sound So Ya Wanna Be A Boom-Op...

[Alcove Audio]

Here are a couple of links to articles and lectures about production sound and booming.

http://www.thompsound.com/old-site/Articles/QSFT/index.htm

http://www.thompsound.com/old-site/Articles/ten_sins/

http://hartfx.net/principles-of-boom-operation/


This one is GREAT!!!!

http://www.695.com/html/edu-vid-good-sound.html

 

[2001 Productions]

Thanks for those!

In "The Art of Booming", Don Coufal talked about panning the mic 360 degrees to find the dead spot, then placing the mic so that the back of it points toward that spot (if I understood correctly). A question that immediately leaped to my mind was, how do you locate that dead spot during the hubbub of setup? Presumably you need to know where it is before picture is up, otherwise everyone is waiting on you.

 

[Zensteve]

Just don't do this, and you'll be fine.

.

 

[2001 Productions]

Just don't do this, and you'll be fine.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Just don't do this, and you'll be fine.

I've seen that one before - it's a classic!!!

... otherwise everyone is waiting on you.

The boom-op and PSM wait for hours for the set dressing, lighting, camera and everyone else; can't the boom-op and PSM get five (5) minutes to do their job right?

 

[2001 Productions]

can't the boom-op and PSM get five (5) minutes to do their job right?

Makes sense to me, but sometimes it seems like the reality is rather less than ideal.

So, does the boom op typically ask the AD for quiet at that point, then proceed to find his spot?

 

[Sweetie]

It's best to let the AD know you want this in prep and then remind them for the first few set ups. After a while, everyone will get used to how you want things. Just remember, 5 minutes on a set is an eternity to an AD. If you really need it, inform them. It may also be good to get on the tech scouts. That may be a better time to get what you need. Good luck in getting included on those tech scouts though, the UPM may object.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Just remember, 5 minutes on a set is an eternity to an AD. If you really need it, inform them.

In my abbreviated career as a PSM/Boom-Op I really hated getting on the set at 5am and sitting around doing nothing until 9am. That's four hours of my time wasted. I've had directors and DP resent the fact that I wanted to practice during blocking. And even though I requested the time in writing during preproduction I never got the opportunity to record room-tones or dialog wilds.

I always made it a point of not stopping the recorder when making these requests on the set. That way the dialog editor(s) knew that I wanted to get then the things they need and was rebuffed by the director/producer/DP/whomever. That was after I got a call from a supervising sound editor who was told by the director that I said that room-tones and dialog wilds were unnecessary.

It was dealing with all of this crap on top of all the hurry-up-and-wait that convinced me to put down the boom and stay exclusively in the editing room.

 

[Sweetie]

I understand where you're coming from. You're frustrated with treating the sound people as second class citizens.

You understand that not getting at least 30 seconds (if not 1 minute) of room tone saves the sound editor a lot of time. If this isn't happening, tell the AD and ask it be brought to the PM/UPM if they don't comply.

If it still isn't happening then it really is your responsibility (well the sound recorders job, seeing they would be your direct department head) to inform the PM/UPM (who is responsible for the money). If this does nothing, then informing the Producer. If nothing else happens or the producer rebuffs you, then you've done your job as professionally as possible, the the decision makers have made their decision and you have to work within the boundaries of their decision.

In the future, you just decide whether you will work with that producer/upm/AD/director again. They'll usually have been attached on before you're brought on.

One thing, I don't see 5 minutes being necessary. I do see 60 to 90 seconds per location to be acceptable though.

I know it's not always as simple as this in the real world though. It is just how it should happen, or at least would happen on one of my sets. I take the point of view, why bring on a professional if you're not going to listen to their advice.

 

[2001 Productions]

I'm gonna brown-nose here a minute and say that I always gave my sound guys as much time as they needed. Consequently, I only had to ADR 3 lines for my entire feature.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I understand where you're coming from. You're frustrated with treating the sound people as second class citizens... You understand that not getting at least 30 seconds (if not 1 minute) of room tone saves the sound editor a lot of time.

No, I don't believe this is the problem or where Alcove is coming from. Getting room tone and dialogue wilds is not just about saving the dialogue/sound editor time. Not getting dialogue wilds will sometimes mean ADR is the only alternative, which means not only considerable cost but a poorer quality final product. Not getting room tone can mean it's almost impossible to match any ADR with the sync sound, that noise levels between dialogue edits may not be easily matched or spurious sounds cannot be removed without leaving gaping holes. While there is an element of time saving, in most cases where we would need room tone or dialogue wilds the end result of not having them is not only going to be more time/cost but ALSO a poorer quality sound mix. As a member of the sound team this poorer quality mix is going to reflect on Alcove (and of course Director and many of the other filmmakers involved).

What I believe Alcove found frustrating was Directors who seems to think that spending way more time and more money in post to achieve a poorer quality end product is preferable to spending the few minutes already agreed upon and planned in pre-production!

It's not up to the PSM to go to the AD, UPM, Producer or whoever and try to convince them to provide the conditions necessary to do his/her job. It's only the responsibility of the PSM to inform the Director when those conditions aren't being met and then it's up to the Director whether to take the PSM's advice or suffer the consequence of a poorer quality final product. In fact technically, the PSM is the only person on set other than the director allowed to call "Cut". The PSM's goal is to help make the film as good as it can be, isn't this the same goal as the Director and Producer? Why should a PSM have to go through a chain of people trying to fight for this goal?

G

 

[Alcove Audio]

One thing, I don't see 5 minutes being necessary. I do see 60 to 90 seconds per location to be acceptable though.

It takes more than 90 seconds before the director calls "Action!" to get proper volume levels, arrange the cables so they are safe, locate audio null points, check for shadows, set up sound treatment, etc., etc., etc. They spend five hours setting up the shot; I wanted just five or ten minutes to properly set up the production audio.

And I DID tell the director and the producer and the 1st AD what my concerns were, both during prepro and on the set and was ignored. What is it about people that once they get on the set sound is completely ignored?

All I wanted was MINIMUM professional standards. MINIMUM!!! Second class citizen? I wish that my production sound was treated even 2% as well on low/no/mini/micro budget projects.

 

[samwagner1000]

I've produced low-budget stuff, worked on medium-budget stuff, and plenty of other various side projects like small time pilots, public access, or promotional content and never have I had a director, AD, producer, or anyone for that matter treat sound so poorly and not value them equally to the rest of the production. One of the things I hear most is whether I'm a PA or Producer is "don't let us forget to get room tone." And if I'm ever operating the boom, I maker sure to tell everyone this, too! And as a producer, I may not have the budget to get my sound guys all the best stuff that they need, but I make sure it is adequate for them to work with and then I'm sure to give them all the time and thanks that they deserve on set. Except when I laugh over a take. But then everyone's mad at me...

 

[Sweetie]

It's not up to the PSM to go to the AD, UPM, Producer or whoever and try to convince them to provide the conditions necessary to do his/her job. It's only the responsibility of the PSM to inform the Director when those conditions aren't being met and then it's up to the Director whether to take the PSM's advice or suffer the consequence of a poorer quality final product. In fact technically, the PSM is the only person on set other than the director allowed to call "Cut". The PSM's goal is to help make the film as good as it can be, isn't this the same goal as the Director and Producer? Why should a PSM have to go through a chain of people trying to fight for this goal?

So you want more time to get your job done and it sounds like you seem to think that going to the director (who doesn't manage the time) is the right move?

The person on set most responsible for time is the AD. The AD is also the coordinator to get everything done. If you've gone to the AD saying you need time for this or that, you've done your job. In reality, it isn't going always work like that. No one gets all the time they want to make everything perfect. That is why I say the next point of call is the PM, since he should also know, since pushing extra work into post production will increase the cost and then the last point of call is the producer. The PM is most responsible for the money.

Why should a PSM have to go through a chain of people trying to fight for this goal?

In a perfect world, we'd have unlimited budgets, no time restraints, everyone would know their job and those in charge would know everyone elses job and be able to make the proper allowances, no arguments would ever break out so on and so on. It's not a perfect world, there aren't unlimited budgets, production time is shorter than everyone would like, everyone thinks their job is the most important part of the movie making process and so on.

You burdening the director with these problems before going to the AD, is similar to your boom operator going to the producer about you forcing him to use a particular type of Microphone. Shouldn't the boom op go directly to the PSM first, or should he also go straight to the director?... what they hell, go straight to the head of the studio, I DEMAND A MEETING! Why should they have to fight through a chain of people to get his way? There is a chain of command for a reason.

The directors job isn't to micromanage everyone or resolve conflicts.

In fact technically, the PSM is the only person on set other than the director allowed to call "Cut".

Well you know that's not right. But nice of you to think that. A PSM shouldn't call cut as much as a camera operator shouldn't call cut. The PSM should notify after cut has been called whether it is usable. Then again, there are no hard and fast rules in this area, just opinions, mine is one of them. An armorer cannot call cut? What about an AD? The DP cannot call it? What about a stunt coordinator? An animal wrangler? Does the producer hold enough power to call cut? What if the directors style isn't to call "action, cut etc.", is the PSM the only other person allowed to fill this role? There are heaps of people that can call cut for various reasons.

I wanted just five or ten minutes to properly set up the production audio.

I want to confirm. You need a minimum of 5 to 10 minutes of complete silence and no movement for each set up, to set up production audio. There is no more efficient way to do this? And this has to be done while everyone is on set right? No way to do it before blocking starts or after breakdown? Not possible to get this done on the tech scout? (Not saying all this is the right move, but are they options?)

What is it about people that once they get on the set sound is completely ignored?

I'm sorry that's your experience. It's not my experience. If I agree to have something done, as an AD, I may occasionally need reminding, but I do my best to find a way. Sound is important, very important. Not giving the soundies what they need to perform their duties are, well in my opinion, very unprofessional and short sighted.

 

[jax_rox]

The boom-op and PSM wait for hours for the set dressing, lighting, camera and everyone else; can't the boom-op and PSM get five (5) minutes to do their job right?

You can't do it during blocking and acting rehearsals..?
I've honestly never had a soundie ask for 5 minutes at each setup, or really any time at all.. What is more common is to hear 'waiting on sound' after 'picture's up' so that they can lengthen the boom pole and tweak settings.. If you need the time, ask the AD, but seriously 5 minutes of complete silence dedicated to getting mic positions correct before every setup is something I've never ever seen afforded to the sound team.

In my abbreviated career as a PSM/Boom-Op I really hated getting on the set at 5am and sitting around doing nothing until 9am. That's four hours of my time wasted. I've had directors and DP resent the fact that I wanted to practice during blocking. And even though I requested the time in writing during preproduction I never got the opportunity to record room-tones or dialog wilds.

I've never worked on a set where the desire to record wilds and atmos, or rehearse during camera and blocking rehearsals have been quashed. The waiting around is really just the nature of the industry - unless you're camera or lighting departments there's a lot of waiting around. I feel for sound guys, but I get more annoyed when sound guys sit around for three hours and then only start to think about setting up immediately before the Director calls 'action'

It's not up to the PSM to go to the AD, UPM, Producer or whoever and try to convince them to provide the conditions necessary to do his/her job.

Except it is - if the PSM needs 2 minutes of atmos at the end of the setup, or 2 minutes before rolling to sort whatever out, it's their job to go to the AD and get it sorted, and if the AD says no, then you can do this:

inform the Director when those conditions aren't being met and then it's up to the Director whether to take the PSM's advice or suffer the consequence of a poorer quality final product.

In fact technically, the PSM is the only person on set other than the director allowed to call "Cut". The PSM's goal is to help make the film as good as it can be, isn't this the same goal as the Director and Producer? Why should a PSM have to go through a chain of people trying to fight for this goal?

Every single person on set's goal is to help make the film as good as it can be (except for maybe some Producers, but that's a different story ). Everyone has to go through a chain. For the same reason that the 1st AC shouldn't approach the Director, the Boom Op shouldn't approach the Director. And, if the DP needs more time for a certain setup, he discusses it with the AD, not the Director. Similarly, it's up to the PSM to address it with the AD, and then if no compromise is met, they can discuss it at some time with the Director and/or Producer.
Also, the PSM is as entitled to call 'cut' as the camera operator. I've seen camera operators call a 'roll out' as soon as it happens, and I've seen them wait until the Director calls cut and then inform the DP or Director (if the DP is also operating) that we rolled out on the last one, and we should take it again on a new roll (or card). The PSM shouldn't be calling cut for bad sound no more than the camera operator should call cut for a screwed up camera movement, focus pull or roll out. Similar to the operator, you should inform someone that the sound was not great at the end of the take, not call cut in the middle of a take...

It takes more than 90 seconds before the director calls "Action!" to get proper volume levels, arrange the cables so they are safe, locate audio null points, check for shadows, set up sound treatment, etc., etc., etc. They spend five hours setting up the shot; I wanted just five or ten minutes to properly set up the production audio.

And.... why can't you do this during camera and blocking rehearsals? I get that it takes more than 90 seconds to do this stuff, but we're spending three hours setting lights and rehearsing - why can't all of this be done at the same time? Sound treatment can, shadows can be checked during rehearsals, cable arrangements can be done even before camera rehearsals, volume levels can be checked during rehearsals...

And I DID tell the director and the producer and the 1st AD what my concerns were, both during prepro and on the set and was ignored. What is it about people that once they get on the set sound is completely ignored?

Don't stress it - I've been on sets where no tech scouts were done, and so we had sound guys complaining about seagulls in a park, a busy train station literally next door to our location etc.
If they want bad sound, it's on them; you can only do your best, and as long as you've notified someone about the issues then that's the best you can do. You could walk, but I guess it depends how much you want/need the paycheck.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

You burdening the director with these problems before going to the AD, is similar to your boom operator going to the producer about you forcing him to use a particular type of Microphone. Shouldn't the boom op go directly to the PSM first, or should he also go straight to the director?... what they hell, go straight to the head of the studio, I DEMAND A MEETING! Why should they have to fight through a chain of people to get his way? There is a chain of command for a reason.

No this is not how it works! It is the PSM's responsibility to report sound issues to the Director, always has been. Actually this isn't entirely true, in the 1930's the PSM was king on set, not the Director. The PSM could and frequently did overrule the Director's decisions and the Director had to clear calling print with the PSM. Obviously the AD deals with time management on set but I if I were acting as PSM, I would clear with the Director before the first day of shooting if his AD has the authority to deny a request to record room tone.

If an on set a request to record room tone is denied, I will simply make note of it in the sound log along with the name of the authorised person who made that decision, end of job! The PSM's job is not to fight for anything, simply to record dialogue as best as possible, advise when this hasn't been achieved and of any other sounds it would be useful to have in post and to keep a detailed accurate sound log. What the Director, AD, UPM, Transport Captain or whoever has been authorised to make the decisions does with that advice is up to them, as are the consequences of not acting on that advice!

Well you know that's not right. But nice of you to think that. A PSM shouldn't call cut as much as a camera operator shouldn't call cut. The PSM should notify after cut has been called whether it is usable. Then again, there are no hard and fast rules in this area, just opinions, mine is one of them.

I'm telling you what standard industry procedure has been, although in this particular case it does seem to be becoming more optional and more Directors, generally the younger and less experienced ones, are allowing others to call cut.

You need a minimum of 5 to 10 minutes of complete silence and no movement for each set up, to set up production audio. There is no more efficient way to do this? And this has to be done while everyone is on set right? No way to do it before blocking starts or after breakdown? Not possible to get this done on the tech scout?

1. I never said that 5-10mins of complete silence was necessary or that much of the prep couldn't be done at other times but under certain circumstances it might be necessary. Obviously, to prep for and record room tone AND dialogue wilds could easily require 5-10 mins of complete silence.

2. Yes, it's entirely possible to anticipate and plan for/avoid many on set audio problems during scouting. Some might view the fact that PSMs are almost never employed to scout the locations or that location scouts rarely consider audio requirements to be film making incompetence! Unfortunately, the only people who tend to feel this way are the production sound team themselves. Directors/Producers also tend to get a short, sharp dose of audio religion, generally about the time the dialogue editing begins, when they suddenly realise how badly they've messed-up and how many more hours and thousands of dollars it's going to cost to achieve half the quality that an extra 5 mins on set would have achieved!

I've never worked on a set where the desire to record wilds and atmos, or rehearse during camera and blocking rehearsals have been quashed.

I don't know what's happened between when this desire was identified and when the materials are delivered to audio post but I frequently have to work on material where there is no room tone and no wilds. And this situation is becoming more common, not less. Take a look at this thread The Death of Room Tone from one of the professional audio post forums.

...if the PSM needs 2 minutes of atmos at the end of the setup, or 2 minutes before rolling to sort whatever out, it's their job to go to the AD and get it sorted

A PSM never needs 2 mins of room tone at the end of setup. A PSM never needs tone at all. It's the film which needs room tone not the PSM. If there is no room tone, the dialogue editor is going to have to be paid to manufacture some (if that's even possible). What is done with the PSM's advice is up to the ultimate discretion of the Director, not the PSM. Again, once the advice has been given, end of job, fill in the sound log and move along. If you need someone to sort out time management on set, so there is an opportunity for the PSM to record room tone, get a better AD and if you want someone to fight for something on set, hire Lindsay Lohan!

BTW, don't get the terms "atmos" and "room tone" confused, they are two different things.

G

 

[Sweetie]

in the 1930's the PSM was king on set, not the Director

That doesn't sound right, then again I wasn't even born when the dinosaurs were on set, but I'm glad you were. It's a little late to be dictating that 80 year old procedure should be used. Next time you're on set, if you possibly do it with a straight face, tell the rest of the crew that the PSM should be the king on set, that you'll be calling cut from here on in. Please post a copy of the video.

If an on set a request to record room tone is denied, I will simply make note of it in the sound log along with the name of the authorised person who made that decision, end of job!

If you're going to take the cop out method of simply logging your problems and not caring, at least do it right. Report issues like this to the script supervisor. They'll at least pass it on to the UPM.

If it's going to take 10 minutes (at 5 minutes your PM should do the math due to how many people are still there and their pay rates compared to yours) to get your sound requirements for post sound, it's my opinion that the right time for the room tone to be collected is after the scene has been finished for the day or if you're moving, after everyone has backed up for the move. You'll have the place to yourself nice and quiet. You usually won't be needed for shooting straight away since they'll be setting up, and after breakdown, I'm sure even you can get the poor 2nd to keep quiet while you and your boom op do your magic. I'm sure you can do it at the start, but pack up is often faster than they set up.

Is that not possible?

 

[Alcove Audio]

You can't do it during blocking and acting rehearsals..?

And.... why can't you do this during camera and blocking rehearsals? I get that it takes more than 90 seconds to do this stuff, but we're spending three hours setting lights and rehearsing - why can't all of this be done at the same time? Sound treatment can, shadows can be checked during rehearsals, cable arrangements can be done even before camera rehearsals, volume levels can be checked during rehearsals...

Nope, it was considered a "distraction" by the director and "interference" by the producer.

I've never worked on a set where the desire to record wilds and atmos, or rehearse during camera and blocking rehearsals have been quashed.

Then you've been really lucky. "We don't have time; we're behind schedule!!!!!!"

I frequently have to work on material where there is no room tone and no wilds. And this situation is becoming more common, not less. Take a look at this thread The Death of Room Tone from one of the professional audio post forums.

This is all too common. On my current project out of 26 scenes I got Room Tone for only one scene - just one.

I feel for sound guys, but I get more annoyed when sound guys sit around for three hours and then only start to think about setting up immediately before the Director calls 'action'

We don't "start thinking about it" just before the camera, rolls, we're not allowed to do anything about it. I would set be up and ready for what was scheduled by 6am, then would not be allowed to do anything ("too distracting" "you're in the way") until they were ready to shoot. When it comes time to roll camera there had been changes of which I was not notified nor given time to accommodate.

My biggest gripe is that, after making the requests for proper access and prep time during prepro and every frigging day on the set I was rebuffed by the director, producer and (if there was one) 1st AD in numerous cases; then, when they found out that they REALLY need the room tones, that they REALLY need the dialog wilds, that they REALLY needed to let me get up some sound treatment, they would lay the blame on me - "He said it wasn't necessary," "He was incompetent." etc. This did not happen once, but on several different shoots.

Having audio files of my "conversations" with these folks and their continuous refusals to accommodate my reasonable and sonically necessary requests saved my reputation - at least with the audio post folks - but soured me on ever doing production sound again.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

That doesn't sound right ...

It doesn't sound right that Australia was once a penal colony and many Australians are therefore descended from criminals but what sounds right and what is actual historical fact are frequently not the same thing!

"Gordon Sawyer, sat at the controls behind the Window, hands gliding across three Bakelite knobs, piloting his Dirigible of Sound into a new world . . . a world in which Sound was King. Down below, Eddie Cantor and the All-Singing, All- Dancing Goldwyn Girls had lived in terror of the distinguished Man Behind the Window. And not just the actors: musicians, cameramen (Gregg Toland among them), the director, the producer (Florenz Ziegfeld) — even Sam Goldwyn himself. No one could contradict it if Mr. Sawyer, dissatisfied with the quality of the sound, leaned into his microphone and pronounced dispassionately but irrevocably the word "Cut!" - Walter Murch.

It's a little late to be dictating that 80 year old procedure should be used.

I'm not dictating anything, are you dictating that history should be re-written?

If you're going to take the cop out method of simply logging your problems ...

Again, you are either not reading properly or just making it up! I said that once the issue had been reported to whoever had the authority to take the decision (usually the director, sometimes the AD), the PSM has fulfilled all the responsibilities required by his/her job, log it and move on! The fact that some PSMs do fight through a chain of command to get what the film makers need is above and beyond the call of duty and certainly not part of the job description. The fact that a PSM might even need to fight is demonstration of the ignorance/stupidity of those he/she is fighting!

If it's going to take 10 minutes (at 5 minutes your PM should do the math due to how many people are still there and their pay rates compared to yours) to get your sound requirements for post sound, it's my opinion that the right time for the room tone to be collected is after the scene has been finished for the day or if you're moving, after everyone has backed up for the move. You'll have the place to yourself nice and quiet.

Great way to get room tone, only room tone for your sound library collection though as it will be useless for your actual film. You do know what room tone is? You do know that the room tone is defined by the boundaries of the room, what is in the room and where it's all positioned, this includes the crew themselves? Your suggestion will get great room tone but different room tone from the room tone which existed when the dialogue was recorded and therefore useless!!!

Mmmm, seems like the PSM is significantly better at math than you! Let's say 10 mins of crew time for tone and dialogue wilds against the cost of: An ADR studio, an ADR Supervisor, an ADR Recordist, an ADR Editor and mixer, a Dialogue editor to manufacture you some room tone. The transportation costs and fees for the actors to attend the ADR studio and record the ADR, the Director's costs for attending and directing all the ADR sessions. The additional mixing costs to match the ADR to the sync dialogue. It's not even close is it? You'll pay many times over the few minutes of crew time on set to "fix it in post" and for a generally poorer final product.

Everything Alcove describes in his last post is entirely in line with what I have been told by every PSM I've ever met and from what I've seen for myself!

G

 

[2001 Productions]

We don't "start thinking about it" just before the camera, rolls, we're not allowed to do anything about it.

This kind of thing is so tragic. WTF are people thinking???

I understand the AD's position -- it's his/her job to keep things moving as quickly as possible. But it's the director's responsibility to get the raw materials s/he needs, including sound. If the AD is inhibiting that, the director needs to take charge and lay down the law. Any director who does not do so has no business calling him/herself a director, IMHO.

I worked with a veteran PSM on a feature several years ago. His preference was to grab tone first thing, before any footage was shot. His rationale was that after the last shot of the scene, the crew are anxious to get packed up and move on/go home, and it's like pulling teeth to get them to stand still for 2 minutes. Whereas, once the first setup is ready, no one is going anywhere until the actors do their work, and many of the crew are kicking it over at crafty. Made sense to me, though he did admit that few directors let him to do it that way.

All of this discussion underscores my original question: how the heck is a boom op supposed to identify a null spot and position him/herself accordingly if not given a few minutes of quiet before the roll? I guess the answer I can take away from this is that Don Coufal was talking about an ideal situation that rarely presents itself.