Why are people in the filmmaking world like this???

K

kid_filmmaker

You know, maybe it's just because I'm new to the filmmaking world, I don't know but maybe someone can answer me this, why is it that if you see an ad requesting crew members or actors to work on a film on deferred pay, until the film receives financing for production and you know you're not interested in the ad, instead of just NOT responding, you respond with mean spirited, rude and cruel remarks like, "fuck off, no one works for free you idiot" or "no one wants to work on your shitty, garbage film"....Why do so-called "film crew professionals" feels it's necessary to reply with such things? If you're not interested in working on such a job because of deferred pay, why not just NOT respond? Why be mean to the person posting the ad?? Not everyone has the money to pay cast and crew BEFORE even seeking financing, unless you're Cameron, Scorsese or one of those higher ups in the industry. However some are just starting out filmmakers and while I understand there are some crew members who are truly expertise in their field and can NOT work for free, there are those who are just starting out in the filmmaking world who are looking for experience and would be glad to accept deferred pay positions because it gives them the chance to gain experience since they've just come out of film school or what have you.

But I've found a few - not all but a few people in the filmmaking be totally cruel as if working on a deferred pay basis until the film receives financing for PRODUCTION is a sinful, big no-no to ask, when I've read books (such as Filmmaking for Dummies) and seen websites from industry professionals suggesting that if you're working on a low budget or no budget film and you're looking for cast and crew, you CAN ask for them to work on a deferred pay basis and they give sites as to where to go look for these types of people...So why do people act like you've made some BIG no-no by stating the position is on a deferred pay basis??

I just thought I'd point that out because I'll share this, a lot of the filmmakers that these crew members are mean and rude to - when that same filmmaker makes it big and those crew members go applying to be apart of that filmmaker's production - the filmmaker will remember that crew member's behavior and REJECT them because first impressions are everything and most people NEVER forget rudeness and disrespect in the filmmaking world.....or so I have been told, I mean I could be wrong....


Just wanted to share and state that...
 
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Don't forget this is the Internet. People act more high and mighty than they actually are, chances are the people who are being rude to you have never worked on set in their life Or they tried the same thing as you and got the same response from people.

Personally I have worked for free on a high number of films, granted those are master thesis films that my school pushes out often haha.

Also a side note for you, in the professional world the director doesn't pay anyone. The money man of a film is the Producer. If there is a project that a director is passionate about they would go seek out a producer, not a crew. Plus in pre-production there is only a handful of positions you need, all of which you can do yourself.
 
Just remember that the ones who do that are frustrated people who probably don't get hired and they blame you, while probably the fault is theirs: not good enough, not nice to work with, too arrogant to make the miles to get there or whatever reason.
Or they just had a bad day.

Don't worry.
Press Delete and it's gone.

If they use real names: note them.
Just in case the time comes you can pay people and they apply :P
(It's up to you how you handle it: you can show them mercy)

It is not a filmmaker's thing, it's a human thing.
 
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I agree with Sky and Walter. People are very brave sitting behind a keyboard. I got one once on an ad offering $75/day for a rookie sound recordist with minimal gear. Not only did they mock the rate, but called me unprofessional for saying I wanted to meet with/interview any applicants before actually hiring them.

Anyway, there are still people out there willing to work for meals and experience. So don't be discouraged from posting ads, and just ignore the bitter keyboard warriors.
 
I can only echo what others have said. I have worked for free many times on no-budget/low-budget films and have never had an issue. From working for free, I have met a lot of great people and have learned a ton. As my career grows and these other people's careers grow we will be able to get to the point where we can pay. Until then, I wouldn't trade some of the experiences, stories, or new friends for anything. That being said, if someone is a DP and they have expensive equipment and need to make a living with it-- I can see why they get angry. But they wouldn't be who you'd be targeting at that point in your career.

There are a lot of angry, bitter, unfriendly people in film. Hell, some of them post on this forum from time to time. Ignore them. Create a community of people who want to pull you up, not push you down.
 
Actually, some of the actors and crewmembers I hire I met during unpaid fun projects. They helped me out or I helped them out.
I have a simple rule: if it is a commercial thing (like a corporate video) where I get paid for, everyone gets paid. If it is narrative stuff to hone everyone's skills: I can't really afford to hire anyone. I'll ask my friends and partners first and will post an ad to fill in the blanks.

I once got a very angry reply full of strong language. I don't remember what it said, but it sounded rude, but it left an unintended opening for a smart ass reply ( <- lot's of pun intended as you will see).
I politely replied that, although I have no problems with people being gay, I wasn't interested in sex with him.
Strangely enough he never replied, hahaha.
 
Why do so-called "film crew professionals" feels it's necessary to reply with such things?
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There are multiple reasons why someone could react. You may just be catching someone having a bad day. It could be as simple as that. It could also be that in your inexperience you chose a particular wording that could offend people.

I always find deferred pay to be a suckers game, though probably for a different reason than you believe. Deferred pay is where those who do the work take all the risk, but gain none of the potential upside. In other words, the best case scenario is you get paid what measly rate is offered. Don't take this the wrong way, but at least have the decency to offer the potential worker points instead of/on top of the deferred pay.

when that same filmmaker makes it big and those crew members go applying to be apart of that filmmaker's production
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I'm going to suggest that you be the bigger person and don't do that. Resist the temptation. When the time comes, you hire the best person for the job. The person who is going to increase the success of your film the best. Often it's not going to be that person, but if they do happen to be the best choice, swallow your pride and hire them. For the good of your career.
 
Sweetie said:
Don't take this the wrong way, but at least have the decency to offer the potential worker points instead of/on top of the deferred pay.
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Sweetie, can you elaborate a bit? Perhaps it's an Australian film industry thing with "points" but I have not come across that terminology.

Do you mean paying them with pointers to improve their filmmaking? Or is that an Australian union thing?
 
Points are percent. In this case a percent of the profit, if there ever is one.
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Yep. Either profit share percentage (share) or ownership, usually the later.

can you elaborate a bit?
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I suspect you're happy with the answer, but here's a chance to elaborate a little anyway ;)

Why is points fair and a deferral not fair? If you're asking someone to work for no wages and take part of the risk of ruin (where you get no return, essentially losing your investment), you're essentially asking them to be an investor. Being an investor (even if it's not a financial investor) means they should expect to be a partial owner, right?

The point is rather moot when you're talking a short film as they rarely have much commercial value.

I do admit, I haven't heard of anyone asking a line producer to work for deferred pay. I've come across the paid option and I've also come across the agreement set with points and deferred development fee + first right of refusal on the paid Production Manager position and/or Associate Producer job if the production goes ahead. I've even heard of the production company writing this up with the agreement of getting the work when/if finance comes into place.

Some of this is still just theory to me, so take all that with a grain of salt.
 
The main reason has already beed answered: it's the internet and people
are “braver” and ruder when hiding anonymously.

Two things you mention are what turns me off from most of the notices for
free work.

Number one: the misuse and misunderstanding of “deferred” pay. Ask me
to work for free and I respect you. Dangle a carrot and promises and I lose
respect. Technically deferred pay means a portion of the wages will be paid
later and a payment date is agreed upon. Promising to pay IF there is money
to do so someday is not deferred pay. The harsh reality is almost no movie
made with the cast and crew getting “deferred” pay or points will ever make
anything. “Professionals” know that.

Number two: When they make it big... No director or producer has ever hired
the entire crew who worked on their first movie after they made it big. Other
than the occasional director/DP relationship I can't find an example of a
director hiring even one crew member when they made it big. Quick, without
looking it up - name the lead actor in George Lucas's student film and how
many times he was hired for his movies after he made it big. Quick, without
looking it up – how many crew members who worked for free on his first film
worked on his first studio film? How many actors or crew members who
worked for on James Cameron's first film did he hire when he made it big?
Crew members looking for a gig know all this – many director/producers do
not. It doesn't excuse bad behavior but it does explain it. As Dready points
out even paying a very low wage doesn't stop people from acting like jerks.

I often get the impression from new filmmaker looking for crew for free that
they feel THEY are the one doing ME a favor by allowing me to work for free
on their movie. I am impressed by ads that don't dangle a carrot and promise
me great things in the future. I will consider working for free on a movie when
I feel my contribution is valued. But even changing the wording of the ad won't
keep some people from action like jerks.
 
Well thank you to all who answered, it helped me feel a little bit better about the situation, like I said, I understand there are some crew members and cast members who are so expertise, that they are just too good to work for deferred pay, and that I respect and I understand but just because that's the case, doesn't mean you have to belittle and ridicule and insult the person making the ad because of it....but despite that, I digress. Thank you to all who replied :)
 
kid_filmmaker said:
I understand there are some crew members and cast members who are so expertise, that they are just too good to work for deferred pay,
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Try not to think of it that way. It's rare that people think they are
"too good"; it's that some people believe they should be paid to work.
I agree with you that there is no excuse to belittle a filmmaker asking
people to work for free. I think there is no need to think that people
who want to be paid feel they are "too good" to work for free. Respect
is a two way street.
 
There is a theme in film making where we see one of the assistants bring the big man his coffee, who promptly spits it out and yells abuse at the young guy for daring to bring him that crap when he expressly ordered a cafe blah blah blah kind of coffee....
That is not because the guy is an artistic genius. It's not because he is a big man that deserves respect...It's because the guys a class A Ass-hole. Sure if you work for that guy you should possibly just take that crap if you value that role, but none of us work for anyone else here. If someone is being a douche, I am definitely going to give them as much crap as I can in return.
 
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Firstly.... let me agree that NO response should be given by those who don't want to do it. Receiving hateful emails is a result of failed humanity.... not film culture.

But on the other hand.... Most with experience in making films know that "deferred pay" is at best a pipe dream and often a malicious attempt by producer/directors to leverage free labor for THEIR film. It's a tactic used to trick crew.... and there is resentment for it. Deferred contracts NEVER pay. I could give personal examples of getting screwed on deferred terms... but I won't, because I'm not hiding my identity here.

I agree with previous posts. I would rather hear "work for free" than "deferred pay" or "credit" or "we're going to lots of festivals" or etc. There is nothing more demeaning than a producer who won't pay for gear and labor in post but talks about the need for craft services on set.... or renting a RED Epic or buying XYZ.

So.... Long story short. You're probably an honest person who really believes deferred pay can work. I don't doubt that. But.... the industry is filled with selfish and manipulative filmmakers for whom deferred pay is just another card played to benefit themselves. Thousands of people have been burned by that trick.... and a small percentage of those read your ad and wanted revenge.

Best of luck. My advice.... making a film is like owning a business. Would you ask the construction crew, waitress, and cooks to work for free, just until the place made enough money to recoup all your expenses for starting the restaurant?
 
I will agree with Joe's statement that saying 'no pay' will be better accepted than 'deferred pay'. Tell them you will feed them and they get a copy of the finished project. You might not get any better reaction, but at least you are not setting an expectation of something more.
 
I understand there are some crew members and cast members who are so expertise, that they are just too good to work for deferred pay
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Here's a perspective thing. A Line Producer works on a production (often as a production manager). Mon to Fri 12+ hour shifts, plugging in 62+ hours that week, bringing home the bread for his family. Those who are at the top of their job are in demand and they're working.

Do you think it's fair to say they're too good to work for deferred, when it could simply be they prefer to spend their spare time with their family and friends. The prospect of working for you, doing the 12+ hour shifts on their days off for some random stranger may not exactly be appealing. As rik said, respect is a two way street. How you said is comes across as passive aggressive (not sure if I have the right words).

Most people are happy to volunteer their time to those they have a positive personal connection with, time permitting of course. Have you invested the time networking and building those personal connections to be able to ask friends to come together to work on your project?

I agree with you that there is no excuse to belittle a filmmaker asking people to work for free.
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Agreed, but alas, if we let the action of others make us unhappy, it'll be hard to live a happy life.
 
directorik said:
Try not to think of it that way. It's rare that people think they are
"too good"; it's that some people believe they should be paid to work.
I agree with you that there is no excuse to belittle a filmmaker asking
people to work for free. I think there is no need to think that people
who want to be paid feel they are "too good" to work for free. Respect
is a two way street.
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Well when I said "they are too good", I didn't mean it in an insulting way. I mean like some crew members, you see their resume and you know they're like really experienced and you know, there's no way they're going to accept deferred pay basis and when they do say no to deferred pay, you understand because from looking at their resume and their extensive experience, you can understand why.
 
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