cinematography Shallow DOF

Why do filmmakers care about shallow DOF so much? I know they are trying to get a filmic look, but what is wrong with the look of digital? When I think about it, I would prefer to have a full image showing the whole area I am in, not blurring it out.

Also, what are some good wide angle lenses for Canon DSLRs?
 
... if I use wide angle in my room it will look like a very shitty room - because it is. So unless I spend a lot of time/money on set design/props my wide angle shots will look quite meh...
Yeah, I'll readily concede the scenario you just depicted, if left as is, is "not good". :no:
I don't think you're using the tool in the proper circumstances.
But if a wide angle is used in the correct situation the results will be more favorable.


I just shot this entire video on Sunday morning with a 0.72 WAL, close ups and all. I don't think it looks too terrible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ34-CnQCzA


Right tool for the right job.
(Wrong tool for the right job ONLY if you know how to mess with stuff THE RIGHT way! :lol:)
 
Talking from perspective of a bum filmmaker (me :) ) if I use wide angle in my room it will look like a very shitty room - because it is. So unless I spend a lot of time/money on set design/props my wide angle shots will look quite meh. While if I use 50mm it will be a face of an actor and a bit of background which is much easier/cheaper to control.

So you're taking a bad looking set, and then choosing worse shots because of it? Seems to me like you're going in the wrong direction. Here are some better options:

Light to create shadows that can hide the emptiness of the room. Use gobos on your lights to break up large flat sections of empty walls with some texture. Or... wait, let me guess, you're not using lights either?

Ok then, set design it is. Go to a bookstore and pick out a magazine or two full of cool interesting photos, maybe something about southwestern architecture or gardens or surfing, just as long as it has lots of cool photos. Cut a bunch of the photos out, and hang them on the walls. Or hang a pice of string on the wall between a couple thumbtacks and clip the photos to it with wooden clothes clips. Or for a slightly classier look, spend $20-30 on one of those sets that comes with like 10 frames in different sizes and put the photos in those.

Go to a fabric store and look for remnants of interesting looking fabric, you should be able to pick up a couple yards for just a few dollars. Hang them on the walls with thumbtacks, either flat like a tapestry or draped to create a curtain effect. Alternatives would be shawls or large scarves found in a thrift shop.

While you're in the thrift shop pick up a few interesting looking knick-knacks, and maybe a big ugly painting in an ornate frame. One old snowshoe or a wooden tennis racket to hang on the wall. 10 random spoons. Maybe an old vase or two as well, and pick some flowers from the side of the road on the way home.

Also might be worth hitting a couple garage sales on the way home to see if you can find an ugly/interesting looking lamp. If you're really lucky and come across a cheap rice paper panel room divider thing definitely grab that.

If you've got a wood yard in your town swing by and see if you can get some old weathered scraps. Tie them together with wire or twine and hang some dead flowers in front and you've got wall art worthy of regretsy.

Now you've spent half a day and just a few dollars and you've got a whole selection of things to make your shitty room look a little more interesting. Throw in a couple lights, even shop or clamp lights with punctured foil in front to create some uneven light, and you'll be well on your way to winning the academy award for production design.

And if you need more ideas, watch some HGTV or browse some home improvement magazines for segments on 'design on the cheap'. Most of their ideas look great on tv or in a magazine, but pretty crappy in real life - but hey, lucky you, you're not trying to impress your guests, you're making a movie!

I.e take a look at Tarantino's first feature where he literally crams 3 actors in one shot and focal length is quite tight.

Reservoir Dogs? You might want to take a look at that again. Sure he crams a few actors into a tight shot - with a warehouse full of visually interesting space behind them. We've already established that you don't have that.
 
Sometimes you really want the nice shallow depth of field . When you want your audience to be fully focused on your character you want shallow DOF , deep DOF will distract your audience , not to mention that if you go deep sometimes it will look extremly unprofessional especially if you're shooting with DSLR .

Sometimes you need shallow , sometimes deep .

I think you can make it look pretty professional. Check out this scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU98uP7pXA8

Not super deep like Citizen Kane, but it looks pretty professional and cinematic without being super shallow.
 
So you're taking a bad looking set, and then choosing worse shots because of it? Seems to me like you're going in the wrong direction. Here are some better options:

Light to create shadows that can hide the emptiness of the room. Use gobos on your lights to break up large flat sections of empty walls with some texture. Or... wait, let me guess, you're not using lights either?

Ok then, set design it is. Go to a bookstore and pick out a magazine or two full of cool interesting photos, maybe something about southwestern architecture or gardens or surfing, just as long as it has lots of cool photos. Cut a bunch of the photos out, and hang them on the walls. Or hang a pice of string on the wall between a couple thumbtacks and clip the photos to it with wooden clothes clips. Or for a slightly classier look, spend $20-30 on one of those sets that comes with like 10 frames in different sizes and put the photos in those.

Go to a fabric store and look for remnants of interesting looking fabric, you should be able to pick up a couple yards for just a few dollars. Hang them on the walls with thumbtacks, either flat like a tapestry or draped to create a curtain effect. Alternatives would be shawls or large scarves found in a thrift shop.

While you're in the thrift shop pick up a few interesting looking knick-knacks, and maybe a big ugly painting in an ornate frame. One old snowshoe or a wooden tennis racket to hang on the wall. 10 random spoons. Maybe an old vase or two as well, and pick some flowers from the side of the road on the way home.

Also might be worth hitting a couple garage sales on the way home to see if you can find an ugly/interesting looking lamp. If you're really lucky and come across a cheap rice paper panel room divider thing definitely grab that.

If you've got a wood yard in your town swing by and see if you can get some old weathered scraps. Tie them together with wire or twine and hang some dead flowers in front and you've got wall art worthy of regretsy.

Now you've spent half a day and just a few dollars and you've got a whole selection of things to make your shitty room look a little more interesting. Throw in a couple lights, even shop or clamp lights with punctured foil in front to create some uneven light, and you'll be well on your way to winning the academy award for production design.

And if you need more ideas, watch some HGTV or browse some home improvement magazines for segments on 'design on the cheap'. Most of their ideas look great on tv or in a magazine, but pretty crappy in real life - but hey, lucky you, you're not trying to impress your guests, you're making a movie!
:lol: LOL! :lol:
IDOM! He ain't gonna do all that!
He ain't gonna do any of that!

It's a sh!tty room.
It looks like the contemporary Clampets' inbred offspring store their pot bellied pigs in there.
It looks like a psycho crazy psychopath lives in there.
So know what he should do?

Wait for it...

Wait...

What do you do with a set that looks like a psycho crazy psychopath lives in there... ?

You...

... shoot a psycho crazy psychopath film in there! :yes:
Ta-Da!

jumbled-conspiracy-torture-room.jpg


Now... about that lighting... :D
 
It's a sh!tty room.
It looks like the contemporary Clampets' inbred offspring store their pot bellied pigs in there.
It looks like a psycho crazy psychopath lives in there.

But that's not a shitty room. That's free production value gold. That's what you get when you throw all the stuff I suggested in the room!

I'm assuming when he says a 'shitty room' it's the typical 15'x10' four white walls apartment room, with maybe a futon and an ikea computer desk in the corner, one crooked halogen torchiere lamp, beige miniblinds on the one window that opens to an alley, and a raggedy 'Reservoir Dogs' poster on the wall. You know, the one that 3/4 of the characters in no-budget indie films seem to inhabit, for some odd reason...
 
I'm assuming when he says a 'shitty room' it's the typical 15'x10' four white walls apartment room, with maybe a futon and an ikea computer desk in the corner, one crooked halogen torchiere lamp, beige miniblinds on the one window that opens to an alley, and a raggedy 'Reservoir Dogs' poster on the wall. You know, the one that 3/4 of the characters in no-budget indie films seem to inhabit, for some odd reason...
Stop it!
Stop it!
You're making me cry! :cry:

THAT's a HORRIBLE ROOM!

In that case - DON'T SHOOT IN YOUR "15'x10' four white walls apartment room, with maybe a futon and an ikea computer desk in the corner, one crooked halogen torchiere lamp, beige miniblinds on the one window that opens to an alley, and a raggedy 'Reservoir Dogs' poster on the wall" SENSORY-DEPRIVATION CHAMBER!

D@mn.
Your parking lot is probably more interesting.

The space behind the dumpster behind your local strip mall is probably more interesting.

Hmm...

That gives me an idea...

I'm gonna make a FowlEggs video about the spaces behind my local strip malls. Using my WAL!
Muah-ha-ha-ha! :evil:
 
But that's not a shitty room. That's free production value gold. That's what you get when you throw all the stuff I suggested in the room!

I'm assuming when he says a 'shitty room' it's the typical 15'x10' four white walls apartment room, with maybe a futon and an ikea computer desk in the corner, one crooked halogen torchiere lamp, beige miniblinds on the one window that opens to an alley, and a raggedy 'Reservoir Dogs' poster on the wall. You know, the one that 3/4 of the characters in no-budget indie films seem to inhabit, for some odd reason...

First of all - THIS! :p
Secondly - lets not take it too far , all I wanted to say is that I would TEND to use longer focal lengths on locations which are crappy (no budget) when I can not spend enough time/money on set design.
That doesn't mean that I won't ever use a wide angle on a low budget or won't do set design.

What I am reffering to is this :
If you make a scale

Absolute 0 budget ( no crew,locations,equipm) - unlimited Hollywood budget ( more than x amounts of millions)
than the closer you are to the left ( no budget) the less will you tend to use wide shots indoors.


Also this is completely IMHO.

I don't think you're using the tool in the proper circumstances.

Cool video! :p
The whole point about wide angle was indoors usage. Obv in nature you want to go wide.

So you're taking a bad looking set, and then choosing worse shots because of it? Seems to me like you're going in the wrong direction. Here are some better options:

Light to create shadows that can hide the emptiness of the room. Use gobos on your lights to break up large flat sections of empty walls with some texture. Or... wait, let me guess, you're not using lights either?.......

Reservoir Dogs? You might want to take a look at that again. Sure he crams a few actors into a tight shot - with a warehouse full of visually interesting space behind them. We've already established that you don't have that.

Absolutely agreed! Great tips!
You can do set design on a low budget! And it can be good and impressive!
If you input enough time/money. However it is difficult - that why art deps get paid so much.

Take a look at no budget action/crime shorts - they have one main prop - a gun!
You can see a range of quality - absolutely realistic gun,semi-decent gun which you can't show a macro closeup of as it is not super detailed. And a crappy repainted plastic toy gun.

No matter how you light,color grade a toy gun it will be just a toy gun.
So in Hollywood you can have macro shots of engraving of Desert Eagle.
If you want to have this shot in your 100$ short (assuming you can't get a desert eagle) well,you can't.


P.S

About Tarantino,I was reffering to My Best Friend's Birthday the actual first film of Tarantino,which took him 3 or 4 years to make on a miniscule budget.
 
About Tarantino,I was reffering to My Best Friend's Birthday the actual first film of Tarantino,which took him 3 or 4 years to make on a miniscule budget.

Got it, and which, by all accounts - including Tarantino's - is a pretty bad film. Haven't seen it myself, but it sounds like it's not exactly the kind of film you should be looking to for guidance on how to make a good film.


Absolute 0 budget ( no crew,locations,equipm) - unlimited Hollywood budget ( more than x amounts of millions)
than the closer you are to the left ( no budget) the less will you tend to use wide shots indoors.


Also this is completely IMHO.

And IMHO it's quite the opposite, that was my point. If you can't do set design then look for somewhere interesting to shoot - and once you find it, show off that free production value with wide angle shots.


Absolutely agreed! Great tips!
You can do set design on a low budget! And it can be good and impressive!
If you input enough time/money. However it is difficult - that why art deps get paid so much.

But I didn't even describe how to do good and impressive set design on a low budget, I was explaining how to do something with very little time, money and effort. There is a huge range of options between hollywood level "set design" and shooting tight angles to hide your lack of set design, many of which are available to the low/no-budget filmmaker. I just think shooting tight angles should be your last resort, once you've exhausted all other possibilities. Filmmaking is more than pointing a camera at something and hitting record - spending an hour or so arranging junk to make an uninteresting room visually interesting is a key component of no-budget filmmaking.

Stop it!
Stop it!
You're making me cry! :cry:

THAT's a HORRIBLE ROOM!

In that case - DON'T SHOOT IN YOUR "15'x10' four white walls apartment room, with maybe a futon and an ikea computer desk in the corner, one crooked halogen torchiere lamp, beige miniblinds on the one window that opens to an alley, and a raggedy 'Reservoir Dogs' poster on the wall" SENSORY-DEPRIVATION CHAMBER!

D@mn.
Your parking lot is probably more interesting.

The space behind the dumpster behind your local strip mall is probably more interesting.

Oh, sure Mr. Citizen Kane with your fancy-pants shoes that let you walk hither and yon to these wealthy enclaves full of 'alleyways' and 'parking lots'. Some of us don't have any choice but to shoot in our 'sensory-deprivation chambers' as you so condescendingly put it - what about filmmakers without legs?!? Or arms?!? Or even a face?!!!? Bet you didn't think about them, did you? Nobody ever does... yet. But as soon as I get distribution for my latest film "Johnny Got His Camera" you'll all realize just how good you have it!
 
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Oh, sure Mr. Citizen Kane with your fancy-pants shoes that let you walk hither and yon to these wealthy enclaves full of 'alleyways' and 'parking lots'. Some of us don't have any choice but to shoot in our 'sensory-deprivation chambers' as you so condescendingly put it - what about filmmakers without legs?!? Or arms?!? Or even a face?!!!? Bet you didn't think about them, did you? Nobody ever does... yet. But as soon as I get distribution for my latest film "Johnny Got His Camera" you'll all realize just how good you have it!
I feel so bad, now.

I also forgot about all those deaf, dumb, and blind filmmakers.

I'm gonna go film my shotgun suicide now inside my 15x10' white walled D-luks apartment.
I'm titling it 'A Splash of Color'.

Just post your back account & routing numbers and I'll make you the beneficiary of the resulting proceeds from distribution rights.

Lemme go start a crowdfunding campaign to buy a shotgun and a Vivitar camera. :blush:
 
Stop it!
Stop it!
You're making me cry! :cry:

THAT's a HORRIBLE ROOM!

In that case - DON'T SHOOT IN YOUR "15'x10' four white walls apartment room, with maybe a futon and an ikea computer desk in the corner, one crooked halogen torchiere lamp, beige miniblinds on the one window that opens to an alley, and a raggedy 'Reservoir Dogs' poster on the wall" SENSORY-DEPRIVATION CHAMBER!

D@mn.
Your parking lot is probably more interesting.

The space behind the dumpster behind your local strip mall is probably more interesting.

Hmm...

That gives me an idea...

I'm gonna make a FowlEggs video about the spaces behind my local strip malls. Using my WAL!
Muah-ha-ha-ha! :evil:

Renders...

"0.72 wide angle lens exploration of service areas behind strip malls and some neglected businesses as interesting story location alternatives to sterile 15x10' apartment sensory deprivation chambers."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE3Vfg4WfsM
 
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Service Areas: 03

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pcz3rB_zLm0

Wow! I didn't know I walked with a limp. LOL!
Maybe I injured my leg and forgot about it.
I dunno.
Anyways...

Need to swish hips like a girl more.
Slow down the pans.
CONSTANTLY pay attention to level. Good grief!
 
Shallow DOF is popular simply because up until a few years ago it was nearly impossible to achieve on a low budget. It's a tool like any other, but for most low budget filmmakers it's the newest, coolest tool they've got so it's natural it's going to get the most use. A couple more years and it'll become less common as everyone moves on to manipulating dynamic range in odd ways with their new raw cameras.

That said, it's usefulness is in helping to convey the impression of a 3D space in a 2D medium. You can also use lighting and perspective toward the same goal, generally you'll combine the three in some way to achieve the look you're going for. While it seems like people may be getting tired of the super-shallow look, it's important to remember that the alternative is not deep depth of field. There's not an on/off switch between deep and shallow - there's an entire range that can be used to great effect; try working in the f/4-8 range where your background still softens up but doesn't just become a smear of colors.

It's not just indie films that are doing it though. Several Hollywood movies now are using shallow DOF too like never before. So why would they be interested in playing with a toy so much that is old news to them?
 
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