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critique The next bit.

Another ten pages, for anyone interested (if so, Mr. N and Ms. m, honestly, thanks, and sorry if I become burdensome.)

Anyway, I know, now, where this is going, but don't know, yet, if I can get there. I research and brainstorm each scene and sequence, and putz around until something gets started. Like the first domestic scene here. It feels a little improvisatory, to me, and may not work. I don't know.

Anyway, my question is still: is this interesting (or not), intriguing (or not).

Anyway, thanks again. :)

https://www.keepandshare.com/doc30/113774/kp3-pdf-112k?da=y
 
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I like it a lot! It definitely is interesting (to me) and I love the way the little kids come across as puppies, which is very realistic.

My one suggestion is that some of the dialogue can be trimmed a bit to avoid havint characters seem like they're making speeches.

For example, on p 2, when Sebastian extols the wonderful feast, maybe Maria Barbara can ask if they had beef, which is her favorite. Then he can go on to describe it.

The dialogue between Ernst August and Wilhelm Ernest is good and I get the pomposity that (I think) you're aiming for. But I think you can trim it and still convey that.

One small example is on p 7, where I think WE 's lines about the servant can be trimmed to "He does his job and can quote his Luther."

I look forward to seeing more :)
 
Thanks again, Mara, for taking the time. It is helpful, and, as I said, motivating.

Your suggestions are really good. As (if) I get farther, I can begin to go back and start trimming. Each of the two scenes, the family and the dukes, are about five pages, which, they say, is about five minutes, which seems as if it might be a little long. And one of the fist place to trim is speachy bits of dialogue, especially when they sound too speachy, not natural, and your two examples are are, I think, very good.

Part of the fun of this, for me, is the research. I mention four kinds of meat, not because it is of any real relevance (besides showing Sebastian as a man who enjoys his food, his beer, und, quoting Prof. Greenburg, his schnapps, lol,) but because, due to the relative scarcity of contemporary documents, those that do exist are always worked in. For example, Christoph Wolff in the seminal JS Bach, The Learned Musician, mentions the four kinds of meat, as does John Elliott Gardner, in Music in the Castle of Heaven, as does virtually everybody else when writing about this specific time. The reason, I think, is simply that the menu exists, lol.
A89A7FA4-4C3C-46E7-A3F5-88E3C430F0CA.png
 
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Here are a few more images of things one would see in this sequence. I just think it's cool :)

108E6BD3-E246-4DDE-BF1F-9F3CE96FC3C4.jpeg

Invention one, in Bach's own (I believe) hand

375DFDE4-CD5A-404D-A5E1-F287C6F83152.jpeg

Ernst August

E2399C80-DCC1-46F8-89DF-7A8D9C871CAA.jpeg

Wilhelm Ernst

21277ABE-3265-445B-B83A-3900C589B7D2.jpeg

The Chapel, the Castle of Heaven, in the Ducal palace
8CB26164-9E2C-4C1E-BB99-960A2C648F5E.jpeg
Wilhelm Ernst's palace. Destroyed in the war.

506F137E-F361-4B49-B15A-73640A54C7AF.jpeg

The Red Palace -- still standing.
 
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For me, the fun part is picturing them in casual moments - no powdered wigs or fancy uniforms. Bach with his shirt untucked as he plays with the kids and wife, with her perhaps a bit jealous that she didn't have a chance to try all that great food :)
 
SEBASTIAN
...and what a feast at the dedication!
MARIA BARBARA
A feast? What were you fed? I suppose mutton.
SEBASTIAN
Not just mutton. Also beef.
MARIA BARBARA
Beef?
(Teasing)
Children, you father eats roast beef, to our beets and cabbage.
SEBASTIAN
And ham. And veal. Huge bowls of peas and potatoes, a warm asparagus salad, boiled pumpkin, preserved lemon and cherries--
MARIA BARBARA
And, I am sure, your fill of beverage.
SEBASTIAN
Yes, a temperate amount.

Maria Barbara levels her eyes.
 
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Nice! I like it much better as banter between the spouses.

I don't know if this would work, but my dad was stationed in Austria in the 1950's when he was in the American army (the post-WW2 peace treaty with that country hadn't yet been signed, which is another story :) ). He always joked that everything was served "mit schlag" meaning "with whipped cream."
 
Lol. In the actual menu above, it says the beef was "a la mode," which means to me, with ice cream, which is hard to imagine. I think your dad gives the answer! I'll try to work it in. :)

Edit: Ah, I should have looked it up on the google. Wikipedia says: "Beef à la mode or bœuf à la mode is a French dish of a piece of beef braised in stock and wine with carrots and onions. " Oh well, I did like the idea of beef with whipped cream. Maybe I can make the fruit mit shlag. :)
 
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Nice! I like it much better as banter between the spouses.

I don't know if this would work, but my dad was stationed in Austria in the 1950's when he was in the American army (the post-WW2 peace treaty with that country hadn't yet been signed, which is another story :) ). He always joked that everything was served "mit schlag" meaning "with whipped cream."
Yes, thanks. It was your suggestion: Maria Barbara being a little jealous, leading to a little spousal teasing. And I still get to make Christoph Wolff happy with some historically accurate detail :)
 
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I think it's coming along nicely. There's really no complaints or criticisms that I have to offer, other than that a G is missing at the end of the word "trippin" early on.

I do have a thought though. These aristocratic 1700s characters, the antagonistic, aloof, strict, formal types that populate innumerable historical fictions. I find them one dimensional at this point, after watching many different films and series. They are always portrayed in the same way, and it's an effective trope, but I can't help but imagine that real people, even pompous ones, don't really act like imperial officers from star wars, angry at everything they encounter, punitive and hostile at every turn. Flipside is it's a movie, and you don't have that long to imprint which characters are on which side.

I'd cite as an example the way GRRM writes his palace denizens, in kind of a greyscale spectrum, with a few 1d characters, but those more central to the plot being more multifaceted. Take Sir Alister. We don't like him, because he hates John Snow, and acts like a jerk most of the time, but there are also a lot of moments where we see him display positive character aspects, such as fairness, loyalty, sacrifice, etc. He's still one of the series "bad guys", but feels more believable due to the nuance. There's even a scene where he literally walks the protagonist through a pretty logical explanation of why he needs to be antagonistic.

In summary, I feel like the template for pompous 1700's era antagonists is getting a bit predictable. It's a general observation, not anything wrong with your script.

Anyway, really good overall,
 
These aristocratic 1700s characters, the antagonistic, aloof, strict, formal types that populate innumerable historical fictions. I find them one dimensional

I often find that true too but there are a few relatively recent examples that I think have avoided that: Marie Antoinette, directed by Sofia Coppola & starring Kirsten Dunst and The Favourite, directed by Yorgis Lanthimos & starring Olivia Colman.

If you can find a way to stay true to the time but not make them look like they never unbend, then you'll have a far better script. And on that same subject, I recommend that you NOT stay too true to the language of the time. Shakespeare's language, for example, feels formal to us but wasn't at the time.
 
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These are some very good notes, and i thank you both.

I don’t think I have any real talent for, or even any real interest in, writing historical fiction. But I’ve always loved Bach, always been interested in Baroque era music, and, once I started to see how this particular story might be told, I wanted to try to tell it.

Anyway. The first scene, the family scene, is basically just a transition, an introduction to the family, and a picture of Sebastian as a family man. But it could be more focused.

The scene with the Dukes needs to show, basically, the contentious working conditions for Sebastian, Wilhelm Ernst s growing dissatisfaction with him, and the conflict between the two co-reigning Dukes, particularly over the duties of their Concertmaster. All these things will inform what is to come. But, as you both noticed, I have the elder Ernst as kind of a stock villain, which he was not: he did hire Bach, did promote him, did compensate him well, and was able to appreciate his talent. He is just, now, getting bruised by, growing weary of, Sebastian’s independence.

But this scene seems, to me, particularly inert, and I see more, now, why: Stock, even corny, cliched characters. I have to try to learn how to make this better, especially with the minor characters, something like what Nate talks about. Also, I agree, it's too long.

The language. A lot of it sounds grating, even to me. My problem is that, right now, I don’t know how they sound, so I settle into a kind of stilted diction. For example, I have Sebastian say, “If ever we need….” and this kind of stuff just sounds bad, sometimes even comically so. There‘s a balance here, as Mara suggests, a sound that I don’t have now, but should eventually be able to find. And it shouldn’t be all that hard. For example, I just changed a line, in an upcoming scene, from “I have never heard the like of it.” to “I’ve never heard anything like it.” Bingo, lol.

Anyway, I don’t think this bit is very good, but I am not disheartened. The good news is that it shouldn’t be prohibitively hard to make better, especially with the help of some attentive and thoughtful feedback.

So, thanks again.

Preview: Next, on SCRIPT TITLE (1 page)

https://www.keepandshare.com/doc30/113775/next-pdf-31k?da=y
 
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hey, Mara. Yup, short. I amused myself by imagining a "next time on..." preview, like at the end of a TV show, lol.

And the girls. This is a specific, unique situation. And the story of the Ospitale Della Pieta, The Hospital of Mercy, in Venice is fascinating.

Wikipedia:

"The Ospedale della Pietà was a convent, orphanage, and music school in Venice. Like other Venetian ospedali, the Pietà was first established as a hospice for the needy . . . a charitable institution for orphans and abandoned girls in the fourteenth century. By the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries the Pietà – along with the three other charitable Ospedalie Grandi – was well known for its all-female musical ensembles that attracted tourists and patrons from around Europe.
. . . Infants could be left at the Pietà via the scaffetta, a window only large enough to admit infants.
. . . The audience was separated from the performers by a metal grill,"

Antonio Vivaldi was a violin teacher, and eventually orchestra leader, at the Pieta, Prince Leopold traveled through Venice on his Grand Tour, And Bach studied Vivaldi's concerti, transcribing 10 for keyboard, which would have a great influence on his secular instrumental music, I don't know if this is enough connection for the next scene in the story, leaving Weimar for Venice, but the story of the Pieta is such a cool story I thought I should give it a shot.

Here is the Pieta:


And Vivaldi would have performed something like this, perhaps this itself, in the Pieta with his virtuosic girls:


Anyway, here's the scene:


(& thanks for asking :) )
 
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I don’t think I have any real talent for, or even any real interest in, writing historical fiction. But I’ve always loved Bach, always been interested in Baroque era music, and, once I started to see how this particular story might be told, I wanted to try to tell it.
It would be a shame if a b+ writer with enough humility to constantly improve gave up. Have you seen what's out there? I used to go through stacks of d- scripts, and never find one that I felt had this much potential. And while you are saying that you don't think you have any talent, all those d- writers simply could not shut up about how talented they were.

People are very excited about shouting at each other about which groups are underrepresented these days. So I'll pile on. You know who I think is criminally underrepresented in todays world? Intelligent people with humility and a reasonable self image.

You should keep writing. This is a good idea you have here, and if you run a search, I think you'll be shocked by how rarely I've used that phrase.
 
My intention was just to find out if anyone thought the project worth perusing; I couldn't tell if there would be an audience for something like this, or if I could get into it at all, or if so, if it wouldn't just be junk.

Anyway, these questions are now generously answered, for me, from a few trusted sources of diverse tastes and interests, and so I continue on!

Thanks :)
 
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