Some Advice Please

Thanks for that breakdown Will, much appreciated! I was going back and fourth with coming to a decision as to how much I would need, but that's a great base, thanks.
 
Will Vincent said:
The main cost involved in shooting on film is the film stock, processing, and transfer (assuming you're going to edit digitally) costs.

Lets do some basic math here.. about the cheapest you'll find 16mm film stock is $16 per 100' re-canned roll.

Not counting leader and tail lengths that will be unusable, that 100' will get you roughly 2 3/4 minutes of footage at 24fps. For processing and transfer, figure somewhere between $.50 and $1.00 per foot, so that's at least another $50, but lets be ultra generous and say you find a smoking deal and get it for half price.. so now between film stock, processing, and transfer to digital you're sitting at about $40 per 2 1/2 minutes of footage.

Lets assume you're shooting a 5 minute short film. For the sake of this scenario lets say you're able to achieve a 6:1 shooting ratio. So, you'll shoot 30 minutes of footage to cut down to that 5 minute short (this is a very conservative estimate). That puts you at just under $500 for your film stock, processing, and transfer. Of course that's not including shipping charges, extra fees the lab charges for processing and transfer, etc..

But, $500 for 30 minutes of footage. On the other hand, you could get twice that amount of footage for about $10 on a very high quality tape (or $5 if you buy the nice bargain maxell tapes like I do) and you'd have the rest of that $500 to put into food for your cast/crew, renting extra lights and grip equipment, fully outfitting your locations, etc..

Now I realize not all of that extra stuff applies to your short that takes place in the park, but it should be pretty clear that film is significantly more expensive than video.
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:seeya:

I never really knew how much all that would cost, I just knew it was more than I had! Thanks, for the breakdown, Will.....and for the record: I'm not cheap, I'm broke!...:D

"Please, sir, Could you spare a mini dv tape? It's for me mum, she's sick,"...make sure you say that in your best David Copperfield voice...:lol:

-- spinner :cool:
 
Hey, I'm talking about myself too.. although I did just buy a new camera --- so, more broke than cheap, but I held out for the best deal I could so cheap too i guess. :)
 
These days, film for shorts and festivals offers almost no advantage aside from a vague and tenuous aesthetic one. But 24p video, shot the right way, can come so close that film simply isn't worth the costs. It used to be that people took you more seriously if you shot film, but those days are long gone apart from a few hold-out luddites. My short films have played at dozens of festivals all over the world, won numerous awards (including a DP award at Fano) and they are all but one (which was shot 35mm) shot on the DVX-100.
 
Will and I were talking about "Broken", the film made by two of our own talented IndieTalk folks. Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to get a copy of it to see what is possible in 24p video. You can most likely at least get a look at the trailer, and if you get the DVD, I think it talks about making video look like film. I will eventually get a copy of the film myself, haven't done that yet.....

-- spinner :cool:
 
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Hey Beeblebrox, did you really do that well? That's impressive! And I agree, it used to be where if it wasn't shot on film, people didn't take you seriously. Hey, how do you all feel about the Canon XLS? If I do digital, I would want to use that camera with the mini35.

Thoughts?
 
Yeah, I've been lucky with some really good collaborations, including a producer with some real hustle. My first short film on the DVX isn't even online yet after two years because it's STILL touring the world. It has played in 39 festivals so far and won six awards.

I like the Canon XL2, which does 24p. It's a little pricier than the DVX and the lenses can be quite expensive as well, but it's a nice camera with a lot of features.

Honestly, if you're renting and if you decide on digital, I'd suggest going slightly higher-end with the HVX-200 or the Canon XL H1, both prosumer HD cameras. That's where the future is in terms of digital indie filmmaking and it's becoming more and more accessible to no-budget producers.
 
Beeblebrox said:
Yeah, I've been lucky with some really good collaborations, including a producer with some real hustle. My first short film on the DVX isn't even online yet after two years because it's STILL touring the world. It has played in 39 festivals so far and won six awards.
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Good For You!

I have to say I am glad to see so many people here that I recognize and haven't seen in a while!

-- spinner :cool:
 
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I'm hoping to have some even better news in the next couple of weeks. :)

I'm glad they finally removed that premium requirement to post. I had gone so far as to remove the site from my bookmarks. :(
 
Interesting thread.

I think one of the areas where people get confused about the whole film vs digital debate, is there is an implicit assumption that we'd all shoot film, if only we could afford it, because film is a superior format.

Ten years ago, that was a valid point... but, these days EVERYTHING ends up in the digital domain, so the arguements for film are pretty much all about latitude. Film is just that much more forgiving when it comes to lighting.

Having said that, what is still true, is film makers who shoot on film are taken more seriously in the market place than people who work digitally. It's an insane stance for the industry to take and it will die out in time, but at this point it's still true.

My formula for making format decisions is based on the following criteria:

1) What am I going to do with the movie when it's finished? (if I'm posting it on Youtube, film is probably overkill)
2) What look do I want for the final piece? (if it's a distinct film look can I achieve that digitally, or will it be easier on film?)
3) What kind of post production effects are part of my story and what's the best format to acquire them? (If I'm adding lots of digital effects is film necessary?)
4) Does the cost of my favored format make sense, in terms of what I'm trying to achieve?
5) Where do my skills and strengths lie?

Or there is another way of putting it, What do I want my film to look like? Which ways can I achieve that look? Which ways play to my strengths as a film maker? Does the cost of producing it a particular way, outweight the benefits of shooting that way?

One of the difficulties with being new to film making is having to make decisions based on less than perfect knowledge of what is or isn't possible.

In your situation I'd get a clear picture of what you want the film to look like and then go hunting for cinematographers, some who specialize in shooting on film and some who specialize in shooting digitally. Ask them how they'd approach getting the look you want and what kind of budget they'd need to get the job done.

Then base your decision on their expertise.
 
Again, everyone's comments are so helpful I can't thank you enough.

Thanks for the info Clive, very helpful things to think about.

Here is a site I found for film. What do you guys think? http://www.spectrafilmandvideo.com/Film.html

Also, hey Beeblebrox, is there any place I can view your films? I'd love to see them. I have a staging area I'm building for my website that I'm looking to feature independent films. I'd love to show it on my site.
 
45thronin said:
Also, hey Beeblebrox, is there any place I can view your films? I'd love to see them. I have a staging area I'm building for my website that I'm looking to feature independent films. I'd love to show it on my site.
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I only have a couple of them online since most of them are still in festivals. Here's the one that was shot on 35mm. It's called The Fountain. It played in 7 festivals and won Best Short at the Director's View Film Festival in Stamford and second prize at the International Family Film Festival in Santa Clarita.

http://one.revver.com/watch/338778/flv/affiliate/8486

Thanks!

Here's a short film I did when I got my DVX, just to test it out.

http://one.revver.com/watch/17446/flv/affiliate/8486
 
read a book or meet a starving camera man

You will rent the equipment not buy unless you live in a small town and find the only camera for sale for $100. Normally though the used camera will not work well and the rental will. The camera man will shoot for you but this does not include editing. I would suggest you figure out how to get the look of film on digital since this is what you know. you are way over your head unless you find a camera man.
 
Good point, thanks jimnick.

Hey Beeblebrox, I saw both the movies. I have to say that I absolutely LOVED "The Fountain". VERY sweet movie! Thanks so much for putting those up. I can't tell you how much my head has been spinning with questions since I saw that film. Like, how did you find the producers? Did the producers fund the movie? I'm assuming you wrote it, correct? How did you find the crew to film the movie? How did you find the location to shoot? House? etc. etc.

For me, watching this film only confirms my passion to shoot in film. Watching a digital movie, no matter how good it is, is just not the look I'm going for. I don't know where I'm going to get the money, but I have to shoot in film. There is no way I can afford 35mm, so I'm thinking about Super 16. Thoughts?

I had two producers who were interested in doing my film, however they couldn't get the money which is why I had to basically tell them that I'm going to just do this myself. They weren't too happy about it, as they really loved my script, but if you can't get the money, why bother.

Excellent work Beeblebrox!

-45thronin
 
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Let me make this a short and sweet as possible. How many movies do you intend to make? If it is only one then maybe shoot on film. If you want to make more then put the budget for your celluloid feature in the bank and withdraw from it to make more than a few digital features. What ever you decide just go for it and welcome to the crazy world of indie moviemaking.
 
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