What Creates Production Value?

[cameronchapman]

I have a vague idea of what goes into production value (talent, cinematography, editing, SOUND, etc.), but not really any concrete ideas as to how to improve production value, short of spending millions of dollars (which I would gladly spend if someone wants to give them to me).

I'm planning to film a drama feature next fall (and will hopefully be shooting a handful of shorts and possibly a web series between now and then), and want to maximize production value to increase my chances of getting distribution/getting into festivals/not embarrassing myself .

So, going on the basis that this is a drama film without any complex sets, no special effects, etc., what would you do to increase the production value? What gives you the most bang for your buck? What's the least effective thing to spend your limited funds on?

Let's also assume that the budget for this is likely going to be under $50,000, though possibly could go as high as $100,000. And let's also assume that I'm not opposed to begging if that will get things done/get me things for free.

 

[cameronchapman]

I was wondering, what is the cheapest way to go about filling up a 'white wall'? What should I look for to fill it up with so I don't get sued later?

thanks

You can use pretty much anything that was created prior to 1923 without needing permission. Also, creative commons stuff can be used as long as you adhere to the license (just get them printed at walmart or wherever). Check with local artists, too.

 

[Alcove Audio]

What creates production value? The desire to create production value!

This sounds rather trite and obvious, but 99.99% of filmmakers do not want to go the extra hundred boring steps to do the necessary things to create production value. Real production values are a combination of all of the things that have been delineated in this thread. As an example, you really have to dress the set. The knick-knacks and/or other items and how they are arranged can tell volumes about the character, as does the furniture and whatever artwork is on the walls, be it graffiti or an original Picasso. That 15 second pan across the room to the character can give the audience numerous insights into the character before they ever see him/her. All of these myriad details need to be lit just right so these details are subtly brought to the attention of the audience.

This attention to detail has to apply to every single aspect of the project. I'm completely focused on sound; that's my job, that's what I do. Many of you have wished to have me work on your film. But you also need someone of my caliber - or better - dressing your set, lighting your set, doing your actors hair and makeup, doing wardrobe, maintaining video and audio logs, managing security, keeping your cast and crew happy (food & drink, a place to relax, sanitation, etc.)... the list goes on and on. Seriously, how many of you really sit through the end credits of a film? It takes hundreds of people to make a film at the Big Budget level. To do a proper job at the indie level takes at least a couple of dozen - not including the cast and extras.

 

[Kholi]

I was wondering, what is the cheapest way to go about filling up a 'white wall'? What should I look for to fill it up with so I don't get sued later?

thanks

If you get stuck in a situation like that, there are a few things you can do:

1. Avoid shooting more than one or two wides and keep everything down to medium's and two's.
2. Picture frames for living rooms, posters and/or similar for bedrooms.
3. Rearrange furniture to accommodate
4. Shoot "deep", or find the deepest point in the room (corner to corner maybe), block for that, and shoot that way to create the illusion of a larger space, which should draw less attention to the background.
5. Make everything bright and happy (this depends on the content)

This is exactly what I was thinking. Time for Kholi to put on the tutor hat.

xD Haha. I have no idea what I'd be able to tutor that you guys n'gals can't learn already from the infobutts and watching other movies.

Maybe it's time to start a blog, though...

 

[trueindie]

What creates production value? The desire to create production value!

This sounds rather trite and obvious, but 99.99% of filmmakers do not want to go the extra hundred boring steps to do the necessary things to create production value. Real production values are a combination of all of the things that have been delineated in this thread. As an example, you really have to dress the set. The knick-knacks and/or other items and how they are arranged can tell volumes about the character, as does the furniture and whatever artwork is on the walls, be it graffiti or an original Picasso. That 15 second pan across the room to the character can give the audience numerous insights into the character before they ever see him/her. All of these myriad details need to be lit just right so these details are subtly brought to the attention of the audience.

This attention to detail has to apply to every single aspect of the project. I'm completely focused on sound; that's my job, that's what I do. Many of you have wished to have me work on your film. But you also need someone of my caliber - or better - dressing your set, lighting your set, doing your actors hair and makeup, doing wardrobe, maintaining video and audio logs, managing security, keeping your cast and crew happy (food & drink, a place to relax, sanitation, etc.)... the list goes on and on. Seriously, how many of you really sit through the end credits of a film? It takes hundreds of people to make a film at the Big Budget level. To do a proper job at the indie level takes at least a couple of dozen - not including the cast and extras.

So Alcove, or any other sound guy, what would you think is a proper budget for an audio guy like yourself to work on a 10 day shoot? Actually I'm not even thinking a 'proper' budget, but a 'reasonable' one. Something that a good audio guy would be okay with.

Also, what are the services that a good audio guy/gal provides?

Maybe this is a wrong question to ask in a public forum. Should I pm? This is only a half serious question in the sense that I'm not about to pay anybody right now. But I need to have an idea when I create my next budget.

This is such a great thread. learning a lot already.

 

[Pete]

@Pete
Those two samples I found interesting, the first, Apricot, is well crafted but mind numbingly dull. Nothing is happening, it's not cinema, it's radio.
The second, I preferred. By far. Right out of the gate, again, two people sitting but one has a bullet hole in him. My head was off to the races. What happened? What will happen? It's static, but there's a huge chunk of visual information that doesn't have to be talked about "Look here, I'm shot".

I suppose we'll have to disagree on the merits of those short films (I found them both to be captivating), but what I was really pointing out was the production value. The story can benefit from, but is different than, the production value.

P.S. You may want to stick around for the end of the second video -- the sound design of the girl's scream is nothing short of horrifying (in a good way).

 

[brianluce]

The story can benefit from, but is different than, the production value.

P.S. You may want to stick around for the end of the second video -- the sound design of the girl's scream is nothing short of horrifying (in a good way).

Yap, I veered OT. The contrast was just so striking, had to say something.

 

[Scoopicman]

The story can benefit from, but is different than, the production value.

Not if you write the story based on production value available to you - locations (museum, buildings, landmarks, jails), props (friends with access to boats, motorhomes, sports cars, a tank, a friend's artwork that can be used with permission), personnel (soldiers, cops, Air Soft squads).

You can't always force production value to back up your story, but you can always adapt your story to accomodate what is available. At this budget level, you should write based on your resources. You don't write for sunny days when you are shooting in a place that constantly rains.

 

[cameronchapman]

Not if you write the story based on production value available to you - locations (museum, buildings, landmarks, jails), props (friends with access to boats, motorhomes, sports cars, a tank, a friend's artwork that can be used with permission), personnel (soldiers, cops, Air Soft squads).

You can't always force production value to back up your story, but you can always adapt your story to accomodate what is available. At this budget level, you should write based on your resources. You don't write for sunny days when you are shooting in a place that constantly rains.

Excellent advice. I definitely take into account the resources I have available to me when writing. In this particular script, there are two scenes that take place in a bar. I have a particular bar in mind, and a friend of a friend manages the place, and if that one isn't available, I have another friend who owns a bar that I could probably use. And if that still isn't available, I know another guy who's sister owns a bar. The other big location is a farmhouse. There are tons of farmhouses around here, and it could always be rewritten to take place in any kind of house if I couldn't get access to a farmhouse.

 

[brianluce]

Excellent advice. I definitely take into account the resources I have available to me when writing. In this particular script, there are two scenes that take place in a bar. I have a particular bar in mind, and a friend of a friend manages the place, and if that one isn't available, I have another friend who owns a bar that I could probably use. And if that still isn't available, I know another guy who's sister owns a bar. The other big location is a farmhouse. There are tons of farmhouses around here, and it could always be rewritten to take place in any kind of house if I couldn't get access to a farmhouse.

One school of thought for micro budget filmmaking, and I agree with it, is find a really cool location. First. Then write a story around it.

 

[cameronchapman]

One school of thought for micro budget filmmaking, and I agree with it, is find a really cool location. First. Then write a story around it.

I'm doing that for another short and/or web series. There's an abandoned Cold War era radar base not far from me and I really, really want to get permission to shoot something up there (it's open to hikers and such).

 

[Alcove Audio]

Actually I'm not even thinking a 'proper' budget, but a 'reasonable' one. Something that a good audio guy would be okay with. Also, what are the services that a good audio guy/gal provides?

Define "proper" and "reasonable." You get what you pay for. You start with your budget and then have to answer a whole lot of questions. How serious are you about getting great sound? How big is the rest of your crew? How big is your cast? What are your objectives?

At the "Hollywood" big-budget level you are going to have a production sound mixer, a boom-op and an audio assistant. They will have the ability to:

-Record eight or more audio tracks plus a mix/reference track
-Send the mix/reference track to the director, DP and several others (headphones for all)
-Have an extensive mic locker
-Wire up six or more people with wireless lavs
-Supply on-set comms (walkie-talkies, bullhorns, etc.)
-A few dozen other things that I can't remember and you would never think of

The mic locker alone can cost $10k or $20k, the sound cart at least $50k. The PSM will have years of experience behind him as will the boom-op, and the audio assistant (who wants to be a PSM or boom-op) will have been hand selected out of dozens who wanted the job. The best of them will all work at two or three times union scale, and the rental of the gear will be negotiated with the production company.

Below that level you find someone who fits into your budget. If you have a budget of a couple of million you'll find a very qualified two man crew (who may have an intern) with a modest but very nice kit that you will rent. A PSM will make $40/hr and the boom-op $25/hr for 10 hours, time and a half for overtime up to twelve hours, double after that. They'll have a nice selection of mics, can probably lav up two to four people and record two or four tracks.

Of course you can always find people who work for less. There are quite a few one-man mixer/boom-ops who do a very nice job for $250 a day, and up-and-comers who will work for expenses and a small stipend. They'll have entry level professional equipment.


Fo audio post you can hire a supervising sound editor and/or sound designer at places like Skywalker Sound - with a half dozen sound editors, a dialog editor, an ADR mixer, a Foley team and a tech team plus the rerecording mixer(s) at a theatre-sized mixing/dubbing stage - that will cost you a five or so million dollars all the way down to one-man shops like me. Once again, it comes down to your budget. Do you think that $25 an hour for an experienced sound editor/mixer with a small but nicely equipped audio post facility is reasonable? Of course it is, but when a project needs at least 500 hours worth of work $12,500 makes most indie types gasp at the "exorbitant" expense.


Everyone will have their own definition of "reasonable".

 

[GuerrillaAngel]

You get what you pay for.

One can learn to do sound and get great results for practically nothing.

 

[trueindie]

Define "proper" and "reasonable."

Everyone will have their own definition of "reasonable".

I hear ya. Let's forget that I ever mentioned 'proper' or 'reasonable'.

I'm budgeting a feature. I think between me and the people I know we have all the video and lighting equipment we need. I was thinking of shooting for about 10 days. It all happens in one spot anyway, so maybe even less than that, but let's just say 10 days. I'm budgeting 2k for food for everybody (there'll be about 12 people on set every day. I was going to budget 4k for sound. and 1.5k for incidental expenses.

Now this is very, very, very low budget, but something I can afford. Now am I off my rocker when I think 4k? I don't need hollywood sound. But I need better sound than what I'm used to. Actually, all I need is a 'guarantee' that somebody will make sure that the sound is there.

am I being unreasonable here? I don't need a super fantastic sound guy. I just need somebody, anybody, who is better than myself and the people I know. Am I crazy or should I just stop thinking about making films?

I'm joking around of course. But I really need to be able to get a sound guy for 4 to 5k for 10 days or less, and I really want to know what such a person can do for me.

best,
aveek

 

[M1chae1]

Improving production value is all about learning and bettering each aspect of production--some of the traits you listed. You either grow and learn together...get a rising star...or find an already season veteran.

One thing I think is important is to not compare indie films with indie films. You must compare them with the greats. And I'm not talking about obvious budgetary perks that big films excel in, because that's the icing and flare...I'm talking about the basics...thecomposition of a shot. The ease of a simple jib move or an extremely slow dolly. The quality of sound...the mixing...the design...the soundtrack. The acting. The editing. The title cards. The credits. All of it. There has to be obvious preparation, passion, and lots of TLC. It all has to be there not in a 'just get by' attitude. It has to be done right. And if you do it right, you will have solid results even without the expensive equipment and working industry professionals.

You can skimp on the budget, but do not skimp on the process.

Cheers and good luck.

 

[Alcove Audio]

I just need somebody, anybody, who is better than myself and the people I know.

you can always find people who work for less. There are quite a few one-man mixer/boom-ops who do a very nice job for $250 a day, and up-and-comers who will work for expenses and a small stipend. They'll have entry level professional equipment.

As I said on my post, they're out there. At $250/day that's $2,500 (plus overtime) for a 10 day shoot.

 

[Alcove Audio]

One can learn to do sound and get great results for practically nothing.

Yes, you can. Are you going to swing the boom and handle the camera all by yourself?

 

[trueindie]

As I said on my post, they're out there. At $250/day that's $2,500 (plus overtime) for a 10 day shoot.

Right. Sorry. I got carried away with the 10k and 20k and 50k numbers. The lower numbers failed to register.

but yes, I think I have hope. Thanks.

 

[GuerrillaAngel]

Yes, you can. Are you going to swing the boom and handle the camera all by yourself?

You betcha. Press record, grab the boom pole and yell action! Get at one clean dialogue track for the entire scene. All the other takes can be edited in and around it. If you make yourself an editing wiz, you can fool EVERYBODY, including audiophiles!

 

[trueindie]

You betcha. Press record, grab the boom pole and yell action! Get at one clean dialogue track for the entire scene. All the other takes can be edited in and around it. If you make yourself an editing wiz, you can fool EVERYBODY, including audiophiles!

Wow. I don't believe I've ever heard another person make filmmaking sound so easy. Do you have any examples of a short or a clip of how you did all this by yourself?

 

[rayw]

If you make yourself an editing wiz, you can fool EVERYBODY, including audiophiles!

I feel foolish.

Okay... I'm feeling something.
I think I just vurped a little.
I might be preggers.

Wow. I don't believe I've ever heard another person make filmmaking sound so easy. Do you have any examples of a short or a clip of how you did all this by yourself?

I think GA is beeing faseeshuh... fuhsheeshu... faseezus... Aw, screwwit. She's pullin'our leg.