Sound is 50% of the movie?!

[Sweetie]

All of them! How about Michael Bay? Can we at least agree that Michael Bay is primarily a visual filmmaker?

So when you say the producer, you really mean someone other than a producer? Like in your example the director. Good to know.

Sweetie: Hurt Locker...? Who was the first person hired on the crew beyond the Director/Producer? The "audio guy".

Without knowing the actual answer, I'd expect it'd be a safe bet to say the writer unless it was a spec. After that the director, Line Producer, Casting Director, not necessarily in that order. I'd be extremely surprised if the Production Manager wasn't hired before the audio guy. The soundie doesn't often come on until pre-production. It'd be rare that they'd come on before financing was sourced.

 

[mus]

Out of curiosity, have any audio professionals made the successful transition to directing? I can think of examples for most other crew positions, but not sound (although I'm certain there must be some!).

While not primarily an audio professional, in the commentary for Ted, Seth Macfarlane talks about how (since he comes from a voiceover background) when he's cutting his films, he's cutting more for sound than visual continuity

Maybe that counts

 

[Utopia]

Without knowing the actual answer, I'd expect it'd be a safe bet to say the writer unless it was a spec. After that the director, Line Producer, Casting Director, not necessarily in that order. I'd be extremely surprised if the Production Manager wasn't hired before the audio guy. The soundie doesn't often come on until pre-production. It'd be rare that they'd come on before financing was sourced.

I wasn't inviting you to guess at it. I was telling you the actual answer.

http://designingsound.org/2010/04/cas-and-soundworks-collection-present-meet-the-winners-panels/

Paul says so himself in this sound panel. Second video on the blog, fast forward to 1:40 - he says "They were still writing it and Katherine thought it was so important for sound to be a part of it. I was the first person hired on this movie".

 

[Cracker Funk]

So when you say the producer, you really mean someone other than a producer? Like in your example the director. Good to know.

Michael Bay is a producer. Steven Spielberg, James Cameron, Tarantino. All of them are producers. And each of them comes from the visual side. Hand any one of them a camera, and they'll know what to do with it. Hand them a microphone, and they'll be like, "nope, that's what I hired that guy for."

I'm not saying there aren't any producers who understand the importance of audio. All of the best ones do, and hire talented sound people from the outset. But where is that producer who got their start as a sound guy?

Who wants to be the first?!

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I'd be extremely surprised if the Production Manager wasn't hired before the audio guy. The soundie doesn't often come on until pre-production.

It really does depend. Randy Thom is usually the first person that Zemeckis calls. I've been involved in films from the development stage (and am currently). Coppola bought Murch on board when Apocalypse Now was shelved and no one else was working on it. I would say that in amateur indie films the Sound Designer is very rarely, if ever involved before post-production. Big name directors rarely bring the Sound Designer on board later than the beginning of pre-production and it's certainly not uncommon for them to be bought on board even earlier!

Michael Bay is a producer. Steven Spielberg, James Cameron, Tarantino. All of them are producers. And each of them comes from the visual side. Hand any one of them a camera, and they'll know what to do with it. Hand them a microphone, and they'll be like, "nope, that's what I hired that guy for."

That's just not true, as I said before, James Cameron is perfectly competent with ProTools and gets his hands dirty on every one of his films. Tarantino is also a bad example, I don't know how much he is able to do physically but he's more fanatical about sound (particularly production sound) than any audio guy I know! He will on occasion sacrifice the cinematography and pretty much every other aspect of the shoot for production sound. Rather ironic that so many amateur indie filmmakers hold Tarantino up a a poster boy but actually ignore what/how Tarantino actually makes films. And let's be honest, Spielberg is hardly a good example either! Michael Bay is probably a better example though!

I'm not sure it matters what a producer (or director) originally started as, isn't it what they develop into that counts? If it's important to you for some reason though, Orson Welles or any other director/producer who started in radio.

G

 

[Cracker Funk]

Facts, schmacts. Stop ruining my sales-pitch, I need a co-producer!

Of course it matters what a producer originally started as. Cuz then how else would they be able to say they liked audio before it was cool?

Just look at this website as an example. What's the most common question out of every newbie's mouth? "What kind of camera should I get?" Ain't no newbs asking which mic they should get. We have to teach that to them.

There are a grand total of four IT members who would list sound guy as their #1 skill and passion. How many of them are also producers? Zero.

See what I'm gettin' at? Why y'all acting like I'm not just stating the obvious. There aren't any producers who came from the sound side. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

Somewhere, there's got to be a sound guy who aspires to also be a producer. It may be 6 months from now, maybe a year from now, but sooner or later, maybe they'll stumble across this thread and feel inspired.

Join me, sound guy! Be a producer!

 

[AudioPostExpert]

There are a grand total of four IT members who would list sound guy as their #1 skill and passion. How many of them are also producers? Zero.

You seem to be missing the point, sound is our passion and that's why we don't want to be producers! Producers are producers for one of three reasons: 1. They started in film as a producer and that's what they want to be, 2. They turned to producing to give themselves more freedom/power, say in the case of writers and directors, or 3. They started as something else but got bored (became less passionate) and turned to producing.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

Ah, I agree ... I feel like you're taking crazy pills too!

Somewhere, there's got to be a sound guy who aspires to also be a producer.

Maybe, somewhere, but I certainly don't, in fact I'd hate to be a producer. And, I can't think of a single film/TV audio pro I've met in 20 years or so who wanted to be a producer, they're either just happy with their lot or want to be better audio pros.

G

 

[Cracker Funk]

You seem to be missing the point, sound is our passion and that's why we don't want to be producers!

Ah-HA! So you're admitting the truth - that there isn't a single producer we can think of who started as a sound guy. Which means that the one who joins my team would be remembered as a trailblazer.

That's great for you that you don't want to produce. You do you. And maybe it's true that most sound guys share your sentiment.

But surely, somewhere in this vast universe, there's got to be one who wants to take more creative control. Somewhere out there is a sound guy who's got some really radical ideas, things their visually-minded director won't let them do. Somewhere, there's got to be a sound guy who dreams of standing on the stage to hoist the Oscar for Best Picture. Somewhere, there's got to be a sound guy who wants to swim in money!

What would happen if a sound guy decided to take control of their next project? We don't know, it's never been done. I'm only on page six of the vomit draft, you've still got time to hop on-board, sound guy/aspiring producer!

 

[Alcove Audio]

Out of curiosity, have any audio professionals made the successful transition to directing? I can think of examples for most other crew positions, but not sound (although I'm certain there must be some!).

I wouldn't say that he has transitioned from sound to directing, but Gary Rydstrom (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0003977/) has directed a short for Pixar. Maybe because Mr. Rydstrom did audio post for the very first Pixar shorts (even before they were Pixar), Toy Story (Pixar's first feature film) and a few other Pixar films they just let him have some fun.

He also directed a feature, "Strange Magic. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4191054/?ref_=nm_flmg_dr_1

You've got to understand however, that we audio types absolutely LOVE sound. We may love our significant others, we may love visuals and story telling, but sound is the cruel heartless mistress that owns our souls.

 

[Utopia]

ALCOVE

I ALREADY MENTIONED GARY RYDSTROM!! Fact stealer!!!!

You also forgot to mention, like I DID, that Gary was nominated for an academy award for best short film for Lifted...

 

[Utopia]

OK Everyone,

Your assignment is to read this article:

http://www.filmsound.org/articles/designing_for_sound.htm

I want a full report by tomorrow night, no less than 1,000 words, about how you will apply this in your future films.

 

[Sweetie]

Somewhere, there's got to be a sound guy who wants to swim in money!

Pitch your proposal. We've heard what you need. What's the quid pro quo. Tell them how are you going to deliver? Can you guarantee they'll be swimming in money? If so, how?

 

[Cracker Funk]

Pitch your proposal. We've heard what you need. What's the quid pro quo. Tell them how are you going to deliver? Can you guarantee they'll be swimming in money? If so, how?

Oh, no, of course I can't guarantee that. I hope it didn't sound like that's what I was saying. In fact, I'll be the first to acknowledge the fact that the odds are against us, and from a statistical viewpoint we're more likely to lose money. What I mean is that producers are the ones who make the big bucks, that's all.

But this is a project I'm very excited about, and if there's anyone who'd like to know more details, they should hit me up and we can discuss it privately. This is going to be a tiny-budget feature, so everyone will be wearing multiple hats. Which would mean that the sound guy still gets to be a sound guy. They also would get to be producer, and answer to no one when it comes to making really important decisions.

To better answer your question, the reason I feel good about this project is because I've done this before and I learned some valuable lessons from my prior tiny-budget feature. For starters, there's no deadline for this film. I'm dedicated to allowing everything to take as long as it needs. Secondly, and perhaps just as importantly, is that one of the biggest lessons I learned from Antihero is that a tiny-budget filmmaker needs to build an audience before production has even begun. You can't just make a snappy trailer and expect people to see it. Can I guarantee that this new strategy is going to work? Of course not. But nothing ventured, nothing gained, right?

By the way, though I specifically hope to partner up with someone who focuses on audio, I'll gladly entertain offers from non-audio co-producers. I don't think there's any reason why we'd have to be in the same locale. At least not for all of preproduction. For production, we'd have to get you on a plane.

 

[Sweetie]

Which would mean that the sound guy still gets to be a sound guy. They also would get to be producer, and answer to no one when it comes to making really important decisions.

Ok, to clarify. You want a sound guy. To volunteer. and as a reward, you want them to also do the work of a producer? and on top of that, no one is in charge?

 

[Cracker Funk]

I guess I should share the financial plan. This may come as a shock, but the reason I'm specifically looking for an audio-minded co-producer is because that would be a significant savings on the total budget.

So far as budget is concerned, I of course have the unenviable task of deciding which jobs I'm willing to pay people to do, vs. those that I'll either ask for volunteers, and/or take care of on my own.

Audio is one such position that I'm neither willing to trust myself to do, nor am I willing to ask for a volunteer or a low-pay almost-volunteer. On Antihero, my lone paid crew position was boom-operator, but I could only afford $75/day, so the person I hired had no expertise in that position. Don't get me wrong, I was delighted to have him on the team, but he and I working together on sound was like the blind leading the blind. For Rage of the Fire, I'm going to need an actual pro, from pre all the way through post. That's gonna eat up about half of my budget. Unless I can find someone excited enough about the project that they'll do it not for free but for a bigger position, creative control, and equal footing in the films' financial stakes.

Lead actors -- paid, but not very much. I've got someone in mind for the lead, and she'll be great!
Supporting actors -- volunteer/deferred pay
Cinematographer -- would love to get a volunteer, but if not it's me
makeup/hair/scripty/associate producer -- paid, but not much
stunts -- paid
SFX -- me
music -- paid

We might need a police escort for a day or two. There's some gunplay, and I ain't tryin' to get nobody killed. Most of the gunplay is inside, but some of it outside.

Uhh, so yeah, it's an ambitious project. It's also very topical, with some pretty heavy themes regarding race relations in modern America, a lesbian lead role, and a lot of humor.

I guess I'm gonna share the logline eventually. May as well do so now.

Tamarah, a young FBI agent from Seattle, a lesbian in an interracial relationship, goes deep undercover to investigate a group of white supremacists suspected of plotting a terrorist attack.

 

[Cracker Funk]

Utopia, thanks for the link! I'll definitely give it a read. It's nice to have another audio guy around these forums.

 

[Cracker Funk]

OK Everyone,

Your assignment is to read this article:

http://www.filmsound.org/articles/designing_for_sound.htm

I want a full report by tomorrow night, no less than 1,000 words, about how you will apply this in your future films.

That was a good read, partner, thanks for sharing. Sounds like (no pun intended) you sound guys have to deal with some brutal difficulties throughout the entire filmmaking process. Can you imagine how liberating it could be if your producer was a sound guy?

 

[Sweetie]

I guess I should share the financial plan.

Just to clarify again. Your business plan is to pay people as little as you can?

Can you imagine how liberating it could be if your producer was a sound guy?

I can see your point of view. To me, it's a downright scary proposition. When I was the soundie, I preferred the producer to be both capable of doing their job and to actually do their job. Some of which is an understanding of what sound requires for a production. I don't see there being any point if their focus is sound while the rest of the world is burning down around them. I'd be doubly worried if there's profit participation and/or deferred pay.

 

[Cracker Funk]

Just to clarify again. Your business plan is to pay people as little as you can?

Yep. Why you gotta make it so cynical? Most people in my shoes don't offer any pay at all. They offer "deferred" pay, which we all know means no pay at all.

It's not an ideal situation, far from it. I'm a freaking restaurant worker. I'm going to have to struggle my pants off just to put myself in a situation so that I'll be able to pay people anything. Nobody is going to be paying me, and I'm likely to lose money on the entire thing.

Furthermore, I have an idea for an egalitarian system of pay that I must admit borrows largely from the "deferred" pay model, but is more fair, in my opinion.

Every person on the film, save for the one or two people whom I'll likely have no choice but to pay their competitive day salaries, will be getting "paid" the same amount in "virtual dollars". So here's me, writer/producer/director. For every full day of work that I put in, I'm awarded $200 in "virtual dollars". The fact that I didn't receive these dollars in real life means that my time counts as a monetary investment.

Anyone else who also puts in a full day's work also gets the same $200 in "virtual dollars". If an actor receives $75 in actual dollars for a day's work, then they receive only $125 in "virtual dollars". Everyone's investment of time counts equally towards their share of any eventual/hopeful profit.

So, it's basically "deferred" pay, but more fair, in my opinion, because everyone's risk is proportionate to their potential earnings.

Have you ever made a tiny-budget feature? It ain't for the meek.

By the way, what makes you think a sound guy can't more than adequately perform the task of producer? Is there some reason why visually-minded people are better equipped to handle those duties? Of course not. Again, this is a tiny-budget feature. Everyone is going to be wearing multiple hats. And it's going to be a lot of fun!

 

[Sweetie]

Most people in my shoes don't offer any pay at all. They offer "deferred" pay, which we all know means no pay at all.

Don't take it the wrong way. I don't know anyone else who has the balls to say I plan to make money and not pay you and call it a business/finance plan. It's calling it a business plan part that's humorous. It's partial cost reduction. Most business plans include some references to revenue/income, customer acquisition/distribution, marketing etc.

With the exception of never paying your people, deferred is about as far from an egalitarian system as it gets. It pushes the risk on to the workers without the benefit from taking that risk. Fortunately what you're describing isn't deferred, it's a form of profit participation. I applaud you for that.

what makes you think a sound guy can't more than adequately perform the task of producer?

Why? At the same time? I've performed both duties. That's why. It makes about as much sense to ask the sound guy to also operate the camera. Who knows, you've only got 7 or so people on your film. What fires could you need stomped out?

Everyone is going to be wearing multiple hats.

Some hats can work in combination.

Take for instance, DOP/Gaffer/Grip, while can slow things down, can work together.
Writer/Director/Editor can work together.
Soundie, post sound can work well together.

Jobs where you're expected to do tasks at the same time don't work so well.

You call "Action". What happens to your shooting when an urgent 60 minute phone call comes in for your producer about your next shooting location. Do you forgo your next location or do you make everyone stop work for that 60 minutes?

There's no rush to shoot this right? As APE already mentioned, it's hard to get people to put their lives on hold when there's no incoming money. How do find people who can put their lives on hold for an indefinite amount of time? Film part time? Who knows, it might work.

One thing I don't understand. Why are you trying to recruit from people outside your region? If you cannot afford to pay them, how are you going to be able to afford to transport and house them? I'm not sure why you're not looking for locals. Local film students may be more inclined and more in a position to work the way you need.

And it's going to be a lot of fun!

Just to clarify again. Is this another one of those guarantees?