Still don't understand ISO and ASA. Newbie feels stupid.

[msp1518]

I feel really stupid and old here. I still do not get ISO and ASA and how to set everything with my Canon Auto Zoom 814.

I was hoping to shoot this weekend, but may hold off because I am more confused than ever and this is after at least 30 hours of research, including three books on Super 8. It seems everything I read is for people who already know and understand what ISO and ASA are and how to deal with them.

Well I don't and it's demoralizing.

I have my Canon. I have a cartridge of film from Pro8mm (Kodak's Vision 2 500T color negative) that is labeled 60 ASA 500. It's loaded into my camera. Now what?

Turning the camera on and pressing the trigger slightly, the light meter visible via the eye piece gives me a readout:
1.4 2 2.8 4 5.6 * 11 *** 32

Red bars are on either side.

Mostly, being in or out doors the needle is pretty much either too far to the left (not enough light) or too far to the right (too much light).

There is a button for the manual Aperture Control Ring that I can pull out and use to adjust that needle and put it where I want it to go. of course, i don't know and I am unsure of how any of this is related to ASA or ISO.

God I feel so hopelessly lost. I can take my computer apart and put it back together again, but I am stumped with film. When i did my short ten years ago I relied on my DP. I really don't have any useable knowledge.

Please forgive this newbie and help me figure this out. If I can understand these basics, I'll have the blueprint to learn and understand.

I also have a roll of Kodak Ektachrome 100D Color Reversal Film 7285.

 

[gpforet]

The ISO or ASA describe the film speed. That is to say, how sensitive the film is to light. The lower the number, the less the sensitivity.

From what you are describing, it sounds like your camera has thru the lens light metering. That's good. All you have to do is find out on the camera where you set the film speed. You set this to whatever film is loaded in the camera. That way, the light meter is calibrated to the film speed.

So, once all that is done. The meter will tell you the aperature setting to use given the current light condition. Compose your shot, check the meter, and set the aperature that's indicated.

Understand that aperature settings effect DOF, so keep this in mind when deciding when to use additional lighting.

Most of these topics are covered in a basic photography book or class. Far too many think they can shoot film, or video, without knowing the principles of photography. Things like framing, composition, exposure (what you're having trouble with), Depth of Field, angular distortion (the picture will look different when shooting with a 100mm lens at a certain distance than using a 50mm lens at half the distance).

If you don't understand these principles, I highly suggesting taking some time to learn them before attempting to put the pictures into motion.

I feel really stupid and old here. I still do not get ISO and ASA and how to set everything with my Canon Auto Zoom 814.

I was hoping to shoot this weekend, but may hold off because I am more confused than ever and this is after at least 30 hours of research, including three books on Super 8. It seems everything I read is for people who already know and understand what ISO and ASA are and how to deal with them.

Well I don't and it's demoralizing.

I have my Canon. I have a cartridge of film from Pro8mm (Kodak's Vision 2 500T color negative) that is labeled 60 ASA 500. It's loaded into my camera. Now what?

Turning the camera on and pressing the trigger slightly, the light meter visible via the eye piece gives me a readout:
1.4 2 2.8 4 5.6 * 11 *** 32

Red bars are on either side.

Mostly, being in or out doors the needle is pretty much either too far to the left (not enough light) or too far to the right (too much light).

There is a button for the manual Aperture Control Ring that I can pull out and use to adjust that needle and put it where I want it to go. of course, i don't know and I am unsure of how any of this is related to ASA or ISO.

God I feel so hopelessly lost. I can take my computer apart and put it back together again, but I am stumped with film. When i did my short ten years ago I relied on my DP. I really don't have any useable knowledge.

Please forgive this newbie and help me figure this out. If I can understand these basics, I'll have the blueprint to learn and understand.

I also have a roll of Kodak Ektachrome 100D Color Reversal Film 7285.

 

[IndieBudget]

The meter on the cam is only for certain speed films. Odds are that the 814 does not have a setting for 500 speed film. You need a light meter. You can get a cheapo one off ebay for a few bux. I've got an old Russian one from back in the day. Your aperture setting is based on available light and the film speed. You might need some ND filters if it is very bright out or really shut down on the aperture.

If I remember correctly, you set your hand held light meter to 500 ISO or ASA ( they are the "same thing " ) , point it at somethimg "middle grey" that you are shooting and read what f-stop setting it points to and viola ! you are set.







.

 

[msp1518]

More questions

The ISO or ASA describe the film speed. That is to say, how sensitive the film is to light. The lower the number, the less the sensitivity.

From what you are describing, it sounds like your camera has thru the lens light metering. That's good. All you have to do is find out on the camera where you set the film speed. You set this to whatever film is loaded in the camera. That way, the light meter is calibrated to the film speed.

So, once all that is done. The meter will tell you the aperature setting to use given the current light condition. Compose your shot, check the meter, and set the aperature that's indicated.

Understand that aperature settings effect DOF, so keep this in mind when deciding when to use additional lighting.

The basics, such as framing a shot, where to place the camera, how to move it, etc. are not a problem for me. It's the actual basics behind the workings of photography. To try and explain, it's like I know my ABC's up to Z, but without A and B.

My camera is pictured below, so my confusion is, how to set the film speed (in case anyone think's I'm 100% clueless, I understand frames per second is not film speed) on my camera and then, how do I set the apeture. I've read the manual ten times and still can't figure that out.

If I am right, film speed is automatic on my camera based upon the cartridge, but they did not have speeds this fast in the 1960's, so my camera will do what? Relevant page from manual at bottom. ASA 250 looks to be the highest listed. So how to handle the ASA 500 I have? I have two rolls and don't want to end up with pictures of nothing. No doubt I messed up buying these rolls. My bad. Should have stuck with the recommended Ektachrome 100D.

Now if I need a light meter, which kind? eBay has Flash, Spot, Color and other listed. Many are over a hundred and I don't have that kind cash right now. No way. Knowing I should just stick to film with speeds my camera understands, I'd like to avoid spending the money.

Last question... How about a recommendation on a good BASICS of photography that will teach me what I clearly need to know. The books that were recommended to me so far have not done the trick. They all seem to be written for people who have basic beginner's knowledge.

 

[Zensteve]

Yup, you have a few things to watch out for:

Does the camera actually recognise the film cartridge? This is done with the notches on the cartridge that fit the pins inside the chamber. Not only did the notches & pins identify the speed of the film, but also what it was balanced for - Daylight or Tungsten - and whether the internal orange filter needed to be automatically moved in or out of position.

Don't assume that newly-manufactured cartridges for older speeds will have correct notches, btw, especially with custom loads. Your camera's owner manual ought to have a list of speeds it recognises. If it wasn't on the original list, you'll need to make some adjustments.

There are conversion charts available to help correct erroneous notch readings. This is usually a change + or - on the F-stop, via filters or aperture. If you're more Macguyverish, you can even make your own notches in certain situations.

Automatic settings also rely on the internal "electronic eye" still being accurate after 30-40 years; your mileage may vary quite a bit. Electronic/digital lightmeters start off kinda pricey. I have a neat analogue one (complete with needle-pointer) that was quite inexpensive. (Tundra D-3B - It was $70 brand-new. Used one's much cheaper)

You can use ISO & ASA interchangeably, btw. In practise, no difference.

 

[IndieBudget]

You can get some ND filters cheap and cut down on the light that is coming into the cam. Search for how many stops a particular filter cuts down. The 814 handles up to 250 and you bought 500 .. No big problem for now. You will have extra latitude for shooting in darker settings.

Since the cam will NOT read the notch correctly and give you the correct aperture settings, you will need a meter. mkae sure the meter will read for 500 speed film. Most will, but I would check for sure anyhoo.

On ebay search for "light meter movie" and there are many available, but also there are some super 8 forums around and some other forums that deal exclusively w/ film and I know you are not the first to ask this, so look and you will find.

Relax, learn and when you have this figured out. It will be an investment. HOWEVER if you are like me, you want it NOW !! When you do shoot, play with the settings and take notes. example ........shot plant, meter indicated f11, shot at f - whatever, used ND filter yadda yadda. NEXT shot - rubber ball, settings, meter etc.. note light conditions etc. you will have lots of flexibility w/ film compared to digital. I think it is better to under expose rather than over .. but don't quote me on that. Look it up


I actually had an 814 once, but never shot with it, I did shoot w/ an 8mm Bolex cam though and it worked out. It's been a while so Im rusty.





.

 

[msp1518]

Okay, I guess right now by biggest ??? is how to use a light meter and apply what it tells me to the camera. I'm not making the connection as far as, what do I actually adjust on the camera and what. It's amazing how YouTube seems to have every kind of video explaining every kind of thing in the world, but i can't find any videos on how to use a light meter with a camera. i must be using the wrong search words.

I'm really thinking I need to hold off shooting for weeks and try and learn more. My head feels like it is going to explode.

One question I have is, if the notches are not correct and therefore the camera isn't reading it correctly, how do i tell what the camera is doing with the cartridge now loaded?

And I hate to say it, but looking at filters, i am clueless. I was on B&H Photo's website and had no clue what to look for. I believe i am supposed to be looking at Neutral Density filters? But how can I find filters for Super 8 cameras?

I just ordered Photography for Dummies. I am so in over my head here that the more I learn and read, the more confused I am becoming. Maybe I should have stuck with the camcorder.

 

[Zensteve]

if the notches are not correct and therefore the camera isn't reading it correctly, how do i tell what the camera is doing with the cartridge now loaded?

If you have it set to automatic, you can't tell.

If you set it manually, the notches & pins don't matter for exposure & speed (though the notches will still activate the CC filter, pretty sure, on an 814)

For your basic lightmeter, you only need to worry about 3 numbers:

ASA
F-stop
Meter reading

Dial in any two of those numbers, and the meter will give you the third.

 

[Zensteve]

Maybe I should have stuck with the camcorder.

Just think how much better your camcorder shots will look, after you can properly light your shots.

 

[IndieBudget]

And I hate to say it, but looking at filters, i am clueless. I was on B&H Photo's website and had no clue what to look for. I believe i am supposed to be looking at Neutral Density filters? But how can I find filters for Super 8 cameras?

.

The ND filters are a suggestion.. not a requirement. they will help you only if the light is too bright for the film you have OR you want to set the f-stop at a setting that allow you a greater depth of field and if it would allow too much light in, the film would be over exposed. Add on a ND filter to block some of the light and problem solved. this is slightly advanced, HOWEVER as an aspiring shooter film or digital you need to know this. ALSO ND filters are the same, all you need to do is have a size that would screw onto the lens. maybe 58mm , BUT DO NOT QUOTE ME on the size.

I just bougt a 72mm ND & Polarizer filter sets for my T2i. the kit lens is 52mm and some prime lenses go up to 62mm at least, I went ahead and got the 72mm sets and bought a full complement of step up rings so I only needed 1 set of filters. You might want to keep that in mind if you have a DSLR or whatever cam you have.

Yes, take your time and hold off shooting, there are other boards just for film, look for them and ask q's there


The below was shot w/ an 814 using 500t
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/721752/july_24_2006_santiago_de_compostela_spain/




.

 

[msp1518]

My wife wants to go into the city tomorrow and shoot where all the Christmas stuff is up at Rockefeller Center. I know she's annoyed I have had the two Canons for over a month without shooting a frame. I'm annoyed too, of course, but she keeps telling me I "think too much" and maybe she is right.

Perhaps I should just get the second Canon and load it with the Kodak roll, which is more to my camera's liking and just wing it based upon what I know. If I wasted $17 plus $14 for development, oh well. As long as I take detailed notes for each shot, I will later know what I did right and what I did wrong.

That 500 speed film can obviously do amazing things at night,. That footage linked above is really impressive. I definitely want to wait until I know how to shoot with it because I'd love to have some night shots. But I gotta do it before Christmas. I want to hit Rockefeller Center. Obviously I will need a light meter.

What do you guys think of this old baby as far as light meters go?....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160510133651#ht_2409wt_814

 

[IndieBudget]

Funny, I looked at the SAME meter on ebay.. I think that baby should work just fine. Im thinking if you shoot w/ the film at night, Open up the aperture to f 1.4 and ler er rip, play w/ a few other settings too, like 2.0 & 5.6 etc...

have fun !

 

[directorik]

As you are finding out, there is a longer learning curve when
using film then when shooting on video. Film is a professionals
medium and super 8 cameras were specifically made to reduce the
learning curve. Thus the notches and automatic settings.

You have now loaded professional film stock into a camera designed
to shoot “amateur” film stock. So you need to know more about
these things then a super 8 user in 1978. Your wife is going to
continue to be annoyed.

Since the highest ASA your camera’s light meter can read is ASA
400 and you are using 500, the internal light meter is not giving
you an accurate reading. I don’t know right off what the F-stop
adjustment is going to be, but I suspect at least 2 full stops.

Assume the camera thinks it’s shooting Tungsten 400. Make sure the
daylight filter is out. Aim the camera and roll a few feet. Then
adjust your exposure minus 1 stop and roll, then minus 2 stops and
roll. It couldn’t hurt to adjust in half stops and use the entire
cartridge. You should try it with the daylight filter in and
assume the camera thinks it’s shooting ASA 250. Everything will go
orange, but it’s worth trying so you can see for yourself.

Then when you get the footage back you will know how many stops
you have to adjust when using the camera’s internal light meter.
It will also help when you are using a light meter in the future
because you will know how the camera’s automatic film speed
adjuster is working.

For the time being don’t consider filters. The built in filter is
there to distinguish between the two types of film loaded into
cartridges when that camera was made - daylight and tungsten. You
will not use the “daylight” filter when using the Vision 2 stock.
And the Ektachrome is a tungsten balanced stock.

As you now know you should be using the Vision 2 stock until you
are very familiar with who the camera is reading it. The
Ektachrome cartridges are notched correctly.

 

[David.rhsc]

Since the highest ASA your camera’s light meter can read is ASA
400 and you are using 500, the internal light meter is not giving
you an accurate reading. I don’t know right off what the F-stop
adjustment is going to be, but I suspect at least 2 full stops.

IIRC 400 to 800 is 1 stop. 500 should be 1/3 of a stop faster than 400.

I'd say just take the things out and shoot with wifey. Let the camera think that it is shooting 400T, and use the manual exposure control to adjust for the difference - or don't. 1/3 over on film isn't going to kill you, or is this reversal? Crap. I can never remember. I want to say you have some latitude in going over, much more than you might be used to in video. I could also have that backwards.

Chances are that ...

1: The internal meter is going to be off anyway, so the only way to know is to test.
2: Any used meter you buy might be slightly off too, so the only way to know is to test.

Camera + Wife + Holiday Shopping + Great Location + Film == excellent way to test. Just try to take notes. I always forget to take notes.

 

[IndieBudget]

Although there is no telling what the notch on the 500t will make the cam do. however, only 1 way to find out huh ?

 

[msp1518]

For the Pro8mm film... The plastic part that would be there to tell the camera what the film is has been removed. So it won't tell the camera anything at all, at least I think that is what will happen. I may shoot one roll this evening and just take detailed notes, that way when I get the footage back, I can check and see what worked and what didn't.

Yesterday I shot the Ektachrome roll. It was actually super (pardon the pun) fun to do and I was amazed at how many people, folks my age or older, would be looking at me with the funny look of, 'what the hell, is that a Super 8 camera?' A few guys actually stopped and asked me if I was shooting Super 8.

 

[chilipie]

1/3 over on film isn't going to kill you, or is this reversal? Crap. I can never remember. I want to say you have some latitude in going over, much more than you might be used to in video. I could also have that backwards.

I'd learnt it as it's best to go over on film, under on video… remember reading in AC magazine about flashing film before use to bring out details in the shadows that wouldn't have been there otherwise - just enough light to get the grains to react.

 

[David.rhsc]

Excellent, can't wait to hear how the tests turned out.

Thanks for the confirmation Chili!

 

[msp1518]

I shot the Ektochrome and have it back from Pac Pam in NYC, but no way to project it. Working on that now. Hope to have a projector by next week. I will hold off on transferring until I know what the heck my stuff looks like.

Too darned nervous to shoot the pro8mm film i bought. I'm too ignorant at this point.