Unhappy purchases

[sfoster]

I got two pieces of equipment in the mail and it's been disappointing with both of them.

The first is this tascam dr-100, I'm less than a foot away from it and it barely picks up my voice at all unless it's on medium gain. Is that usual? What is low gain for if it can't hear anything.

#2 someone had suggested a 24mm ef-s lens as a cheap, usable wide angle lens. But I tried this out and when I am focusing manually with my hand it is still making mechanical noises. I expected that with autofocus but it threw me off with the manual stuff.

$500 and I'm not confident about either of them.

Before that I bought an external hard drive advertised as USB3 .. only to find out it doesn't work with usb3 on a mac. only on pc.

ugh trials and tribulations

 

[Alcove Audio]

DR-100 or mkII version? The mkII was somewhat better than the original.

And yes, the internal mics suck (remember, the DR series is really aimed at musicians who work in LOUD envornments), and the preamps aren't much better.

YGWYPF - You get what you pay for.

 

[sfoster]

I got the mkII so I guess that is some silver lining.

I tested it out with a lav but it kept cutting out.
Not sure if it was the lav or the transmitter but I'm guessing the lavs because when the cord bent it seemed to correlate with cutting out.

I'm just aiming for something usable for youtube.
I used a zoom h4n for a couple shots in criminal bounds at it worked alright. not as nice as the ntg3 but still plenty usable

Wouldn't mind paying a little more if I can get a lot more mileage out of it.
Suggestions ?

 

[Sweetie]

What do you currently have/using/have access to?

What do you prefer to use? Lav, boom?

Do you have a sample of what kind of quality you're after?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWR56MZZ_BI

Did this rush late Wednesday night. Used a Sennheiser G3 (stock microphone) plugged into a Tascam DR-680.

 

[sfoster]

What do you currently have/using/have access to?

What do you prefer to use? Lav, boom?

Do you have a sample of what kind of quality you're after?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWR56MZZ_BI

Did this rush late Wednesday night. Used a Sennheiser G3 (stock microphone) plugged into a Tascam DR-680.

So far I've just used boom, but I wouldn't mind lav if I could get this set I have to work. I'll have to look into exactly what the problem is there.

No sample of what kind of quality really. I'll look into the 680 and compare it to the 100.

 

[Sweetie]

I noticed that the price of the 680 has really come down in price. Last time I looked B&H had the price under $300. The g3 will set you back, but I'm sure you'll be able to get a decent recording with the NTG-2, or did I read right, you already have a NTG-3?

 

[sfoster]

I noticed that the price of the 680 has really come down in price. Last time I looked B&H had the price under $300. The g3 will set you back, but I'm sure you'll be able to get a decent recording with the NTG-2, or did I read right, you already have a NTG-3?

A friend has the ntg-3 that I've used in the past, I don't have an external mic right now.

The 680 is not much more expensive than the 100. Not compared to what the old prices were.

Does it eat through packs of batteries?
Apparently there is a 680-mkii coming very soon at about $600 with 150% longer battery life

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...Kfdw5qBp8QCFe7m7Aod0XAABw&Q=&is=REG&A=details

Lol at this "upgrade" High-speed transfer of files to a computer using USB 2.0
Didn't spring for the 3.0 I see

 

[Sweetie]

Does it eat through packs of batteries?

Yes it does. The batteries are the worst part of the DR-680. Get a decent supply of eneloops. 3 hours is about how long a set of 8 last. I've been hesitant to do anything as I understand it can get temperamental with external battery supplies and brick itself. I've never had the confidence to try.

I wasn't aware of a new version coming out:

Improved audio quality
Take (file) numbers can be reset using the "Take No. Init" function for easier file management
Improved battery life now makes the unit last 150% longer than the original
Dual recording function for simultaneous recording of two files, one at -12 dB lower as a backup

These would be the functions that I'd see are nice improvements, but not really enough for me to to out and get another. I'd save up for a Sound Devices or equivalent system if I was to be wanting to step up my audio setup.

The take number init function would be very nice. It's one of the more annoying "convenience" issues with the dr-680.

As for USB, I've never used the USB function at all, so the upgrade to usb3.0 wouldn't excite me at all.

I also see that the 680 went back up into the $400+ range. At that price range, I'd probably suggest going for a DR-60D or a DR-70D instead and pocket the change.

 

[sfoster]

So you think the 60d would serve me better than the 100?
I just kinda figured the bigger number is better but thats a really simplistic view

 

[Alcove Audio]

You have to weigh what you want your device to do, have mic inputs, or be a handheld field recorder. Nothing, at least on that price range does both things well. The "toy" the professional field recorders use (sound effects, etc.) is the $200 Sony PCM-M10; but guess what? No XLR inputs! The DR-60D is a dedicated recorder, as is the new DR-70D.

On the whole, the -70D may be the better buy in the long run. It has a more slim shape than the -60D, which means it's more "bag-able" and can also be more easily mounted and monitored under the camera for when you're a one man crew; and it can do four (4) tracks (boom + two or three lavs, anyone???). I guess what I'm saying is that I like the ergonomics and the extra tracks, although the sound quality is probably not that much different than its cousins in the DR series. Just some food for thought...

 

[Sweetie]

So you think the 60d would serve me better than the 100?
I just kinda figured the bigger number is better but thats a really simplistic view

It doesn't quite work like that. The mkII compares closest to the h4n where the 60D compares closer to the H6N (or I might be thinking H5N).

As Alcove said, it is essentially a toy.

The reason I said that the 60D would probably be good for you is the performance to price ratio is very good. I owned a 60D for about a day before I returned it. The build quality was cheap. It's similar with the DR-680, but not quite to the extent of the 60D. I'm convinced that if you dropped either unit you'd say goodbye as they'd probably break into a few pieces. This is why I never let anyone else use the equipment. It'd be a different story with say a Sound Devices product. They're very solid and can take quite a beating. If you're considering having others use your equipment, it may be worth some consideration.

One big thing I didn't like with the 60D was the way that it recorded multiple tracks, by using the left and right channel of a stereo track to record each track. From memory, you can record 2 tracks using mono tracks, but nothing more. It'd be fine if you're recording a boom or a lav but you may end up with a longer workflow if you pushed past that. It'll be worth checking.

That being said, spending $200 isn't going to kill to many people's budget. The 60D (in my opinion) sounds way better than mkII. Though, if you put a quality pre-amp in front of it, that won't matter too much, so what purchase decisions you'll make in the future may also alter your current decision. You may be better off getting a Sound Devices MM-1 and putting it in front of your mkII.

I don't know much about the 70D so I'm not in a position to comment on it either way.

As I said earlier, it'll depend on what you're going to use this for and what quality you'll need... and your budget.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I'm just aiming for something usable for youtube.

That doesn't tell us much; anywhere between home video and top commercial standards.

I used a zoom h4n for a couple shots in criminal bounds at it worked alright. not as nice as the ntg3 but still plenty usable

That should tell you something. An ntg3 is about $700 for just a mic and a h4n is less than half that price for 2 mics, mic pre-amps and a recorder! Feature sets, build and sound quality may vary a little between different budget recorders but not significantly, as Alcove stated, YGWYPF.

Pro field recorders do not have built-in mics, as they're just an added cost which are next to useless in most situations. The budget recorders are designed as personal, portable recorders for musicians to record rehearsals, reporters and others to record interviews and/or operate more like a dictaphone and their field recorder capabilities are therefore compromised not only due to component cost but also by design. Unless you can get a budget recorder very close to the subject or plug in a third party mic, there's going to be relatively little noticeable improvement over just using the internal mic/recorder in a camera.

G

 

[sfoster]

To alcove.. I was hoping to go the super cheap route of strapping the recorder to a pole and using it as a boom mic directly. (if possible) It would be nice if I had something that was 'upgradable' in the sense that I could buy a nice mic for it later on, but that isn't the priority in this decision.

So maybe the pro 'toy' as you called it is what I should consider.
Mostly I just want something decent if I get the urge to film something.. some equipment of my own so I don't have to call a team together to practicing filming with a quick youtube short.

That doesn't tell us much; anywhere between home video and top commercial standards.

I don't expect ntg-3 quality with this.

What I DO expect is for medium gain, full input volume I shouldn't have to totally max out my speakers to listen to the recording made 6 inches away from the microphone.

Does that give you a good idea for the floor and ceiling of my standards?

Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong and should buy an ntg-2 to plug into the tascam?

 

[sfoster]

You have to weigh what you want your device to do, have mic inputs, or be a handheld field recorder. Nothing, at least on that price range does both things well. The "toy" the professional field recorders use (sound effects, etc.) is the $200 Sony PCM-M10; but guess what? No XLR inputs! The DR-60D is a dedicated recorder, as is the new DR-70D.

On the whole, the -70D may be the better buy in the long run. It has a more slim shape than the -60D, which means it's more "bag-able" and can also be more easily mounted and monitored under the camera for when you're a one man crew; and it can do four (4) tracks (boom + two or three lavs, anyone???). I guess what I'm saying is that I like the ergonomics and the extra tracks, although the sound quality is probably not that much different than its cousins in the DR series. Just some food for thought...

What do you think of an ntg-2 as the shotgun for a 70d

 

[AudioPostExpert]

What I DO expect is for medium gain, full input volume I shouldn't have to totally max out my speakers to listen to the recording made 6 inches away from the microphone.

Does that give you a good idea for the floor and ceiling of my standards?

Not really! There's a lot of variables at play here: 1. What does "medium gain" mean on your specific unit, baring in mind that the actual gain applied is generally not particularly linear relative to the gain setting in many/most budget recorders. 2. What exactly do you mean by a "full input volume". 3. The design of the mics might come into play depending on the primary use your specific unit (with internal mics) was designed for, for example much of your headroom might be being eaten by proximity effect. 4. I don't know the output characteristics of your speakers/amp; freq response, calibration, average/peak output power relative to your monitoring environment.

How does your recorder on internal mics compare to recording the same source on your camera's internal mic/recorder, at the same distance and at a gain setting which produces the same amount of noise/hiss? Generally I would expect slightly better performance from your recorder but not earth shatteringly better and possibly the same or even slightly worse under some specific circumstances.

Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong and should buy an ntg-2 to plug into the tascam?

The internal mics on budget recorders are never (AFAIK) designed specifically for film applications and if, as is usual, they are designed for general wide-field sound recording such as music for example, this would specifically be about the worst type of mic/s for filming. Therefore, I think you are looking at this all wrong! You will definitely get substantially better performance using an external mic designed for filming use. I'm not a fan of the ntg2 but I'll let others more experienced in this market sector suggest something better for the price. Lookup one of Alcove's well informed posts on the subject of the ntg2.

G

 

[Sweetie]

ntg-2 as the shotgun for a 70d

The NTG-2 is a little soft compared to the NTG-3, so you'll need to turn up the gain a little more on your recorder. I'm assuming the 70D's preamps are about as quiet as the 60D's (if not better) I think you'll be mostly fine. I'd suggest borrowing (or renting) a NTG-2 for an afternoon to test to see if it'll fit your needs.

 

[Alcove Audio]

DO NOT get the NGT-2; it is notorious for it's low output levels. You'll be better off with the NTG-1 or AT875.

 

[sfoster]

Very helpful guys, thanks!
It would be sweet to have an ntg-3 since my friend already has one. We could use two mics and have them match nearly exactly.

But so much more expensive. I think the way to go is the ntg-1 and 70D.

I hope it sounds louder

 

[AudioPostExpert]

It would be sweet to have an ntg-3 since my friend already has one. ... But so much more expensive.

On the other hand, microphones are analogue audio devices (transducers) and the technology of analogue devices changes relatively little and slowly. The Sennheiser 416 is a shotgun mic which was pretty much ubiquitous in the film industry from the early 1980's until quite recently and is still manufactured today. I wouldn't recommend one though because the NTG-3 is nearly identical to a 416 but costs a fair bit less. Unlike your camera and other digital technology which will be outdated fairly quickly, if you treat it kindly, the NTG-3 will likely be a one time purchase and the last shotgun mic you ever buy! In other words, although it may appear to have a fairly high initial cost relative to budget filming mics, it's actually pretty cheap given the duration of it's potential "lifetime" and represents a pretty good investment.

I hope it sounds louder

Careful here! "Loudness" is NOT relevant, Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR) is what's important! For example, when you go to a decent cinema and watch an action flick does it sound significantly quieter than when you watch your TV or listen to music? If your answer is "no", "not particularly" or "the cinema is actually louder", this proves loudness is irrelevant, as average cinema levels are roughly 10dB or so lower than TV levels and 20dB or so lower than most commercial music recordings!

G

 

[sfoster]

Should have guessed I was opening a bag of worms talking about loudness

In all seriousness though, you think I could use the NTG-3 professionally? Say if I have lofty ambitions of getting a film into sundance someday, the NTG-3 in the hands of a capable operator and mixer will give me theatrical quality dialogue recording?

After giving this some thought about a recorder+microphone, i think I should be looking at hypercardioids. My friend already has an ntg-3, so if I pick up a hypercardioid I'll be able to film my own trivial stuff indoors nicely and then supplement my more ambitious team projects with a nice indoor recording.