Talent, etc.

Well the way I've dealt with the question is by working really hard at finding jobs. If you're not prepared to do that then it will probably end up being a hobby for you. Self marketing was well outside my comfort zone but I really wanted to make a living doing the thing I love. Nothing like the feeling of hunger to motivate action. I suggest you work really hard at marketing and if after a year you are not noticing a difference then at least you'll know you tried. Plenty of more talented people than me who it became a hobby for and every person I know who earns a living from music treats it like a business.
 
When you throw in the towel depends on what you want out of life. Do you want a big house and 2.5 kids and a dog? You're going to need a steady paycheck, so yeah, you might want to put the time and effort into a career. Do you want to act or die? Living out a dumpster can be fine (much harder to do that as a composer, of course!)

For me, all I want out of life is to make music. I have a dayjob, and I always have, but it's definitely a job not a career. I never take it home with me (in fact, I quit a more lucrative programming career years ago because of that). It pays my bills. If I never make it because I'm not good enough, or don't promote myself well enough, I won't be unhappy. I'm doing what I love, and people are listening to my work. I'm improving myself every day, and learning where my weaknesses are and what I need to learn (as mentioned, promotion).

Is that right for you? I can't say; I'm not you. I don't want to work a day job, but if I have to my whole life, I'm okay with that. And bear in mind the root of the word amateur is "lover of"...not a bad label to wear! People with less ability than you or I have made it. People with more have not. I guess the point I'm trying to get to is be happy with where you are, and then you won't need to worry about when to quit.

Gah, all this touchy-feely optimisim is making me nauseous ;-)
 
Jamster said:
Josh: 'I don't really believe in "talent"' :huh:

Did you say that with a straight face, or are you 'Joshing' us? :rolleyes:
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Half serious, I guess. Talent implies a natural inherent ability (and there are people like that, world class pianists at the age of 6) just as there are extreme outliers in the opposite direction (people who could spend thousands of hours trying to get out a passable "mary had a little lamb"). Most people are in the middle, which is to say, you can learn just about anything if you put the work in.

Perhaps a better way to say what I mean is "don't think about talent". Put the work in. You want to play guitar? Out to the woodshed with you until you can (and you CAN). You want to be a world class photographer? Do the work; take and study photos, learn the technical and aesthetical theories and techniques.

I'm proud of how far I've come and the work that I've done. I've earned every callous and scar, and I like to believe that I got them due to my willingness to work, not due to any natural ability (I remember the first day I properly strummed a guitar chord and it just clicked; and a hundred thousand little milestones like that). Even if people do not mean to be dismissive of that, I sometimes feel that way when they talk about "talent".

And as an aside, I always appreciate a bad joke :-)
 
There's a reason most successful filmmakers, musicians, artists, etc.. are raging egomaniacs (I'll admit it, I'm not scared). It's because you have to believe in the face of all the odds, through all the failures, through all the disappointments, that you WILL succeed. That you are a genius, that you have that thing that very few have that will make you a success,. Otherwise you'll get crushed under all the failure.
 
Gonzo_Entertainment said:
There's a reason most successful filmmakers, musicians, artists, etc.. are raging egomaniacs (I'll admit it, I'm not scared). It's because you have to believe in the face of all the odds, through all the failures, through all the disappointments, that you WILL succeed. That you are a genius, that you have that thing that very few have that will make you a success,. Otherwise you'll get crushed under all the failure.
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This is exactly why I think I still have a chance with Alyssa Milano. ;)
 
Gonzo_Entertainment said:
There's a reason most successful filmmakers, musicians, artists, etc.. are raging egomaniacs (I'll admit it, I'm not scared). It's because you have to believe in the face of all the odds, through all the failures, through all the disappointments, that you WILL succeed. That you are a genius, that you have that thing that very few have that will make you a success,. Otherwise you'll get crushed under all the failure.
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Bingo

No one who was rational or reasonable about the percentile chances of making it in the entertainment industry could justify even a few years towards this.

I nearly became homeless en route to these 5k a week corporate jobs.

Look at a picture of David Lee Roth and ask yourself, did this guy put together an excel spreadsheet charting his future career

On a serious note, Micheal Allen's advice is the best. You have to consider getting a job in music or art as a job itself. I never got paid a dime for art untill I started waking up at 8 am ever morning and working for 12 hours every day. In fact it was 3 years after I started that regimen before I got my first pro paycheck

Wanting to sell art never did it for me, but 60 hours a week did!

Also, I agree with jamster, there really is no talent, outside of brain irregularities like autism. What people call talent is a combination of intelligence, focus, energy, and work ethic
 
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That's what I tend to believe - that it requires a certain amount of psychosis.

I also think I agree about there not being innate talent.. sort of..

I was a nervous kid so I'd always tap on things.. school desks, my legs, my friends, etc. Eventually I took up drumming. So I've kind of got a natural sense of rhythm that a lot of people don't.

To get where I am musically (well, at least rhythmically) a lot of people would have to put in some time - doing the work.

Something I didn't develop naturally was the ability to sell myself. (I don't have a 9-5 job, I do yard maintenance and I fix computers - both of which are cases in which my work sells me. That's kind of how bad I am at it.) Where as someone else might be naturally disposed to that, I'd have to put quite a bit more work into it.

When people say you have to work at it, I can't help but think work is different for everyone.
for instance, I lost 80lbs body weight a couple of years ago.. I guarantee it was more difficult to go from 230lbs to 150lbs than it is for anyone who's been skinny all of their lives and naturally has healthy habbits to maintain 150lbs..

Not to say that anyone has a free ride.. (well, some people do) but I tend to think that has something to do with "success". Possibly what "talent" IS.. it's the ease with which you're able to do certain things..

It's certainly more impressive when someone who's not naturally inclined to do certain things does it anyway.. Everyone loves a good underdog story.. (and in a way I think we ALL view our lives as underdog stories.. we all like to believe that we earn what we have fighting tooth and nail.) but..

I think I mentioned in another thread how much I loved "Moon" and Duncon Jones. How the guy had a great idea and was given half a chance and he made it work.. and then I found out he's David Bowie's son. I find it hard to believe that that didn't have something to do with it.
That's not to say that it was made easy for him.. The work is still there, but the work, I'm sure, is considerably easier when you've got certain foundations.. (even if those foundations are just a familiarity with creative people and/or people with money willing to spend on creative people..)

Just to say that "talent" is when certain things come easier than they do to most.. Whether that talent is earned or you just got lucky in that life shaped you that way.. (I certainly didn't make any choices as an eight year old to practice my rhythm skills constantly)


hrm..
 
Good post dude,

I have good reasons for bashing the word "talent"

I used to teach guitar lessons to get by. These kids would come in with their guitar and learn for a week or two. 2/3 or so would quickly come to the conclusion that they didn't have the "talent" to learn guitar. "I'll just quit, I don't have this kind of talent"

I ask them, did you study, did you practice, how many hours. They say, "no, I just didn't feel like I had the talent to do that"

So saying someone has more talent than you has become code for, "I'm making an excuse not to try my hardest"

I don't like that.

If a guy is born 7' tall, they say he is talented at basketball. If anything, that person is less talented than others at basketball. But I'm kind of agreeing with you about what people think it means.

You don't have talents, you make them.

The one real talent is self-discipline

I also say it doesn't exist because people are always calling me talented, and I'm not, I'm just a hard worker that keeps their mind focused
 
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