mrde50 said:Congratulations, your film budget just became 5 million dollars lighter.
Ha! Ouch!
The case FOR Pirate DVD's...
- Thread starter mr-modern-life
- Start date
Ha! Ouch!
Over priced?
£6 isn't a lot of money. These days I pay half that for a cup of coffee, which I drink in about ten minutes and then forget about. I've never in my life gone home after two Chai Tea Lattes and said to my wife "Honey, you should have seen the grande latte I just had, man it was the best frothy drink I've ever had in my entire life, there was this great bit about half way through when the milk got really foamy and then ..etc." But as this board proves almost everyday some of us are still talking enthusiastically about films we saw in the cinema twenty-five years ago. Watching a film in a cinema is a potentially life changing experince that lives with us forever. Man, I can still remember going to see 101 Dalamtions in a cinema when I seven years old, I've vivid memories of seeing One Flew Over the Cuckoos nest in 1984 in a cinema in Croydon, I still remember seeing Beverley Hills Cop in a cinema in Manor House, ( I was the only white guy in the place and the whole cinema was full of grass smoke; I had to go back again the next day becuase people were laughing so much that we couldn't hear all the lines). I also remember seeing the Exocist in a cinema in Paris, the cinema was packed and when one guy walked out because it was too frightening the audience heckled him. Or what about when I got to see the premiere of "Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrrels" at the Edinburgh Film Festival and everyone gave it a standing ovation at the end.
Man, some of the best experinces of my life have been in cinemas. I'd pay twice what I'm paying now, because for me cinema is the reason I make films, there is no other experience quite like it and unless you're going to pack my room with dope smoking Rastifarians and witty Parisians and get me a TV twenty feet wide, seeing films at home isn't ever going to come close.
I remember the time when i was browsing the Strawberry fields car boot sale in Bridlington and bought the Full Monty on dvd for £2. I thought i had a bargin, but then i watched it...
The picture looked as if someone had used a camcorder on a tripod and filmed it all direct from the cinema screen! I could even hear people crunching popcorn throughout the film.
So the following week i took it back to Bridlington and pay this rogue trader a visit. As expected i recieved no refund and got a load of "F" words shouted at me, but i still got the number plate of his car written down and passed it all onto Trading Standards with the dvd.
The piracy is the black market and the sharks responsible for this do not care about the film industry as every penny goes into their back pocket, giving the Filmmaker absolutely nothing for all his/her hard work.
As for the cinema, yes i know the snacks there are expensive thats why i always bring a mars bar and a bottle of mineral water, with no complaints from anyone.
The picture looked as if someone had used a camcorder on a tripod and filmed it all direct from the cinema screen! I could even hear people crunching popcorn throughout the film.
So the following week i took it back to Bridlington and pay this rogue trader a visit. As expected i recieved no refund and got a load of "F" words shouted at me, but i still got the number plate of his car written down and passed it all onto Trading Standards with the dvd.
The piracy is the black market and the sharks responsible for this do not care about the film industry as every penny goes into their back pocket, giving the Filmmaker absolutely nothing for all his/her hard work.
As for the cinema, yes i know the snacks there are expensive thats why i always bring a mars bar and a bottle of mineral water, with no complaints from anyone.
I agree some of my best expereinces (ask me one day about the horny girlfriend and Liv Tyler washing a car in One Night At mccools!!!) but it isnt £6. With two people, drinks, food its upwards of £20!
20 years ago, 10 even people respected the art, the atmos, the feel. Now they dont. And that has killed the expereince for me. Prices go up, quality and service go down.
As I said Dawn Of The Dead was amazing, people chearing. Wild Things in LA with a crowd screaming for nudity. That was superb. Now you get some chav spitting and providing an x rated commentry for some kids film when i take my newphews. F**k that.
I'd rather sit at home. Or start my own private members cinema...
NO KIDS
NO IDIOTS/CHAVS
NO POPCORN/SWEATS
NO TALKING OR BREATHING LOUD
SOUND CRANKED UP FULL
AND BEER & CIGS!
Thats my idea of a good cinema!
20 years ago, 10 even people respected the art, the atmos, the feel. Now they dont. And that has killed the expereince for me. Prices go up, quality and service go down.
As I said Dawn Of The Dead was amazing, people chearing. Wild Things in LA with a crowd screaming for nudity. That was superb. Now you get some chav spitting and providing an x rated commentry for some kids film when i take my newphews. F**k that.
I'd rather sit at home. Or start my own private members cinema...
NO KIDS
NO IDIOTS/CHAVS
NO POPCORN/SWEATS
NO TALKING OR BREATHING LOUD
SOUND CRANKED UP FULL
AND BEER & CIGS!
Thats my idea of a good cinema!
Hollywood studios keep churning out the movies they do because people go watch them. Its that simple. The re-hashed formula movies do well enough to make a profit, so that's what will continue to get made. Hypothetically, if overall theater attendance just dropped (across the board -- ALL movies) by 50%, then the studios would likely not see this as a sign that they need to create a different style of movie -- they would just refocus their efforts on turning out the guaranteed hits (ie: crap) and eliminate the more experimental types of films as being too risky. I see piracy ultimately having this effect. If it does anything, it will just reduce the chances a studio will take on a non-formulaic movie.
Changing the movie indistry requires TWO things to occur simulatneously -- 1) STOP going to the movies you want Hollywood to stop making, and 2) START going to the movies you want to support.
Incidentally, these steps will actually need to be followed by the majority of the largest demographic segment of regular movie attendees in order for it to actually have an affect. I don't have any statistics in front of me, but I would venture a guess that the group is probably in the 15 - 25 age range. So, how do you convince all the teens and young adults that they should support movies like Brokeback Mountain instead of King Kong?
Changing the movie indistry requires TWO things to occur simulatneously -- 1) STOP going to the movies you want Hollywood to stop making, and 2) START going to the movies you want to support.
Incidentally, these steps will actually need to be followed by the majority of the largest demographic segment of regular movie attendees in order for it to actually have an affect. I don't have any statistics in front of me, but I would venture a guess that the group is probably in the 15 - 25 age range. So, how do you convince all the teens and young adults that they should support movies like Brokeback Mountain instead of King Kong?
Eddie Rex said:
I agree with the balck market but is it any different to a DVD costing £20 when in actuality it costs less that 50p to produce? DVD's have such a stupid mark up that the film maker NEVER sees. See my Forrest Gump example. And this isn't alone.
Why for the most part are deferred agreements Bullshit. because it's very hard to make a good deal these days. Most people never get paid. And the industry isnt that different. If a studio can make Forrest Gump loose money so they dont pay out but they make the money... how is that fair?
You liek giving money to studio execs who only care about a bottom line they move to suit their needs?
As for bringing my own... I got told off for eating food I hadn't bought at the cinema last week.
Hmm, let's see what's playing in my local theatre:
Cheaper by the Dozen 2. Formulaic rehash. I'll skip this one.
King Kong. 3+ hour monkey business. I saw the 1930's version. Skipped.
Narnia. I saw the cartoon when I was 5. Skipped.
Fun With Dick And Jane. Yet another remake. It has to be bad because I hate the actors. Skipped.
Munich. The 1972 massacre is something I'd like to FORGET. Skipped.
Oh well. There's nothing I want to see. I guess I won't go.
This is my protest to Hollywood. I don't see anything that intrests me. There's no independent films in the list, either.
Cheaper by the Dozen 2. Formulaic rehash. I'll skip this one.
King Kong. 3+ hour monkey business. I saw the 1930's version. Skipped.
Narnia. I saw the cartoon when I was 5. Skipped.
Fun With Dick And Jane. Yet another remake. It has to be bad because I hate the actors. Skipped.
Munich. The 1972 massacre is something I'd like to FORGET. Skipped.
Oh well. There's nothing I want to see. I guess I won't go.
This is my protest to Hollywood. I don't see anything that intrests me. There's no independent films in the list, either.
mrde50 said:
God your privileged. We get Narnia on two screens and Kong on two leaving 2 screens for whatever is left!
Maybe the problem is the cinema.
If you have a bad experience then go to a different one.
After many years of searching for a theater I have finally found a theater that has great ambience, respectful workers, and free refills of beverages and popcorn. The sound is pretty good and the patrons aren't too bad. Perhaps it's the actual cinema.
If you have a bad experience then go to a different one.
After many years of searching for a theater I have finally found a theater that has great ambience, respectful workers, and free refills of beverages and popcorn. The sound is pretty good and the patrons aren't too bad. Perhaps it's the actual cinema.
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mrde50 said:
I totally agree, thats why I dont go to the cinema much. Even the local art house is a multi use facility and its only once every month or two they program a film, half of which are special interest and I have no interest in watching. Make films that I want to see and I will gladly pay my way into a theater. I remember times in the past I would go once a week, not now.
So, are they still screening Bewitched where you are?mr-modern-life said:
Wow, reading this thread has opened up mye eyes a bit as to how many people don't go to the movies. I can't fathom anyone not wanting to see King Kong or Narnia. But then again, I realise that I have always been attracted to spectacle films whether good or bad.
As I said before, I go to the theater at least once a week, so the movie industry has gotten plenty of money from me over the years, yet I do not deal in pirated DVDs. Clive's right, it's a moral issue with me. And I don't care if the second unit carpenter doesn't see a fraction of my money, in the end I don't feel it matters who gets the money from the product, all that matters is that stealing is against the law and wrong.
Poke
As I said before, I go to the theater at least once a week, so the movie industry has gotten plenty of money from me over the years, yet I do not deal in pirated DVDs. Clive's right, it's a moral issue with me. And I don't care if the second unit carpenter doesn't see a fraction of my money, in the end I don't feel it matters who gets the money from the product, all that matters is that stealing is against the law and wrong.
Poke
Poke said:
I did see Kong and I might see Narnia before its done. Tristan & Isolde sounds like it might be decent too, as well as New World (but I dont like Farell), and maybe one or three others in the next three months that at least intrigue me.
No I have no interest in buying bootleg DVD's. zero. I carefully decide what movies I want to own and I buy them. Furthermore if I see a movie that has just come out and I want to see it I go to the cinema (in LA I had nice AMC's and such but here its not as deluxe but thats ok, its still fun).
As you said Poke, I put my money where my mouth is and do realize now that I am supporting the filmmakers and their crews by doing so. And if a 2nd unit carpenter worked on deferrment and the producers didnt negotiate well enough with the distributor that that guy will make some money back, well that isnt my fault.
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Isn't that SCARY? We're filmmakers and we don't go to the movies...Poke said:
Things I'm thankful for: Home video and HBO. Without them, I don't think I'd have any interest in movies.
When I hear a statement like this I have an anarchist knee jerk reaction to want to break the law. In all fairness to pokemaster he did say that for him this was a morale issue and I respect that. However I would like to see a artists, filmmakers, writers, etc have a greater discussion about the copyright laws that increasingly favor large cooperations and not the interest of the consumer. I am even less familiar with UK copyright law than with US but I imagine the laws are similar. And while I must be clear that in most cases I do not condone media piracy a little healthy civil disobedience can be a good thing, if the laws are wrong.
This raises a far more interesting question. For reasons that have been stated the cinematic experience can not be recreated outside of the cinema and filmmakers, those who have the greatest reason to have that experience, are electing not to. As a casual consumer I can see turning to alternative forms of film viewing, but the serious filmmaker must have an understanding of the chosen medium. An understanding that can not be derived from casual consumption. And yet.... any ideas why a filmmaker as a consumer would not make the investment.
And may I suggest skipping the soda and popcorn. Movies are no more than three hours folks you wont starve...
. Also there is the matinée. Less folks, cheaper tickets. I call that win-win.Okay quick straw poll... and please answer YES or NO.
1. Have you ever copied a tape, LP. CD or MP3 that you didn't purchase?
2. Have you ever recorded a film or TV show to keep of Satalite, Cable or TV?
Again how is this giving the film maker his money
3. Have you ever watched DVD in a group of 4 or 5?
Yes? then you may have broken the law also.
Side Note : In the UK it is actually illegal to keep something you recorded off TV for over I think 48 hours.
If the answer YES then please tell me HOW this differes from buying a pirate DVD. Are musicians (who get a better cut of profits from CD's than film makers EVER do from DVD's) exempt from your moral highground?
1. Have you ever copied a tape, LP. CD or MP3 that you didn't purchase?
2. Have you ever recorded a film or TV show to keep of Satalite, Cable or TV?
Again how is this giving the film maker his money
3. Have you ever watched DVD in a group of 4 or 5?
Yes? then you may have broken the law also.
Side Note : In the UK it is actually illegal to keep something you recorded off TV for over I think 48 hours.
If the answer YES then please tell me HOW this differes from buying a pirate DVD. Are musicians (who get a better cut of profits from CD's than film makers EVER do from DVD's) exempt from your moral highground?
You got me there Phil, I'm a hypocrite. The only thing I would say though is that two wrongs don't make a right. To be honest I think that I really need to change my behaviour around music, something I've been considering for a while now for exactly this reason.
Yes of course I have, but the distribution company got paid by the TV company for the rights to show that film, and I paid my Sky subscription, so in reality money has changed hands.
There isn't anything that prevents me from showing the DVD to many people as I like, providing I don't do that in a public venue or for commercial reasons. Again, I've paid for the DVD and have certain rights as a result of that purchase.
Copyright laws are pretty international now, which is the reason that as a UK screenwriter the best way to establish the copyright of my script is to send it to the US Library of Congress. However, I agree that the actual concept of copyright is one that probably needs larger debate.
I'm still unsure about where I stand on the copyright issues, because I have split feelings about it. On the one hand I want to make a living by creating IP (Intellectual Property) in this case films/screenplays. To do this I need to know that I can turn my ideas into property and that the only people who have access to that property have to come to some kind of financial arrangement with me (In other words, if I make a film I want to be able to sell it). The copyright laws are the institiution that allow me to do that and without their protection I would never be able to send a new screeplay out to a production company because they could just steal it. In many repsects the copyright laws do a better job of protecting me against the large studios than the other way round, because they really, really don't want to get into litigation over a script.
On the other hand, as an artist I see the whole concept of IP as nonsense. There is part of me that would be quite happy to see "No Place" pirated all around the world, if it meant that people were enjoying it. If there was enough money coming in for me to live on comfortably I'd make films for nothing and give them away via P2P.
I think this is where the fulcrum of this argument lies: If you want to make a living from film making then you have to support copyright, because to not support is to say that all film should be free. If all films are going to be free, how do we pay the people who make them. Well in the UK the Arts Council provides grants of up to $70,000 for film makers to make films, but in my experience that then becomes censorship by committee. Personally I'd rather take my chances in the market than have a government quango decide whether I can put a film into production or not.
With that said, I think there is a larger debate to be had over whether conventional distribution via the industry is the route forward for indie film making. Any distribution method that gave the producer of film direct access to the people buying the films would have to be a good thing.
The problem with the current distribution system is that it favours the distributor over the film maker. The distributors go for easy to sell products, hence the proliferation of teen flicks (slasher horror, urbna junkie tales) and blockbusters. Anyone looking of something different is left with the art house cinema chains and it's a well documented fact that the costs of an art house cinema run can often wipe out the DVD profits of an indie film, turning a popular indie film into a fianacial loss.
Clive,
I guess my point is that whilst my original statement was bold I wanted to get peoples opinions on it. When people attack directly, taking teh moral high ground when they in fact are as guilty it annoys me. There are far too many hypocrites in this world and when people attack me for an opinion then go hone and watch the movie they downloaded or copies to their PSP or listern to tracks they never purchased on their Ipod but still lecture me on how evil I am for suggesting that people are driven to this...
Well needless to say this double standard annoys me. I never suggested piracy was right (and backed it up by saying that I also tend to buy the DVD's on release for the films i like) but like many things in this world is was an evil that people are driven to for reasons out of their control.
I guess my point is that whilst my original statement was bold I wanted to get peoples opinions on it. When people attack directly, taking teh moral high ground when they in fact are as guilty it annoys me. There are far too many hypocrites in this world and when people attack me for an opinion then go hone and watch the movie they downloaded or copies to their PSP or listern to tracks they never purchased on their Ipod but still lecture me on how evil I am for suggesting that people are driven to this...
Well needless to say this double standard annoys me. I never suggested piracy was right (and backed it up by saying that I also tend to buy the DVD's on release for the films i like) but like many things in this world is was an evil that people are driven to for reasons out of their control.
Wow, lots being said here. Figured I should add my 2 cents to the discussion:
Perhaps I am wrong, but it is my understanding that if I copy a dvd for personal use only and do not profit from it or publicly distribute it, I am breaking no law. The same thing goes for taping from TV (that's why DVR is so big here). And I can invite as many people as I want to see a movie privately as long as I don't profit from it.
It muddies the water, Phil to suggest that taping from TV in your home to watch later has anything to do with piracy. The airwaves are free to the public (if you are like me and have abjurred cable/satellite, etc.) so I cut no one's profit by recording at home. And when I did have satellite, I paid upwards of $80 a month for the priviledge, so I can do whatever I want with the content that was beamed to my home- as long as I don't profit from it.
Because I have a young daughter, I haven't spent much time at the cinema in the last seven years. I have wanted to many times, but because I respect the movie-going experience so much, I would not subject fellow patrons to a small child in the theater. Now that she is older, we can take her to some of the things that interest us (ie. Narnia, which really was quite lovely). I saw Kong with my husband on a 'date night'. We choose our cinema films often for spectacle- it we know it will suffer a lot on the small screen, we go to the movies. We often do the matinee and skip the snack bar completely- it is just an enourmous rip off. As stated somewhere above on the thread, it's not like you'll starve in a two hour film.
That said, I am such a regular Blockbuster patron that they know me by name. Late fees have been abolished there folks, in case you didn't know. You get a 1 week grace period from the due date (meaning a 1 week rental is actually 2 weeks), if you keep it after that, you can still get it back within 30 days and be charged a $1.25 restocking charge. (I should point out the penalty for the over due stuff is that they do charge your credit card for the movie purchase if you are more than a week late- they credit it back ASAP if you get it back in 30 days.) I know, they are a giant corp. too, but I live in a tiny burg in northern Ohio and my choices are between two chain stores. Also, they often have great deals on pre-viewed dvds that come with a 30 day money back guarantee- AND they have an exchange/trade-in policy too for credit on purchasing other films. What's not to like?
I do not and would not pirate dvd's or cd's. Sure, the system of studio filmmaking is as corrupt as any corporate entity (just look at R.R. Rebel Without A Crew and his discussion of union editors), but that doesn't make it O.K. to steal product from a vendor.
As to the 'personal nature' of some of the exchanges on this board... Phil, I have to believe you are trying to get a big, visceral reaction out of people. It's the only reason I can fathom that you post in provocative language. There's an old addage from my public speaking days, "If you don't get the audience reaction you expected, it's not the audience, it's the way you delivered the message." You have every right to vent your frustration with the "system", and others have every right to disagree.
OK, perhaps I gave more like $0.50 than 2- sorry for the long post.
Perhaps I am wrong, but it is my understanding that if I copy a dvd for personal use only and do not profit from it or publicly distribute it, I am breaking no law. The same thing goes for taping from TV (that's why DVR is so big here). And I can invite as many people as I want to see a movie privately as long as I don't profit from it.
It muddies the water, Phil to suggest that taping from TV in your home to watch later has anything to do with piracy. The airwaves are free to the public (if you are like me and have abjurred cable/satellite, etc.) so I cut no one's profit by recording at home. And when I did have satellite, I paid upwards of $80 a month for the priviledge, so I can do whatever I want with the content that was beamed to my home- as long as I don't profit from it.
Because I have a young daughter, I haven't spent much time at the cinema in the last seven years. I have wanted to many times, but because I respect the movie-going experience so much, I would not subject fellow patrons to a small child in the theater. Now that she is older, we can take her to some of the things that interest us (ie. Narnia, which really was quite lovely). I saw Kong with my husband on a 'date night'. We choose our cinema films often for spectacle- it we know it will suffer a lot on the small screen, we go to the movies. We often do the matinee and skip the snack bar completely- it is just an enourmous rip off. As stated somewhere above on the thread, it's not like you'll starve in a two hour film.
That said, I am such a regular Blockbuster patron that they know me by name. Late fees have been abolished there folks, in case you didn't know. You get a 1 week grace period from the due date (meaning a 1 week rental is actually 2 weeks), if you keep it after that, you can still get it back within 30 days and be charged a $1.25 restocking charge. (I should point out the penalty for the over due stuff is that they do charge your credit card for the movie purchase if you are more than a week late- they credit it back ASAP if you get it back in 30 days.) I know, they are a giant corp. too, but I live in a tiny burg in northern Ohio and my choices are between two chain stores. Also, they often have great deals on pre-viewed dvds that come with a 30 day money back guarantee- AND they have an exchange/trade-in policy too for credit on purchasing other films. What's not to like?
I do not and would not pirate dvd's or cd's. Sure, the system of studio filmmaking is as corrupt as any corporate entity (just look at R.R. Rebel Without A Crew and his discussion of union editors), but that doesn't make it O.K. to steal product from a vendor.
As to the 'personal nature' of some of the exchanges on this board... Phil, I have to believe you are trying to get a big, visceral reaction out of people. It's the only reason I can fathom that you post in provocative language. There's an old addage from my public speaking days, "If you don't get the audience reaction you expected, it's not the audience, it's the way you delivered the message." You have every right to vent your frustration with the "system", and others have every right to disagree.
OK, perhaps I gave more like $0.50 than 2- sorry for the long post.
Lilith said:Wow, lots being said here. Figured I should add my 2 cents to the discussion:
As to the 'personal nature' of some of the exchanges on this board... Phil, I have to believe you are trying to get a big, visceral reaction out of people. It's the only reason I can fathom that you post in provocative language. There's an old addage from my public speaking days, "If you don't get the audience reaction you expected, it's not the audience, it's the way you delivered the message." You have every right to vent your frustration with the "system", and others have every right to disagree.
OK, perhaps I gave more like $0.50 than 2- sorry for the long post.
Far from it. I just wanted to float an idea why pirate DVD was taking off so much. Why people are willing to break the law. It's happening and there must be a reason beyond people being tight.
What baffles me is that people can't seperate an discussion from personal opinion. That's what baffles me. Whilst i agree in part I am evil, I feel I'm being called the sporn of satan by (and yes here comes the generilastion) people who themslves preach double standards.
Most pople here have copied CD's but then take moral high ground on DVD like there is a difference. When there isn't (not to mention DVD to PSP which is still a breach of (c))
As for me I have been a cinema patron for years and used to watch upwards to 75 films a year on the big screen. I used tos tay up and watch the Oscars live and I used to enjoy the cinema over everything else. But I've been driven out and forced away. I didn't choose this it happened.
So to see recent films i, on ocasion, will buy a pirate. if I like the film I'll buy it on DVD. Maybe even rent it too.
But don't tell me I'm taking food off peoples tables. I have two releatives that work in film (one construction one FX). They gat paid more in one day than I make in a week. They are doing fine and happy. These tecnicicans, the real skilled people behind the scenes, make their money as do most others. When I watch a pirate copy of War of The Worlds I know in my heart of hearts that buying this copy will not make poor Timmy the Admin guy out of a job. As poor timmy the admin guy makes trebble what I do.
Does it make it right? No. DO I feel bad denying share holders of multi national corporations an extar 0.003 cents on their next dividend? No.
Will piracy kill cinema. No. Do Pirates always fund child porn or terrorism? No. Do we believe everything we hear in the media... well evidently yes.
As for TV and copying. (I speak from a UK pov). It is never acceptable from a legal POV to copy a DVD or CD for personnal use. It is also not permisable under (c) laws to screen to an audiance (which I believe is over 5) and it wasnt (although I'm unsure how this stands now) legal to copy or record from TV and keep that on tape/disk for longer than 24 hours. Up to a few years ago it was considered a breach of law to copy a cd that you own even if you keep that yourself.