Sound is 50% of the movie?!

Then why aren't there any producers who think audio first?!

Every. Single. Film. Producer. Ever. Comes from the visual side of storytelling. Where are the audio storytellers? Why are the people who are good at audio complacent with taking orders from someone who mostly sees visuals?

Anybody wanna be the first? Are you an audio person who has not just technical skills but a desire to take creative control? Wanna make something great? Hit me up.
 
I am an amateur audio guy and would be glad to answer any questions you may have.

Haha! I appreciate the offer, sincerely. But I can't trust myself to handle audio on my next project. Either I'm going to have to pay a professional to work their craft, or I gotta partner-up with somebody. I'm hoping for the latter, not just because it would be easier on my wallet, but because I think it'd result in a better film. :D
 
I'll have to tell it sometime.

I read lots of Alcove and AudioExperts posts, they are total pros. Get them to help you!
 
No. Just not true.

Name one exception. I don't wanna hear about directors like Tarantino who make sure that their sound-design is the best. I want a list of producers who put sound at the top of their priorities. Name one. You can't.

Who's ready to be a trail-blazer?! Anybody wanna be the first producer who looked at film first from the audio side?
 
I don't mean to get into an argument, Sweetie. I'm just hoping to recruit an audio-person who maybe might want to step their game up.
 
Every. Single. Film. Producer. Ever. Comes from the visual side of storytelling.

No they don't.

Where are the audio storytellers?

Not sure, where do Spielberg, Cameron, Scott, Jackson, Nolan, Coppola and all the others, live?

Why are the people who are good at audio complacent with taking orders from someone who mostly sees visuals?

Unless we're the ones financing the films, we all have to take orders to some degree. Given the choice, I'd of course prefer to take orders from an actual filmmaker, rather than just a visuals maker.

Anybody wanna be the first? Are you an audio person who has not just technical skills but a desire to take creative control? Wanna make something great? Hit me up.

There's a couple of fairly obvious difficulties:

1. An audio person taking creative control would be a bad idea, just as bad an idea as a visuals person taking creative control. Either way, you wouldn't make something "great", you'd probably only make something mediocre. Either visual centric or audio centric, rather than "great" which is the marriage of the two.

2. Actually they wouldn't be the first, it's been done.

On the other hand: Filmmaking is all about overcoming difficulties and I like your pitch by the way. Feigning ignorance to goad an audio person into taking the bait, not sure I can remember seeing that approach before, which after more than 20 years in the biz is unusual. Just the fact that you can simultaneously think: Rationally, outside the box and in terms of film not just being a visual medium indicates real potential as a filmmaker and is therefore enticing.

A word of advice though; I wouldn't offer creative "control", maybe significant influence but not control. Let me give you an example: I'm currently working with an experienced producer who has an excellent script, a script which has already been slightly changed on my advice. A major part of the 7 figure funding has already been acquired and the rest seems very likely. When pre-pro starts I will spend many days with the producer, director and cinematographer working on the shot list. Chances are that I'll capture a few things and provide some advise during filming and then my opinion will be sought after the assembly edit. This is a collaborative role though, where I have considerable influence but not control. I know a great deal about sound and I have a lot of knowledge/experience of how sound and images can work together to create a sum better than it's parts but I don't know more (or anywhere near as much) about cinematography than an equivalently experienced cinematographer. Or about directing actors or about a range of other film crafts. Maybe I can make a shot, angle or lighting suggestion which will aid the use/marriage of sound and image but it needs a cinematographer to suggest how that can work in practice, to shoot down my suggestion if it can't work and/or to come up with a better idea and it needs a director to arbitrate and be in charge/control. Same with me and the pic editor and even the same in actual audio post, where sometimes I might not see the wood for the trees, being so intimately involved with the creation of the audio. Even to take this influential role (an actual Sound Designer) requires significant filmmaking knowledge/experience beyond just advanced technical and creative audio abilities and finding that with a tiny/no budget will be challenging in the least.

I can't guarantee the time your project will require without remuneration. So despite your approach being enticing, I will have to decline. However, I do definitely want to encourage you, both as an original thinker and as a filmmaker actually thinking about film (rather than just visuals). So PLEASE, feel free to contact me if you require any advice or even some actual physical help (some audio editing or mixing for example). If I haven't got the time to help, the worst I'll do is say "sorry I'm snowed under" but maybe I will have time to help or if not, at least hopefully make some helpful suggestion/s.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress!

G
 
There he is! I truly appreciate the thoughtful response, APE. Thanks!

I'm not feigning ignorance. If I'm ignorant, than I'm just ignorant, haha. Dude, you can't really think that Spielberg, Cameron, et all, are coming at this from an audio-perspective first. Yeah, they get it. Each director you listed is one who's films are creative as shit, from an audio perspective.

But if you think any one of them is a sound guy, you're living in fantasy world. Each one of them is a visual director who was smart enough to learn how to make audio an important component in their films. That's what I'm trying to do.

Instead of trying to master it myself, instead of trying to pay somebody to work their craft, how about I offer the credit and responsibility of co-producer? "Rage of the Fire" is going to be BADDASS, and I could really use a partner who knows how to use a microphone.
 
This is a sincere offer. I just started writing the screenplay. But I am far enough along to recognize that I need a co-producer. I'm hoping said co-producer might know how to work a mic.
 
I want a list of producers who put sound at the top of their priorities. Name one. You can't.

I cannot. They don't. Just like they don't put visuals first. Can you name a single successful producer who puts the visuals first?

The good producers put stories, talent and money as their top priorities. Stories drive the talent. Talent drives more talent, which drives the money.

Producers who put audio at the top of their priority will fail as much as those who put a Red camera as their top priority.

You may find directors tend to focus on the visuals more. Some get involved with the audio and some directors will leave it to others. Most of the greats understand the importance that all elements of filmmaking are important. For example, production design.

I don't mean to get into an argument, Sweetie.

No argument. I don't need to get into an argument to tell people they're wrong ;)
 
I cannot. They don't. Just like they don't put visuals first. Can you name a single successful producer who puts the visuals first?

All of them! How about Michael Bay? Can we at least agree that Michael Bay is primarily a visual filmmaker?

Just think of yourself. It's not that you don't care about audio. But what aspect of this art first attracted you? I'm guessing it was the visuals. Because that would make you a perfectly normal filmmaker. Filmmakers see visuals first. We have to learn to hear the soundscape. This is true not just for you and I, but also Spielberg, Cameron, etc.

I don't believe there has ever been a producer of a major film who came at it from an audio side first. Could be an interesting thing. Hit me up!
 
Dude, you can't really think that Spielberg, Cameron, et all, are coming at this from an audio-perspective first.

"First"? On occasion, possibly but generally I would say "at the same time" and of equal priority, along the lines sweetie has stated.

But if you think any one of them is a sound guy, you're living in fantasy world.

I'll live in that fantasy world and at the least I'll have James Cameron to keep me company. James Cameron does in fact do some of the physical sound editing on his films, although by all accounts, relatively little of his sound work actually ends up in the finished product. I'd have Orson Welles and a few others for company as well but they'd be a too little stinky to still be good company :)

Whether they started in visuals or audio or, if they started in visuals and learned audio, it doesn't really matter at the end of the day. What matters is that they know how to use sound and plan and design their films for sound (and visuals together of course). That really is one of the defining features of the great directors, the two (sound and visuals) are not different things, they are one thing, film. Those who are not great, virtually always see them as separate; do the visuals, then add the sound.

Instead of trying to master it myself, instead of trying to pay somebody to work their craft, how about I offer the credit and responsibility of co-producer? "Rage of the Fire" is going to be BADDASS, and I could really use a partner who knows how to use a microphone.

I can't speak for others but that's not attractive to me or rather, it's not attractive enough! I do this for a living and I'm not rich enough to continue to live and to pay all my business expenses for several months with no income. Well, maybe I am, just about but as my family relies on me, it's not a risk I'm willing to consider.

G
 
Out of curiosity, have any audio professionals made the successful transition to directing? I can think of examples for most other crew positions, but not sound (although I'm certain there must be some!).
 
Wow. Just wow. Sorry but I have to jump in here:

Sweetie:

Hurt Locker...? Who was the first person hired on the crew beyond the Director/Producer? The "audio guy".

What film won the Oscar that year OVER Avatar? Well, that doesn't REALLY mean that much, BUT: I at least have this point to argue:

The Hurt Locker was shot in the middle of a country very close to the hot spots of military action during some heavy conflicts. The actors were a) working all day in an American military costume that could at any moment be mistaken as the real thing and assulted and b) wearing 100+ pounds of bomb suit in extremely hot/dry weather. This prompted some very good pre-production and forsight on the part of the Director/Producer to hire a TOP TOP TOP production sound mixer, and sound designer and re-recording mixer. These two complete professionals overcame all obstacles to capture the original dialogue on set, and having done so, they preserved the original performance from each of the actors that had a certain aspect of fear, fatigue, and roughness due to a) and b) above. They even had to re-create the bomb suit helmet out of something other than lead so the radio mics they were using could transmit properly to be recorded. Later on, the post production process called for some lines to be ADRed, and when Jeremy Renner came into the air-conditioned studio with his donught and latte in pajamas, they could not recreate the gruff, dust-worn voice they recorded on set. Thus, only one or two lines from the entire movie were overdubbed, and the original recordings from the set were done so well that they were able to, like I said, preserve the original performance. Otherwise, with all of the dialogue overdubbed, it would have just been another blase summer action flick.

Because they were able to do this and keep the amazing job done by Renner from the set, this is my theory of why the Oscar went to Locker over Avatar. When everyone was poo-pooing Hurt Locker because it "stole" the Oscar over their beloved CG and visual masterpiece, I was glad to see that the relatively smaller audio crew from Locker pulled off some miracles to add to the impact of that film.

AudioPostExpert - I LOVE how you mention you get to alter scripts and input ideas in the shot-list and scripting and preliminary process. ALL TOO OFTEN it is the standard operating basis for a director to FINISH EDITING HIS FILM and only THEN think about sound. It irks me to no end. NO - THAT'S NOT HOW THE BIG-NAME PRODUCER/DIRECTORS DO IT. It's exactly along the lines of what Mr. Randy Thom states about Designing a Film for Sound. Get in there early - use sound as a storytelling device, and work your scenes, camera angles, shooting techniques to enhance the communication of what your film is supposed to impart.

NickClapper - one audio professional I know that has transitioned and successfully directed is Gary Rydstrom. He directed Pixar's short film "Lifted", and was nominated for an Academy Award for it. He's perhaps in the top 5 all-time best sound designer/re-recording mixers, and he got nominated for an Oscar on the first thing he Directed. Not bad, eh?
 
AudioPostExpert - I LOVE how you mention you get to alter scripts and input ideas in the shot-list and scripting and preliminary process. ALL TOO OFTEN it is the standard operating basis for a director to FINISH EDITING HIS FILM and only THEN think about sound.

To be honest, most of my work is like that. I know little or nothing about the film until the locked-off edit is ready and then, when the director realises it's not the masterpiece he/she thought it would be, it's up to me/my team to try and save the film by shoe-horning some audio interest into a film never designed for it. Often I do save it to an extent and the patient is no longer quite at death's door but it sure is nice to occasionally work on a film which isn't just limited to emergency resuscitation or reading the last rites but is more like working with an accomplished athlete to run even faster.

G
 
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