Should I invest in the RED scarlet?

[AllanBourne]

Me and my buddies(fresh outta film school -_-) Are starting our own little production company. We're going to need equipment, with the arrival of the Scarlet and the new Cannon camera. Does it make sense at this point to buy any other DSLR?

Yes, I'll be pulling out a loan for at least half of this(7k) possibly the full 15k. I don't think it's a bad invesment but then again most times I think with my heart and not my head.

Can I get some feedback guys?

 

[Alcove Audio]

Imagine having a band, and saving money by renting a guitar for your lead guitarist only during hours when you actually have a gig. I'm sure if you ran the numbers that would be cheaper, but your guitarist would suck at his job because skill is something that takes time to build.

In quite a few ways this is rather disingenuous.

First, most guitar players start off with a $150 guitar and a $25 amp; that's the equivalent of a consumer camcorder. If he practices hard - hours every day - he has a shot at playing some paying gigs. If he's joins a band that is consistently playing gigs he'll get a better guitar and amp, and acquire the other tools of the trade like a guitar stand, a tuner, stomp boxes, cases, cables and the other amenities. If he's doing really well, then maybe he'll buy that $1,500 guitar and $1,000 amp, and upgrade the required accessories. So a guitarist doesn't start out with a $5,000 high end Fender, Gibson or PRS. He learns his trade on a serviceable instrument and upgrades as he goes along. I was a working musician for over 25 years (keyboards, but the principle applies) working my way up through the system from wide-eyed amateur playing dive bars to experienced professional - with the gear supplied to me - playing Carnagie Hall and the Apollo, so this is not just hearsay with me.

Even still, most steadily working guitarists (three to five gigs a week) don't have much more than $5,000 worth of gear. This is a far cry from an inexperienced recent grad with no practical experience and no track record dropping $15,000 plus all the accessories in the hopes of getting paying jobs.

 

[AllanBourne]

Thanks for all the advice guys, really. It won't be just me paying for the Camera, it's 4 of us, we've ran some numbers already. We have a set of Jobs lined up, we'll start off working for film students(charging about $150-200) per shoot. Professional shoot's we'll charge a bit more. We have other equipment(t2i) and Unlimited access to a (5D). But coming from inside the system(film school, NYFA, NYU) I see how things are being run, how most of these student filmmakers think. We'll have jobs lined up. I'm gonna take out money for the rig(15k) and my other two buddies will handle the rest(10k) so we'll have the complete setup.

 

[Phil_UK]

One RED Volt: $200 - 30 Minutes Runtime..

Shooting day: 5 hours. 10 RED Volt: 10 x $200 = $2.000

One RED Mag 64GB: $1000 - 30 Minutes capacity, depending on compression

Shooting day: 5 hours. 10 RED Mags: 10 x $1000 = $10.000

Full RED Kit: $14.000


RED + RED Volts + RED Mags = $26.000

Don't forget to think about Post Production! You need a workhorse to edit 4K footage..

 

[spinner]

Thanks for all the advice guys, really. It won't be just me paying for the Camera, it's 4 of us, we've ran some numbers already. We have a set of Jobs lined up, we'll start off working for film students(charging about $150-200) per shoot. Professional shoot's we'll charge a bit more. We have other equipment(t2i) and Unlimited access to a (5D). But coming from inside the system(film school, NYFA, NYU) I see how things are being run, how most of these student filmmakers think. We'll have jobs lined up. I'm gonna take out money for the rig(15k) and my other two buddies will handle the rest(10k) so we'll have the complete setup.

Okay, a couple of things.....


First:
I've said this before, I'll say it again: The RED camera for an indie filmmaker - who is USUALLY BROKE - is financially IMPRACTICAL. I know everyone wants a RED camera but the $15K you are spending for the most part doesn't even include the lens. PLUS, from most people I've talked to, the RED is a buggy camera. Since you've just gotten out of film school, you may know more than I about this camera, but from what I hear its a whole different animal than your regular camera and I don't mean how the video looks.

Secondly:
If there are 4 of you who are going into this business, for $15K, you could probably get 2 or 3 of the Canons with the replaceable lenses, thus giving you the opportunity to only have to upgrade the lens when the new technology comes along, instead of having to replace the whole camera. PLUS, if you go with the Canons, you have a 3-camera setup. If your business is going to shoot say a wedding, you are SO much better off with this setup than just one camera. What are you shooting? Any recitals? Anything on a stage? You need 2-3 cameras for that setup. I don't care what the camera is, one camera - one angle.

Third:
What about your tripods? Your on-camera lights? Your on-camera audio or separate audio? How are you going to edit this stuff you shoot? What edit system do you have on your computers? Don't you need batteries? What about chargers, XLR cables, lighting? Do you have any tape stock? You will need this stuff before you do your first job.

Oh, you spent it ALL on the RED camera.
Look, I get it. RED is the end all be all and maybe you can afford it. Okay if you can, but there are alternatives. Find a camera with good features and a great picture and compare.

I would suggest get one of those 7D cameras before the RED, and you have NO IDEA how it pains me to even say that, but the pictures really are bee - u- ti- ful.

By the way, what CANON were you looking at?

-- spinner

 

[Alcove Audio]

We have a set of Jobs lined up, we'll start off working for film students (charging about $150-200) per shoot.

You say you've run the numbers; I'm sure you did it yourselves. $200 a day split four ways is gas money. Where is the $600 per month to pay off the loan coming from? Have you added in equipment insurance? What if the camera is damaged or stolen? Now you have zero income and still have to pay for the camera. What about liability insurance? If the camera falls on someone they could sue you for everything you own. So you'd better set up an LLC to protect yourselves and your assets. Has a legal professional vetted your boilerplate contract for loopholes?

You're hearing a lot of contrary advice, and probably a lot of things you don't want to hear. I run an audio post business. There are a ton of things I'm sure that you have not considered. I spend about six hours a week - not including marketing - doing all of the "unfun" stuff involved in running my business - the books, billing, taxes, equipment and software maintenance/upgrades, "housekeeping" (vacuuming, dusting, garbage, cleaning the bathroom), maintaining the web-site, research, etc. And there are all of the incidental expenses; HVAC, equipment and software maintenance/upgrades, insurance, communications (phone, 'net, web-site, ink cartridges, FedEx, etc.), housekeeping supplies (paper towels, Windex, toilet paper, vacuum bags, etc.), pads of paper, pens/pencils, CDs, DVDs, disk drives... Then every few years there's big expenses like a new computer and the associated software upgrades. The list goes on and on.

It's "easy" for me because I have no one arguing with my decisions, at least about my business. You have four people sharing the responsibilities. Do you all have a contract delegating those responsibilities? What if someone drops out? Does the equipment they purchased go with them? Who maintains the bank account? Who owns the business name? Even "stupid" stuff like - who is responsible for the gear every night after the shoots? Who does the maintenance? Who pays for the maintenance? Who takes care of the bills? Does that person deserve a few extra percentage points since they are running the business end of the business? If one person is bringing in most of the clients do they deserve finders fee percentage points? These kinds of things are very collegial in the beginning, but as the business grows the distribution and depth of responsibilities kills lots of businesses, the friendships fall apart and there is no paper work to back up dissolution positions; it can be worse than a divorce.

 

[AllanBourne]

You say you've run the numbers; I'm sure you did it yourselves. $200 a day split four ways is gas money. Where is the $600 per month to pay off the loan coming from? Have you added in equipment insurance? What if the camera is damaged or stolen? Now you have zero income and still have to pay for the camera. What about liability insurance? If the camera falls on someone they could sue you for everything you own. So you'd better set up an LLC to protect yourselves and your assets. Has a legal professional vetted your boilerplate contract for loopholes?

You're hearing a lot of contrary advice, and probably a lot of things you don't want to hear. I run an audio post business. There are a ton of things I'm sure that you have not considered. I spend about six hours a week - not including marketing - doing all of the "unfun" stuff involved in running my business - the books, billing, taxes, equipment and software maintenance/upgrades, "housekeeping" (vacuuming, dusting, garbage, cleaning the bathroom), maintaining the web-site, research, etc. And there are all of the incidental expenses; HVAC, equipment and software maintenance/upgrades, insurance, communications (phone, 'net, web-site, ink cartridges, FedEx, etc.), housekeeping supplies (paper towels, Windex, toilet paper, vacuum bags, etc.), pads of paper, pens/pencils, CDs, DVDs, disk drives... Then every few years there's big expenses like a new computer and the associated software upgrades. The list goes on and on.

It's "easy" for me because I have no one arguing with my decisions, at least about my business. You have four people sharing the responsibilities. Do you all have a contract delegating those responsibilities? What if someone drops out? Does the equipment they purchased go with them? Who maintains the bank account? Who owns the business name? Even "stupid" stuff like - who is responsible for the gear every night after the shoots? Who does the maintenance? Who pays for the maintenance? Who takes care of the bills? Does that person deserve a few extra percentage points since they are running the business end of the business? If one person is bringing in most of the clients do they deserve finders fee percentage points? These kinds of things are very collegial in the beginning, but as the business grows the distribution and depth of responsibilities kills lots of businesses, the friendships fall apart and there is no paper work to back up dissolution positions; it can be worse than a divorce.

600 to pay off the loan??? The loan payments per month would be under $300. Haha my massive student loan debt(50k) won't even be 600 per month.

 

[Morris]

Have to agree with Alcove about partnerships. Very hard to find good ones. I have taken several financial hits, but know others who have taken a lot worse ones. The more partners you have, the worse it gets. Make sure you get everything in writing.

 

[Alcove Audio]

$300 a month for about five years. In two years a new camera with twice the capabilities at half the price will trump your investment, and you'll still owe $11k on an "old" camera. I don't take out equipment loans I can't pay off in 24 months or less - that's only smart business, especially with the speed technology changes these days.

BTW, is it a personal loan? If so, your buddies can bail out at any time and leave you on the hook for the whole nut unless you have a contract. GET IT ALL IN WRITING!!!

If you are truly serious about this be smart and invest $250 for a consult with an accountant and another $350 for a consult with an attorney. You will learn A LOT!