well obviously thats the way things are, but I think the point of the post is why does it have to be that way.
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I have no problem with that and I think there's a lot of merit concerning the saturation with people who hang a shingle and say they're "in the business" and are driving wages down. That's a specific industry thing.

My objection was the implication of a wage caste system in a free country.
 
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Nate North said:
Let me clarify. I was told my entire life that a better education got you higher pay. So I got a better education. Now the kid that picked his nose in my high school shop class gets a house and 3 cars while I'm forced to work 20 hour shifts with no overtime pay? Live month to month, with a broken down car because any dumb athlete is my financial superior? Explain to me why I shouldn't be pissed off. Union laborers exploit the system and get drastically overpaid, where is our union? I see groups of fat lazy mouth breathers and they all have health insurance, steady work, and no one would dream of asking them to work for less. Every single person I deal with tries to get a cut rate, AND forces unpaid overtime. If I don't do it, then I loose references and repeat business.

Superiority complex? People that study harder, invest more, work harder and excel at their professions are superior to those that don't. I don't see anything complex about that. Nor do I feel bad at all for saying a doctor or lab technician is superior to a garbage man. Society at large is behind me on this. That's why doctors get paid more than garbage men. I'm just asking why any of you that invested years of your life in difficult training shouldn't get paid more also. It feels like content workers unfairly get the short end of the stick.
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Hey, my cousin's an athlete and he went to college. Aside from that, I worked as a laborer for warehouses; we may get less hours, usually 10, but some warehouse jobs are fast paced and physically demanding. And in all of my jobs overtime was mandatory. Furthermore, you are a superior filmmaker, an athlete is physically superior to you but you are not a superior being (or are you!?).

EDIT: I agree with CamVader, and his 2nd post is god-like. (2nd page, last post)
 
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CamVader said:
There are MENSA candidates in the trades, they're not all nose picking rubes. I'm working on my second bachelors degree and that only provides opportunity, not a key to the city. A film degree is probably the riskiest degree to pursue if you're looking for security and automatic returns on your time investment and that has been common knowledge for a very long time.

Your sense of entitlement is discouraging. Did you have absolutely no idea what you were getting into? The people you are putting down will most likely have the same job and salary ratio for their lifetime. You have the opportunity to excel and go places if you are talented and dedicated and keep up the hard work like you have been. Risk/reward is a tenet of capitalism. Your stature in society does not change with a degree unless you do something with it, and you will as long as you stop thinking the world owes you something because you tried.

I'm telling you this, Nate, because most people get turned off when someone appears like they think they're better than others. They won't say anything, but this may hurt your business opportunities in the long run. You don't have to put others down to prop yourself up, it's a sign of something.

All that said, no hard feelings I hope.
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Well Cam, you are right. I'm kind of extra irritated today because I got evicted from my home of 8 years by a woman who can't spell or compose sentences. I do understand that I've chosen a capitalistic route, and that it has both benefits and drawbacks. I guess I'm coming off as an elitist or something here, but if you saw the world from my view, where very untalented and average people give themselves huge amounts of money, and I have to fight tooth and nail to survive, these comments might come off as less acidic.

This isn't really about filmmaking, but yes, I was told if I worked harder and excelled at my job, I wouldn't end up with a rougher life than those that didn't. It's not about superiority at all, but I do feel entitled to benefit from my work, investment, and training the same way anyone with a degree in dentistry would. As far as job regularity goes, I get work, but it's always underpaid, sporatic, and without benefits. Also, they take advantage of me by paying me small amounts for work, then reselling that same work for 2-10x the cost. I had a guy take 75% of my pay for forwarding an email. If you think I have a superiority complex, you should hear the tones in the managers voices.
 
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Nate North said:
Well Cam, you are right. I'm kind of extra irritated today because I got evicted from my home of 8 years by a woman who can't spell or compose sentences. I do understand that I've chosen a capitalistic route, and that it has both benefits and drawbacks. I guess I'm coming off as an elitist or something here, but if you saw the world from my view, where very untalented and average people give themselves huge amounts of money, and I have to fight tooth and nail to survive, these comments might come off as less acidic.

This isn't really about filmmaking, but yes, I was told if I worked harder and excelled at my job, I wouldn't end up with a rougher life than those that didn't. It's not about superiority at all, but I do feel entitled to benefit from my work, investment, and training the same way anyone with a degree in dentistry would. As far as job regularity goes, I get work, but it's always underpaid, sporatic, and without benefits. Also, they take advantage of me by paying me small amounts for work, then reselling that same work for 2-10x the cost. I had a guy take 75% of my pay for forwarding an email. If you think I have a superiority complex, you should hear the tones in the managers voices.
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It sounds like you've had a terrible day and now is not the time to have this conversation. I had no way of knowing. Our situations are actually more similar than different, believe it or not.

Things will get better, they have to. Don't give up or get too discouraged, but it's reasonable to be pissed off.
 
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