Serious Questions Regarding Older Movies (early 90's)

M

Mrvn

Hi, sorry for the newbie stat, I have been following for some time, but a few questions have sprung up in my head and wanted to ask:

What Camera's, Lenses, Boom Mic/Sound Gear did the following movies use:

- Goodfellas,
- A Bronx Tale
- Casino
- Pulp Fiction

Also, can anyone verify if any dubbing was made to record over the original sounds (i.e voices) in a studio? This is the most important thing for me. I have always wondered how the old school directors/editors could get the audio to sound so crisp... Like, if you were to use a basic mic, it will pick up a ridiculous amount of pitch and eco... Yet in the movies this is a no-no. I was wondering if they used some sort of software that would block out specific sounds, or balance them out or something. Taking Pulp Fiction for example, did they use dub overs, or was it all original from the set?

Also, I really want to know how to capture the "atmosphere" that was used in the movies above. They always had this kind of... Different look to it, that modern movies can never adopt from. Even The original directors above, like Tarantino and Scorsese in there recent films could never make it look "warn" or how should I saw... With a gold-ish sunset glow look that they used for their older movies, i.e Goodfellas. I can't explain it, but I could only presume it had to do with the old school cameras they used.

As mentioned, these are only questions for now, I haven't even taken up film school yet, but I am a very big movie buff and ever since a young age love watching movies really closely and inspecting every detail of it. I am in love with movies like the above, as they always had something that no modern movie can capture. And I'm on the hunt to find out what it was.

Regards.
 
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Welcome to indietalk!

Goodfellas - Arriflex 35 BL4S with Arri lenses.
Casino - Panavision Panaflex with Panavision Primo Lenses
Pulp Fiction - Panavision with Panavision lenses

Just to be picky (and technical) the directors/editors don’t get
the audio to sound so crisp. that is the job of very talented,
skilled audio personal. From the on set recordist to the sound
editors, foley recordists and mixers.

Much of the dialogue you hear in movies isn’t the audio recorded
on set or location. It is recorded in a studio during post
production. The process is called ADR.

Regarding the look; each director and director of photography
tries for a specific look for each of the movies they make. It has
much to do with the camera, but that’s only part of it. The
lighting, film stock and color correction is a very important part of the
final look.

For example, Pulp Fiction, Death Proof, Kill Bill and Inglorious
Bastards were shot with Panavision cameras and lenses. Casino,
The Aviator and Shutter Island were all shot with Panavision
cameras and lenses. On Shutter Island, Robert Richardson even
shot some scenes with the Arriflex 756 - the most recent version
of the Arri used on Goodfellas. You may find it interesting that
Richardson also shot Casino, Kill Bill, The Aviator and Inglorious
Bastards. Same DP, same directors; different looks.
 
directorik said:
Welcome to indietalk!

Goodfellas - Arriflex 35 BL4S with Arri lenses.
Casino - Panavision Panaflex with Panavision Primo Lenses
Pulp Fiction - Panavision with Panavision lenses

Just to be picky (and technical) the directors/editors don’t get
the audio to sound so crisp. that is the job of very talented,
skilled audio personal. From the on set recordist to the sound
editors, foley recordists and mixers.

Much of the dialogue you hear in movies isn’t the audio recorded
on set or location. It is recorded in a studio during post
production. The process is called ADR.

Regarding the look; each director and director of photography
tries for a specific look for each of the movies they make. It has
much to do with the camera, but that’s only part of it. The
lighting, film stock and color correction is a very important part of the
final look.
Click to expand...

Hi, and thank you over and over again for the reply directorik. (I do wonder where you got the information from?)

Regarding Goodfellas: How would you be able to locate the amount of ADR used? Like for example the scene in goodfellas in the restaurant, where Tommy looks at Henry and says "Do I look like a clown to you?"... Was that ADR? I have heard of many modern movies using nothing but ADR, but I thought old school movies used the real sounds on set, that's why I was so amazed at how good the sound turns out.

Regarding Pulp Fiction: The start car scene where they are talking about the "Royale with Cheese"... Was that ADR?

Now, onto the main question regarding the "look" I'm after. (the non-HD look, which I hate in modern movies.) Lets say I was a million dollar director and I wanted to make another Goodfellas, or A Bronx Tale... How would I go about doing it? What Camera, Lens, Film Stock, Sound Gear and color correction would I use? I mean, the the exact replica of the movie, without using modern day gear.

I know its a far stretch with the questions, but I gotta start my dream somewhere I guess, and right now I'm really curious about the above. Thanks for everything, you've been a great help.

Regards.
 
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That scene in Goodfellas was most likely shot on a stage where
there is more control over the audio. I would guess the production
audio was used. Just an educated guess.

A guess, too, with the car scene in Pulp Fiction. In that
environment I would guess that the entire scene was dubbed.

The reason the audio is so good is because you have skilled,
experienced professionals doing what they do best.

Okay, if you were a million dollar director you would hire a
skilled, experienced director of photography to make the camera,
lens, film stock and color correction decisions. You would then
hire a skilled audio person to decide on the sound gear.

In the professional world the director doesn’t need to be an
expert in all aspects of a production. Directors do not choose the
fabric for the costumes, do not paint the walls of the set, do not
rent or buy the audio gear or decide on the camera and lens.

Now hold on everyone. No need to jump all over me. I’m not
suggesting that a director like Tarantino or Scorsese knows
nothing about audio and cameras. I’m saying they hire skilled
professionals to do those jobs. They leave those decisions to
their skilled and respected colleagues.

Mrvn, if you wanted to do an exact replica of Goodfellas you could
use a the Arriflex 765 or the Panavision Panaflex and test the
available film stocks with your DP. It can still be done today.
 
The history of ADR - and film sound in general - would take a long, long post. Suffice it to say that ADR (it was called looping back then) has been done since about 1928 or so, and increased dramatically when films started being shot on location.

Some actors are quite good at ADR, but on the whole ADR is almost never as good as the original. And god help you if you come across a talent who is completely clueless when it comes to ADR. (It was rumored that Brando would intentionally mumble on the set so they would have no choice but to replace his dialog.)

Tarantino is a fanatic about production sound dialog. "Ingloureous Basterds" is 100% production dialog from all the lead and supporting actors. Tarrantino will re-light, re-frame or even change a shot in order to get the sound PERFECT! From a strictly financial viewpoint the more time and money you spend on production sound dialog the more you save in audio post with ADR - which means getting the talent to and from the ADR facility, the hourly studio rate, the additional dialog editing, the time to match tonal qualities with EQ and reverb... well, you get the picture.

If you want some history on film sound along with a lot of other great articles go to:

filmsound.org
 
Interesting- I learned some stuff as well, thanks Directorik! :)


So, if the dialogue gets re-recorded in studios, thus that mean that most Hollywood movies, are "dubbed", even in the English language?
 
Okay, here comes the point where you really need to do your research and learn your terminology to avoid confusion later.

DUBBING is replacing the original dialog with a foreign language dub of the dialog. Most films have an M&E (Music and Effects) mix done so that the foreign language dubbing can be accomplished without a complete re-mix of the entire film. It's much easier (and, perversely, harder) in the digital age

DIALOG REPLACEMENT - known as ADR or Looping - is when the original actors have to replace their own lines of dialog after the scene has been shot due to bad mic contact, mumbled lines, noisy sets, etc. As I mentioned, Tarrantino is a fanatic about great production sound, and "The Hurt Locker" is another example of almost 100% production dialog. Then you have the other end of the spectrum; the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy was 95% ADR and most action films have a substantial amount of ADR as well. Period pieces almost have to be ADR for the outdoors scenes as it is almost impossible to eliminate all the sounds of current technology. It is becoming a common practice to ADR immediately after the scene has been shot; the talent is still in character and it saves a lot of time/money during audio post.
 
Alcove Audio said:
Okay, here comes the point where you really need to do your research and learn your terminology to avoid confusion later.

DUBBING is replacing the original dialog with a foreign language dub of the dialog. Most films have an M&E (Music and Effects) mix done so that the foreign language dubbing can be accomplished without a complete re-mix of the entire film. It's much easier (and, perversely, harder) in the digital age

DIALOG REPLACEMENT - known as ADR or Looping - is when the original actors have to replace their own lines of dialog after the scene has been shot due to bad mic contact, mumbled lines, noisy sets, etc. As I mentioned, Tarrantino is a fanatic about great production sound, and "The Hurt Locker" is another example of almost 100% production dialog. Then you have the other end of the spectrum; the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy was 95% ADR and most action films have a substantial amount of ADR as well. Period pieces almost have to be ADR for the outdoors scenes as it is almost impossible to eliminate all the sounds of current technology. It is becoming a common practice to ADR immediately after the scene has been shot; the talent is still in character and it saves a lot of time/money during audio post.
Click to expand...

:blush:

I have been humbled:) I've read about ADR, but I guess I'll have to read it again, as I'm not "getting it":

You re-record the dialogue after the scene(due to poor sound from the first take). So you've got your footage of the actors "speaking" the dialogue(but because of the poor audio it was cut). You've got your ADR recorded dialogue(I assume in a studio)afterwards. So "matching" the dialogue, so it doesn't look like a english dub Godzilla movie from the 60's, to the visual recorded image of the actor speaking. I used "dubbed' poorly-it's been a long day:lol:

Just wonder how much work it is to "match" that dialogue.


EDIT: BTW Alcove, this will really tick you off-Wikipedia basically says its a form of dubbing (Yea I know what a bastion of objectivity it is, but it's still funny lol)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubbing_(filmmaking)

"Dubbing" also describes the process of an actor's re-recording lines spoken during filming and which must be replaced to improve audio quality or reflect dialog changes. This process is called automatic dialogue replacement, or ADR for short. Music is also dubbed onto a film after editing is completed.
Click to expand...

So, if I went by Wiki's interpretation (and I'm a better researcher than that lol), I would be saying "well it IS a form of dubbing" lol


FInal EDIT: I finally found a place that I "get it" and yes ADR DOES sound like a lot of work, with the actor having to continually speak the lines to match what they are seeing on the screen. If I ever do a full short with speaking with a mask on, I would defiintely want to go to this route.


ANYWAY, back to movies in the 90's topic....
 
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Wiki is correct. If you want the time-line...

Replacing dialog was called dubbing or dialog re-recording, but dialog re-recording was confusing with re-recording (the actual audio mix of the film). Looping - because they would literally make a continuous film loop of each line and play it over and over while the talent worked to match and then record it - became the favored term for replacing dialog. The term Dubbing started to fall out of favor in the 30's with the beginning of extensive foreign distribution and "Dubbing" became the accepted term for replacing dialog with a new language.

When digital came around there were a lot of nice new digital toys that helped to speed the process, hence "Automated Dialog Replacement," although some argue in favor of "Additional Dialog Replacement." Most folks in audio post go with "Automated" to avoid confusion, as "Additional Dialog" is done by a "loop group" - a group of voice actors who provide incidental voices, do small crowds and Foley work.

As far as avoiding the "dubbed" look of ADR there are some very cool toys that help a lot; if an ADR performance is close a DAW plug-in called "Vocalign" aligns the ADR take with the original production sound take almost seamlessly. One of my favorite plugs...
 
Tinalera said:
Just wonder how much work it is to "match" that dialogue.
Click to expand...
It's a LOT of work and some actors aren't up to it. It
can be very stressing for the actor, the director and
the audio people. Very often the dialogue tracks need
to be rerecorded due to on set noise. Those action
scenes with wind and rain and helicopters generate
way too much noise to use the production tracks. Most
scenes shot by a waterfall or on the beach need the
dialogue replaced.

On the low budget end, I've had to ADR entire scenes
because I was shooting "in the woods" but we were, in
reality, very close to a highway - literally just out of
camera range.
 
directorik said:
It's a LOT of work and some actors aren't up to it. It
can be very stressing for the actor, the director and
the audio people. Very often the dialogue tracks need
to be rerecorded due to on set noise. Those action
scenes with wind and rain and helicopters generate
way too much noise to use the production tracks. Most
scenes shot by a waterfall or on the beach need the
dialogue replaced.

On the low budget end, I've had to ADR entire scenes
because I was shooting "in the woods" but we were, in
reality, very close to a highway - literally just out of
camera range.
Click to expand...

Learning alot the past 24 hours about sound, thanks for the clarification and edumacation Alcove and Directorik. I wondered how all that "clear" dialogue came about in movies. I know not next project(but the one after that) is going to have dialogue-no masks even ;). I guess for those of us who don't have the computer tech equip, it's a lot of hands on of matching vocal to audio track. Maybe I should have them in masks while speaking-save on the "lip reading" ;)

Thanks again....back to topic at hand! ;)
 
The stories I could tell about doing ADR/looping on
my films before I owned a computer.

I once cut a hole in the wall of my parents garage,
put a piece of glass in the hole, set up a super 8
projector outside, ran a cable to a mic into the garage
where I had a screen and ran the film. The actors -
all high school age - dubbed their dialogue and I recorded
directly to the mag stripe on the original film.

I have a laser disc put out by LucasFilm that has an amazing
demonstration of ADR for an action scene. I think it was
for "Raiders". Has anyone seen that? Know what I'm talking
about? I'll pull out my laser disc player (buried in a closet) and
make a copy if no one can find it. It's very informative.
 
Wow, you guys are superheros. Thanks, thats cleared up alot of things. I do have something to ask regarding T.V Shows useing ADR.

Did "The Soprano's" use ADR? If so, at what percentage? Also, if they were recording on a set, would ADR be necessary? - (In most cases, it shouldn't be... Should it?) I heard sometimes they would spend 50% of their time on a "set" and 50% of their time in real world.

(Also regarding Torrintino and his movie IB - When you say Production Audio, do you mean he used the real audio he captured when filming? - Sorry about that, I just wanted to clear that up.)
 
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Almost all TV shows do ADR. You can't get into percentages, it will depend on how often they are on location, which is where the big audio problems tend to creep up.

Production sound = any audio recorded on the set while the scene is being shot. So yes, Tarrantino used 100% production sound dialog.
 
Alcove Audio said:
Almost all TV shows do ADR. You can't get into percentages, it will depend on how often they are on location, which is where the big audio problems tend to creep up.

Production sound = any audio recorded on the set while the scene is being shot. So yes, Tarrantino used 100% production sound dialog.
Click to expand...

Wow, I wouldn't have ever thought The Soprano's would have used ADR... At all! The audio was so... "Real." Hmm. Does anyone have any behind the scenes of The Soprano's? You know, in realation with them in a studio recording/looping the audio?
 
It sneaks up on you, doesn't it?

Someone 20 to 25 right now was just being born or
five years old when "Goodfelleas" was released. They
were 4 to 9 when Pulp Fiction was released. That
makes those "old" films. And it makes YOU old!

As far as technology goes a movie 16 to 20 years old
is really and "old" film. Some of the film stocks themselves
no longer are made by Kodak. A 35mm Arri or Panasonic
would be considered and old camera.
 
Tarrantino is a fanatic about great production sound,
Click to expand...

I watched Reservoir Dogs a couple of weeks ago and it looked like there was a lot of ADR. Am I wrong on this? Was most of the dialogue production sound? Interesting.
 
Did you watch the theatrical release or his student film?
I didn't notice it in the theatrical release.
directorik, man it does sneak up on ya. I have 3 kids that took the SATs last week and people around me that think I dig classic rock just cuz my favorite band is Van Halen.
lol
 
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