sound Sound for a HDSLR system for Micro-Budget Indie Newbie?

[Graeme]

Looking for some sound advice

My camera system is going to be a HDSLR (likely whatever replaces the Nikon D700 or a the Canon 5D MII) so it will have an RCA audio jack and crappy on-board sound (that I never want to use).

My "Sound" Budget is around $1000 and I'll be doing mainly Music Vids, Shorts, and Theatrical Indie Videos and the occasional nature film. I don't see a lot of run & gun sort of shooting. Client output would be DVD/Blu-Ray and web-based (I can't see myself doing theater screens in the near future).

So I've been looking at various sound options and here is what I'm thinking for my sound-setup.

1a. I have somewhere*** an old stick mic (I don't think its shotgun, but very similar looking so it may be) with XLR output and end-piece converter to RCA (large), it runs on AA and presumably phantom if using XLR port. I have several long audio quality RCA (large) cables and adapters to the smaller RCA port I expect the camera to have.
1b. Looked into a shock mount for it ~$60

2. A RODE Video Mike to sit on the camera as a shotgun mic, it has a RCA output directly to camera. Went to the local video store and tried it out on a D300s (because the gain can be set to manual on the D300s) and had the sales person talk while I rotated the camera to hear sound fall off. ~$150

3. I'm also planning to get some noise canceling headphones for quick sound review on-set, Likely Bose as my brother has a pair and they seem to work quite well. ~$300

4. Boom with counter weight (micro-indie I likely won't have a dedicated audio guy who is used to holding the boom, likely only my AD, off-screen actor, or myself between shots). ~$150 but likely DIY from my lighting gear.

5. A dead cat and small audio recorder ~$200

6. I have a Flip Ultra HD video camera which is portable to indiscreetly place somewhere as a floor mic/video etc.

This brings the total for audio around $750 + shipping & taxes for two mics which can record at the same time.

Or Should I go for one of these packages?

Please Chime in with your suggestions

*** I recently moved and looking at doing another move to a more permanent location, so much stuff is still in boxes.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Mics

Rode NTG-2 - $270
Oktava MK-012 w/hyper capsule - $280

Mixer &/or recorder

Sound Devices MM-1 - $375
Zoom H4n - $300 (I can't believe I wrote that!)

OR

If the camera has a 1/8" minipin audio input you could get the juicedLink CX-231 - $300

Headphones

Sony MDR-7506 - $100

Accessories

Boom Pole
Softie
Cables

 

[Uranium City]

Zoom H4n - $300 (I can't believe I wrote that!)

I can feel your anger. I am defenseless. Take your weapon! Strike me down with all your hatred, and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!

 

[Graeme]

Headphones
Cool, $100 less than I expected to spend.

Mixers/Recorders
Zoom H4n looks like an excellent tool (I don't understand your comment).
- Stereo Mic
- Two XLR phantom powered inputs
- 4-channels and Only $300!

Quick question, does it play out to headphones while recording? I was thinking if I plugged the mics into the H4n then use a y-split to the camera and headphones.

The reason I'm thinking this is I want to hear what I'm recording while I shoot, and put it into the camera for quick play back review. In post I'll replace the camera's sound with the H4n sound and use the recording from the camera to help sync the audio to the video.

Now That said you mentioned the MM-1 along with the H4n, correct me if I'm wrong, but why would you need the MM-1 if you go for a H4n?

Mics
Alcove, do you suggest getting both or only one? Both seem to be shotgun mics except that the Oktava has extra head pieces which can be switched (at extra cost).

If I get the H4n do I really need two more mics? (I have one XLR mic already).

 

[Beeblebrox]

Quick question, does it play out to headphones while recording?

Yes it does.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Cool, $100 less than I expected to spend.

The MDR-7506 are a standard. They can take a reasonable beating, are relatively flat sonically (they don't "color" the sound) and are loud enough for most situations. BTW, noise canceling headphones are not a good idea; you WANT to hear whatever noise there is to be sure that you are recording accurately. There's nothing worse than "it sounded good on the set" and finding out in audio post that your tracks are full of extraneous noises.

Zoom H4n looks like an excellent tool (I don't understand your comment). ...you mentioned the MM-1 along with the H4n, correct me if I'm wrong, but why would you need the MM-1 if you go for a H4n?

Because the Zoom H4n is rather flimsy - one hard drop and it's an expensive paper weight - and the mic preamps are VERY noisy. By using the MM-1 you bypass the preamps in the Zoom. You can control volume from the MM-1 without having to access the menu in the Zoom. It also will allow the boom-op to carry the MM-1 on his/her belt and plug their headphones into it. The MM-1 will always be useful even when you have a $50,000 production sound rig.

With the Zoom you can only use the headphone out for either headphones OR as a feed to the camera. Yes, a "Y" cable will solve the problem; just be aware that a cable run of more than five or ten feet from the Zoom to the camera will be very susceptible to RF interference and other noise problems which will be heard in the headphones so you may not hear your production sound accurately or have it record well into the camera.

BTW, the Zoom H4n can only record two (2) tracks at a time. It was originally aimed at low budget musicians as a pocket demo recorder, not indie film people.

...do you suggest getting both or only one? Both seem to be shotgun mics except that the Oktava has extra head pieces which can be switched.

A quick education:

Condenser is the way the mic translates the sound. In a condenser microphone the diaphragm acts as one plate of a capacitor, and the vibrations produce changes in the distance between the plates. There are also Dynamic, Ribbon, Electret Condenser, and PZM/Piezoelectric microphones which use different methods to translate audio impulses to electrical impulses. There are also Carbons, Liquid, Fibre Optic and Laser mics, which I don't pretend to understand.

Then there are Pick-Up or Polar Patterns - Lobar (shotguns), Cardioid (heart-shaped) in various flavors, Omnidirectional (360 degrees), Unidirectional (single point) and Bi-Directional (figure "8").

See pictures of Polar Patterns here:
http://www.microphonemadness.com/faq.htm#micpolarpatterns

The MK-012 is a cardioid pick-up pattern condenser mic. There are three capsules available; cardioid, super-cardioid and hyper-cardioid. The hyper-cardioid capsule is usually the most appropriate for production sound. The NTG-2 is an interference tube lobar pattern (shotgun) condenser mic. Shotguns have better off-axis rejection so are very useful outdoors; however, when used indoors they tend to give that very "echoey" "roomy" sound so often heard in indie films. That's why you use a hyper-cardioid indoors; it will sound less roomy. It doesn't completely solve the problem, but will sound much better than a shotgun. As a caveat shotguns are used indoors by very experienced boom-ops, but most indie filmmakers do not possess that degree of skill. Given the choice, a professional production sound crew will use a cardioid in most indoor situations.

Read my blog here on IndieTalk for more info on production sound.

 

[Graeme]

@Beeblebrox - Cool, I think I know what kind of wiring set-up I would like.

The MDR-7506 are a standard. ...noise canceling headphones are not a good idea

Then those are the head phones I will get.

BTW, the Zoom H4n can only record two (2) tracks at a time. It was originally aimed at low budget musicians as a pocket demo recorder, not indie film people.

This is what I read at the bottom of their website, is my interpretation wrong? --> http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/products/h4n/
<4CH Mode>
●Simultaneous Recording Tracks: 4 ●Simultaneous Playback Tracks: 4 ●Functions: Lo-cut Filter, Compressor/Limiter, M/S Stereo Decoder, Auto-Rec, Pre-Rec, Tuner, Metronome, A-B Repeat, Normalize, Marker ●Recording Format: WAV (Quantization: 16/24bit, Sampling Frequency: 44.1/48kHz) ●Playback Format: WAV (Quantization: 16/24bit, Sampling Frequency: 44.1/48kHz)

...when used indoors they tend to give that very "echoey" "roomy" sound so often heard in indie films. That's why you use a hyper-cardioid indoors; it will sound less roomy.

Okay I'll look into getting both, should I be looking at a "matched pair" or only a single?

Read my blog here on IndieTalk for more info on production sound.

Done, good all around advice.

----
More Noobish Questions:

Now as for the pre-amp comments, could you explain (or direct me to a good website) this?
Is this like boosting the gain or something?
Can I just capture the sound without amping it and do it in post? (Using a Digital recorder, I shouldn't loose quality transferring the sound over to the software, right?)

 

[Alcove Audio]

Okay, really quick as I'm very tired and in a hurry...

The H4n can run at various bit/sample rates. Yes, it can run four channels simultaneously, but only at 16bit/44.1kHz (CD standard), and two of the channels will the onboard mics. Standard Def video is 16bit/48kHz, (HD is 24bit/96kHz) and the Zoom will not record four channels at that bit/sample rate.

You'll transfer the files from the Zoom to your computer via USB, so no degradation of the sound there.

You only need one of each, a cardioid and a shotgun. There will be no "matched pair"; they are different types of microphones from very different manufacturers.

The Preamps raise the signal level. Every audio mixing and/or recoding device that works with microphones will have a preamp of some type. The differences are the quality of the components. Cheap preamps are noisy, quality preamps are clean; it's like the differences between cars - a Yugo and a Mercedes Benz do the same job, but which would you rather drive?

 

[Graeme]

Thanks Alcove, I understand your selection reasoning now. I will look to getting the audio equipment as you suggest (while finding out if the mic I have is cardioid or shotgun).

Again your advice and explanations are greatly appreciated.

 

[Alcove Audio]

I likely won't have a dedicated audio guy who is used to holding the boom, likely only my AD, off-screen actor, or myself between shots).

All of the nice audio gear won't do you any good at all if you do not have someone competent to run it. The greatest gear in the world will still sound like feces in the hands of an inexperienced noob, while an experienced pro - or even a modestly experienced up-and-comer - can get amazing results out of bargain gear.

And as always, don't rely on just my opinion. Do some serious research on your own.

"Opinions are like a$$holes; everybody has one and they all stink!"

 

[Graeme]

The greatest gear in the world will still sound like feces in the hands of an inexperienced noob, while an experienced pro - or even a modestly experienced up-and-comer - can get amazing results out of bargain gear.

I tend to agree, however I point out that a serious hobbyist can produce good work.

My comment was on making the Boom have counter-weighting and on a rotating stand as holding one is well, heavy work, and although I will have someone competent using it properly they likely will not have the upper body strength to hold it continuously all day (I know I don't).

 

[kgasser2]

forget this post

 

[Alcove Audio]

I tend to agree, however I point out that a serious hobbyist can produce good work.

No argument, but only IF - and that's a big IF - they have a good idea of what they are supposed to be doing.

My comment was on making the Boom have counter-weighting and on a rotating stand as holding one is well, heavy work, and although I will have someone competent using it properly they likely will not have the upper body strength to hold it continuously all day (I know I don't).

When I'm preparing to do production sound (I no longer do it very often) I have a 12' steel pole that weighs about 25 pounds and I work out with that as well as some other light free-weights. After two weeks of that a regular boom pole is a feather.

The technique is very important. You hold you arms in an "H" - your elbows parallel with or slightly above your shoulders, this minimizes arm fatigue. The boom pole rests in your palms and you do small aiming adjustments by "rolling" the boom pole with your fingertips. Larger left/right adjustments are made by moving from the waist to minimize footsteps.