This is the MOST important aspect of filmmaking.

You think you can forget poor visuals Chimp?Can you?

Yes, I can. Not that I don't care for visuals, they are very important to me. I think it is important to bring up the importance of audio, even exaggerate it, seeing that there are many good films that could be even better with good audio and aside from marketing, it is probably the most overlooked area of filmmaking in the indie world. I think visuals are VERY important. They can make or break a film. Although it is important to understand that all aspects of filmmaking are important. But I've been content with films with poor visuals. I remember some films with poor visuals, but of course, that is completely subjective, that I've liked.

Stranger than Paradise, Clerks, and Festen are three that come to mind.
 
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Ah... While this statement appears entirely logical, it is in practise a non-sequitur logical fallacy, a quite common fallacy amongst indie filmmakers. If the sound fails to meet the technical standards required by the festival/distributor/broadcaster, regardless of how good the film is overall, the audience will not cheer and clap when the end credits roll because there will be NO audience, not because they all "walk out", but because they cannot "walk in" in the first place!

So it's settled,

No, it's not settled.

In fact, some of your comments are outright false -- mostly caused by generalizing. Get off your high horse and take look around and see if you can spot your errors.

----

While bad sound (or no sound), and other technical issues does not bode well for the majority of films, it's not true for ALL films or ALL festivals.
 
While bad sound (or no sound), and other technical issues does not bode well for the majority of films, it's not true for ALL films or ALL festivals.

Apparently, you didn't read the rest of the post...

Fully understanding market forces/expectations AND technical demands (and applying that understanding) is both uncreative and uninteresting to the vast majority of filmmakers and is therefore the most fundamental difference between hobbyist and professional filmmakers. Fortunately, platforms like YouTube and provincial film festivals have virtually no minimum technical standards or market expectations and therefore provide an outlet for hobbyist filmmakers.
 
For real, I don't know how there's even a debate in this thread. I kinda feel like we should all be in unison on this one. Everything matters.

There isn't a great movie that looks great but sounds horrible.

There isn't a great movie that has hollywood-level sound and a terrible script.

There isn't a great movie that has a stellar script but looks like it was shot with a potato.

I've kinda taken Paul's words out of context, cuz he was satirizing the people who say that the ONE most important thing is audio/story/cinematography. Nevertheless, each of those phrases is true. Because EVERYTHING matters, and that's really all Paul was saying.

Personally, I think too many indie filmmakers ignore both music and acting. But that's just my soapbox, and I'd be a fool to say that either of those things is THE most important aspect of filmmaking. We all have our things that we creatively tend towards, and that's something APE astutely pointed out here --

...many indie filmmakers are essentially hobbyists, even though they may aspire to be something else. I don't mean this in the derogatory sense, I mean they tend to make films primarily for themselves, focusing on their own filmmaking interests, and in so doing, avoid (as much as possible) those aspects of filmmaking they consider to be uncreative/uninteresting. Fully understanding market forces/expectations AND technical demands (and applying that understanding) is both uncreative and uninteresting to the vast majority of filmmakers and is therefore the most fundamental difference between hobbyist and professional filmmakers. Fortunately, platforms like YouTube and provincial film festivals have virtually no minimum technical standards or market expectations and therefore provide an outlet for hobbyist filmmakers.

Though I hate the word "hobbyist", your comments do ring true. But in defense of us filmmakers who focus most of our energies on only a small handful of production aspects, I think it's mostly a matter of choosing something that we want to get good at.

Think about yourself. You're an expert at one thing -- audio post. Imagine if you had tried to also become an expert in cinematography. Could you have done it? Could you have mastered both crafts at the same time? Of course not, and I know that you wouldn't claim that you could.

Most of us indie filmmakers are essentially beginners. If one aspect of our production is better than others, it doesn't mean that we think the other aspects don't matter, it's just that we're still developing our skills and haven't gotten to those other areas yet.

The OP, and most subsequent contributors to this thread, don't appear to be talking in hobbyist films terms but in professional/commercial film terms or at least, potentially commercially viable film terms. In which case, the first, most fundamental and therefore "MOST important aspect of filmmaking" is finding out what the commercial demands/expectations are and identifying the resources which will realistically enable those expectations and demands to be met.

And you hit the nail on the head here. I absolutely, wholeheartedly, embrace and encourage no-budget filmmakers to make the best film that they can, using the resources that they have. But if you want your film to be seen and appreciated by wide audiences, EVERY aspect of the film needs to be top-notch.
 
Ah... While this statement appears entirely logical, it is in practise a non-sequitur logical fallacy, a quite common fallacy amongst indie filmmakers. If the sound fails to meet the technical standards required by the festival/distributor/broadcaster, regardless of how good the film is overall, the audience will not cheer and clap when the end credits roll because there will be NO audience, not because they all "walk out", but because they cannot "walk in" in the first place!

So it's settled, sound must be the most important aspect of filmmaking. Well, no! You can have great sound but if the legalities; copyrights, clearances, etc., are not in order, your film cannot be distributed and again, no audience! But, even with great sound, sorted legalities and therefore a distributable film, without marketing no one will be enticed to pay to see the film. Again, no audience!

I mention this simply because many indie filmmakers are essentially hobbyists, even though they may aspire to be something else. I don't mean this in the derogatory sense, I mean they tend to make films primarily for themselves, focusing on their own filmmaking interests, and in so doing, avoid (as much as possible) those aspects of filmmaking they consider to be uncreative/uninteresting. Fully understanding market forces/expectations AND technical demands (and applying that understanding) is both uncreative and uninteresting to the vast majority of filmmakers and is therefore the most fundamental difference between hobbyist and professional filmmakers. Fortunately, platforms like YouTube and provincial film festivals have virtually no minimum technical standards or market expectations and therefore provide an outlet for hobbyist filmmakers.

The OP, and most subsequent contributors to this thread, don't appear to be talking in hobbyist films terms but in professional/commercial film terms or at least, potentially commercially viable film terms. In which case, the first, most fundamental and therefore "MOST important aspect of filmmaking" is finding out what the commercial demands/expectations are and identifying the resources which will realistically enable those expectations and demands to be met. All the other aspects of filmmaking, the aspects which determine if a film is actually any good or not, ultimately require people (audiences) to make that determination, which of course is impossible if they never get to see it!

G

Good points, APE. I think in addition to your pointing out the difference between hobbyists and professional operations we might also note that professional filmmakers, depending upon what department they're in, don't need to be bothered by those aspects they have no interest in. I mean to say, I'm guessing an A-list director like Spielberg doesn't have to bother with procuring copyrights, clearances, locations, etc etc; that's someone else's job. Okay, Spielberg might not be the best example because maybe he does get involved in producer's duties. But you probably get my drift. On the other hand, the typical hobbyist filmmaker probably, more often than not, does have to do it all themselves, or at least much of it, depending.

So it does seem worthwhile to recognize that divide between what hobbyists are up against, and what professionals whose concerns or duties are probably more specialized are up against.

No, it's not settled.

In fact, some of your comments are outright false -- mostly caused by generalizing. Get off your high horse and take look around and see if you can spot your errors.

----

While bad sound (or no sound), and other technical issues does not bode well for the majority of films, it's not true for ALL films or ALL festivals.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I read that "So it's settled..." part to mean, "as if it were settled." Notice how he follows that (ironic?) statement with, "Well, no!"
 
Wait... I thought the most important aspect was...

screen-shot-2013-12-24-at-10-10-15-am.png


:rolleyes: no?
 
:) T-Heads is the most important aspect indeed!

Buuuut seriously... one might argue that filmmaking is THE most collaborative creative process out there, if not one of the most collaborative art forms to date, so narrowing it down to This, That or Theotherthing is, for me, incredibly difficult, a slippery slope and along the same variety of questions as "What's your favorite film/filmmaker?"

Would Scorsese have achieved everything he set out to and become the director he is today without his ongoing collaborations with De Niro, Thelma Schoonmaker, or Robert Richardson and Michael Chapman? And vice-versa! Sure, he'd find someone to get in front of the camera and behind it, but would his films be or become the masterpieces that we watch time and time again? Who knows?
 
Though I hate the word "hobbyist", your comments do ring true.

I only used "hobbyist" because I couldn't think of a better word. I didn't use it in the sense of someone who just "messes around with a hobby" on occasion, I've met quite a few people in the past (in the music business) who called themselves a "hobbyist" but were virtually indistinguishable from high quality professionals; in terms of skill, attitude, dedication and quality of performance. The only real difference was professional experience due to the fact they didn't want the pressure, risk, semi-nomadic life style, etc.

Think about yourself. You're an expert at one thing -- audio post. Imagine if you had tried to also become an expert in cinematography. Could you have done it? Could you have mastered both crafts at the same time? Of course not, and I know that you wouldn't claim that you could.

I absolutely agree, no way could I have done that. But in a sense, that is what I was alluding to with this sentence:
"therefore "MOST important aspect of filmmaking" is finding out what the commercial demands/expectations are and identifying the resources which will realistically enable those expectations and demands to be met."

I chose the word "resources" very carefully because it not only covers funding/budget, it also covers the filmmaker's own talent, skills, equipment, time and effort and those of the filmmaker's colleagues. I also chose the word "realistically" carefully because it implies the ability to be objective about one's own talent, skills, equipment, time and effort. I see a lot of indie filmmakers who seem to me to approach filmmaking backwards: They don't have much money, so they start making their film with a budget they can't go over and take each filmmaking step trying to do it as cheaply as possible. Then they get to post-production and start thinking about what festivals they can get into, how they can market and get some money back from their film. I know this is a gross over simplification but you get my point. I'm saying the whole process should be the other way around: What do I need to achieve to make money back on my film and/or what festivals do I want to enter? Then; what tech requirements and artistic expectations need to be met (or exceeded) for those festivals and/or distribution outlet/s I'm targeting? Then; how much is this going to cost in terms of resources (skills, time, equipment, effort and money) to realistically meet these requirements/expectations? If this cost is more than you've got, you'll either need additional funding or to re-think your project or your strategy (which festivals, distribution channel/s, etc) but you should know this before you start. By doing it the other way around, you have no idea if you stand a chance of getting any money back and no idea of what festivals you stand a chance of getting into until you've already finished or nearly finished your film and by then there's no resources left to do much about it to change the outcome! It's like building your own car; before you start you need to know what your personal requirements from a car are and from that, what specifications the car will need, baring in mind you'll have to meet any safety and emission regulations. If you start building your car without finding any of this out, the chances are you'll end up with half a car because you'll give up when you realise you're not going to end up with a car which you or anyone else will ever actually want to drive or, you'll end up with a working car which you can only ever drive around your garden because it's not road legal!

Most of us indie filmmakers are essentially beginners. If one aspect of our production is better than others, it doesn't mean that we think the other aspects don't matter, it's just that we're still developing our skills and haven't gotten to those other areas yet.

You'll never get to those other areas, you've only got one lifetime! :) A film with surprisingly good cinematography considering the available resources but with terrible sound is still a bad film! A film with surprisingly good music and sound considering the resources and terrible cinematography is still a bad film! A film with surprisingly good cinematography, music and sound but with terrible acting is still a bad film! Nobody cares (except maybe other filmmakers) what resources you had available, they just want a decent film and that's difficult with any amount of money because as the budget goes up so do the requirements and expectations of those you need to target to make a profit. In other words, it's damned difficult at every budget level and can only be achieved by very carefully identifying what resources are needed and then realistically prioritising where you need to spend whatever money you've got to obtain the resources to achieve the required end result. It takes a lot of learning, time and effort to develop the skills to be able to identify, source and manage all the required resources but it is realistically achievable within one lifetime and it provides by far the greatest likelihood of avoiding a bad film.

...the typical hobbyist filmmaker probably, more often than not, does have to do it all themselves, or at least much of it, depending.

If a filmmaker does not have all the resources themselves to make a film which fulfils their requirements, say entry to a certain level of film festival or a certain level of financial or other type of return, then they need to identify this fact before they begin and avoid it.

So it does seem worthwhile to recognize that divide between what hobbyists are up against, and what professionals whose concerns or duties are probably more specialized are up against.

At a fundamental level, I think all filmmakers are "up against" the same thing, be they no budget amateurs or big budget professionals. It might seem like you could do anything in the world with $100m, if you've managed to make a film for <$2k, but you'd be wrong! Virtually without exception, all filmmakers have to identify "resources", prioritise and compromise. While the details maybe different, it's pretty much a given at any budget level that you've never got as much resources as you really need.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I read that "So it's settled..." part to mean, "as if it were settled." Notice how he follows that (ironic?) statement with, "Well, no!"

Nope, you're not mistaken!

G
 
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