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VFX/CC Workflow

S

Scotty Fox

Hi all,

I posted recently on something similar but now I have a couple possible avenues for the post work depending on who I end up going with (VFX/CC people)

Here are the two options and how I'm understanding is the best workflow for each. Please critique anything you see being wrong!

VFX/CC (with AE)

PrPro offline edit > export EDL > Import EDL into REDCineX > Relink files with r3d files > export 2K/4K clips as necessary as .DPX >

hand off to VFX/CC artist so they do their work > they export .DPX finished product > I import back into PrPro for final touches, syncing with audio > Final 2K master export.

VFX/CC (with AE then Resolve)

Virtually the same process except they'd be using Resolve instead of AE. But they'd also use .DPX files and give me a .DPX in return.


So that's how I'm seeing it right now. The reason for the 2K and 4K clips are because I've punched in quite a bit on some clips to reframe. So to keep the 2K resolution and not have a zoom in of 30-40% on some shots, I'll need to use the 4K in those spots. 2K for everything else I didn't punch in on.

I'm using CS5.5 right now, but seem to be having the problem of importing the EDL into REDCineX. I can't seem to relink it to the files I want. Not sure why, but the correct files are grayed out and I can't click on them even though they have the same name. I'm probably doing something wrong.

The other option I was thinking of is if the EDL isn't the way to go, I could media manage the project, creating a trimmed and cleaned project for the offline edit, then export that as an XML, and use that in place of the EDL. Let me know if I'm way off in the deep end now. But thought that might be an easy way of letting Premiere trim my clips to what I'm actually using, instead of hoping an EDL list gets it right. Plus an XML export from the main project seems to be including EVERYTHING even if I'm not using it in the sequence.

I also wasn't sure if I should be upgrading to CS6 or CC... Are there big advancements in the exporting EDL/XML and that workflow, or is it all the same between CC and CS5.5?

Thanks everybody.
 
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No it's Creative Cloud.

I'll have to go back and look at the settings, but I was choosing max bit depth for export. Unlike AE and REDCineX the export settings for DPX seem to be a bit different in terms of choosing those options.

As far as the sliders go, they're virtually the same going out of PrPro and AE. So something else needs to be going on somewhere.
 
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I could be that there are color values (within premiere) that are above 10bit, which are being clipped on export at it's highest (10bit) setting. But AE is able to export at a higher bit depth, thus no clipping.


Maybe this will help..
https://www.newschoolers.com/ns/forums/readthread/thread_id/700843/

1st comment said:
I ran into the black clipping issue a few months ago, and was able to eliminate it by turning off "use maximum render quality" and "render at maximum bit depth" in the export settings box. Use maximum render quality only helps preserve quality while scaling frame resolution during export, and Render at maximum bit depth only applies to 32 bit effects (and presumably you're not scaling or exporting with any effects for color, so you don't need either of these options).
Click to expand...

I wonder if it's clipping to broadcast safe on export?
 
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Seems to me, if your source footage is 4K, and you still have VFX to be done, you might be best to change the project to 4K so you can avoid resizing when you relink the 4K clips. Preserve as much data for VFX and color as possible.
 
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I've thought about that, and let me know if my understanding is wrong below.

But when I relink, I'm not scaling to fit, I'm manually shrinking the image to say 51% to fit into the 2K timeline. Other shots that I've rescaled, I'm adjusting accordingly resizing the 4K image to fit with what I have in mind, SAY 71% in some cases, also in the 2K timeline.

Now when I export, yes was going to export at 2K. But isn't the pixel information of the 4K file still there? Just now in the 2K space? Might be a laughable presumption but thought I'd throw it out there.

The second and bigger reason I preferred to go to 2K is size. DPX are already huge, and sending out 4K instead of 2K would greatly increase that load. But then I guess I could just pass along the .r3d files, let the VFX work be done, but then he'd have to export DPX, and then he'd be the one resizing. Just thinking out loud. Or if he didn't resize, the colorist would be now handling the 4K files (but I was under the impression colorists prefer 2K almost always).

In any event if the 4k file did go all the way through I'm assuming I could get the 4K dpx files back and at that point rescale.
 
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10-bit will be fine for your colour, I can't advise too much in regards to VFX. If you're really worried about potential loss of information, by all means export through AE.

I'm not too familiar with PrPro, but I know when exporting an AAF from Avid, you can consolidate and transcode media - so that only the clips that are used in the timeline will be present in the export folder, and only the files that have effects/re-framing applied need to be transcoded in order to 'bake-in' those effects.

Alternately, you could provide your colourist with an XML/EDL, then apply any speed changes and re-framing once the coloured files land back at your desk?

Seems like a much more straightforward and easier workflow.
 
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Scotty Fox said:
Now when I export, yes was going to export at 2K. But isn't the pixel information of the 4K file still there? Just now in the 2K space? Might be a laughable presumption but thought I'd throw it out there.
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In an XML/EDL export, where the colourist would be working with the original files, all the information would still be retained. As you're exporting a DPX, only the information within the export (i.e. 2k resolution at x-bit depth) will be retained. If your source files are 6k 16-bit, and you export a 2k 10-bit DPX, you'll only be getting a 10-bit 2k export, despite the fact that files may be 're-sized'.

Any benefit from re-sizing a 4k image to 2k will have already been had. The image may indeed look better than if you had captured in 2k, but there's no extra pixel information in the export.

... (I was under the impression colorists prefer 2K almost always).
Click to expand...

Your colourist should be able to work with any resolution you provide. 2K is what the majority of films are mastered at these days for DCP, though there are many moving to 4k. That might be what you're thinking of.
 
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Alternately, you could provide your colourist with an XML/EDL, then apply any speed changes and re-framing once the coloured files land back at your desk?

Seems like a much more straightforward and easier workflow.
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I'm not too sure, as I have quite a few speed changes in the offline edit and rescaling that I would have to take off and reapply later. Honestly, if I could bake these in and not have to worry about it , that would be much easier. That way that part is completed and it's a matter of sending dpx to vfx, then dpx to colorist, then dpx back to me for final assembly.

I mean if that's a disastrous approach, I could remove all speed changes and scaling and send out r3d's, or only bake in those needed as mentioned in the Avid workflow example.

Or do a first light on the footage so most of it is in a good place for CC, then proceed with the baking in.

Gotcha Jax for the 2K resizing thing. Makes sense.

Your colourist should be able to work with any resolution you provide. 2K is what the majority of films are mastered at these days for DCP, though there are many moving to 4k. That might be what you're thinking of.
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The colorists I've spoken to actually preferred 2K. Probably because of time. As I have a fixed budget, rendering time/conforming is all coming into play. Realistically I don't know how much extra time rendering out 4K files would be, but most have mentioned this to be a possible issue.
 
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Ahhh, you guys have me thinking now!!!!

So here's what it comes down to and you can give me your opinions.

If there's no really major visual benefit to keeping these files 4K through the process, I'd go with 2K. But if there really is a benefit, then I can take off the speed changes and export an XML to a normal speed sequence for the entire short and VFX stringout. I'd send that out in 4K .r3d attached to the XML, then get back 4K dpx files or Prores 4444? and resize in Premiere, reapply the speed and render out my master.

Opinions????
 
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Scotty Fox said:
Or do a first light on the footage so most of it is in a good place for CC, then proceed with the baking in.
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If you're really looking for the most manouverability in the grade, export using redlogfilm. Export a redcolor3 version of the VFX shots to be sent off to VFX.

The colorists I've spoken to actually preferred 2K. Probably because of time. As I have a fixed budget, rendering time/conforming is all coming into play. Realistically I don't know how much extra time rendering out 4K files would be, but most have mentioned this to be a possible issue.
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Well yeah, there's the issue of time ;)
 
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Scotty Fox said:
If there's no really major visual benefit to keeping these files 4K through the process, I'd go with 2K. But if there really is a benefit, then I can take off the speed changes and export an XML to a normal speed sequence for the entire short and VFX stringout. I'd send that out in 4K .r3d attached to the XML, then get back 4K dpx files or Prores 4444? and resize in Premiere, reapply the speed and render out my master.
Click to expand...

There's a benefit for VFX, though you'd need to discuss with your VFX artist(s) as to their thoughts on it. There's no particular benefit for the colour process.

I don't know how many VFX shots there are, but potentially you could export only the VFX shots in 4k, and then assemble it all later.

FWIW, ProRes 4444 supports 12-bit and is around half the size of DPX. Your colourist (and VFX artist(s)) shouldn't have much issue using it. Unless they've already advised you against ProRes, consider having a chat to them about using it. I've shot entire films on Alexa at 2k 4444 ProRes (and honestly, even 422(HQ) 10-bit) and never had a colourist request the ProRes files be transcoded to DPXs.
 
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There's a benefit for VFX, though you'd need to discuss with your VFX artist(s) as to their thoughts on it. There's no particular benefit for the colour process.

I don't know how many VFX shots there are, but potentially you could export only the VFX shots in 4k, and then assemble it all later.
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The VFX artist preferred the r3d files... so 4K. I guess I could do this as long as it's okay with the colorist. I'll have to check how much extra time this will take, as there's a good amount of VFX shots. 50 - 60. If they're both okay with it, then I'll ask him to export 4K DPX files as he's unable to export Prores4444. (using Nuke so I assume that's why, or maybe a PC thing).

So then I could give the 4K vfx dpx files to the colorist. And I could have already given him the 2K rescaled and speed changed (baked in Prores4444) files, and he could finish the vfx shots.

Then he could export all at prores4444, then I could bring in 4K vfx shots and 2K non vfx shots all at prores, assemble and export at 4444 or 422(HQ).

Does exporting prores4444 3 times diminish the quality in regards to what your eye can pick up?

Thanks Jax.
 
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I don't know how many VFX shots there are, but potentially you could export only the VFX shots in 4k, and then assemble it all later.
Click to expand...

Regarding speed change Jax. I could export 4K dpx to VFX artist. I know I'm still losing info, but I'd keep the speed changes and not have to take all those off. And you still get the higher res file.

R3D is still probably better though for VFX I would imagine.
 
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Scotty Fox said:
he's unable to export Prores4444. (using Nuke so I assume that's why, or maybe a PC thing).
Click to expand...

PC thing, not a Nuke thing. Can't encode to prores (easily) on a PC. It is possible, but not natively in any app, and the ability to do so with anything other than ffmpeg is not free.

He could always do image sequences too, you know just to give you more stuff to think about.. :lol:
 
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Other than maybe budgetary reasons, is there a reason you're doing speed changes in the NLE, vs having the VFX guy do it -- especially if the time altered clips are also vfx clips
 
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So the VFX guy wants .r3ds... So you don't need to export anything. So send through the VFX shots to the VFX artist, he sends you back .dpx files. Put them into your timeline, rescale (if necessary) then export te whole thing and shoot it to your colourist.

As Will mentions, the VFX guy is perfectly capable of doing speed changes, and will probably help with the overal VFX.
 
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