Round 2 - Discussion, not announcement

Zensteve

Zensteve

Well, the first round went a bit odd in a few ways... quick recap.

We had 14 peeps definitely in, according to the first poll, before Round 1 was jumped into. Realistically, of the 14 commited peeps, I expected roughly 4 finished entries. (Not including mine). Now, that wasn't the case, as it turned out. Poke & Goat turned in a very fine film which technically didn't qualify, being over 3 minutes longer than the maximum length allowed. My own entry didn't count either, per being organiser.

That created a curious situation. It's also the reason why two films (that shouldn't) are heating up in the polls. A 30 second clip of two people arguing over who farted in the elevator and a voiceover at the end announcing, "The world may never know" could have won this by default. Not because it had a better story... but because it met the rules.

Now to the new stuff...

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Things to discuss before (and if) a second round may start. Many of these are my own views, and I'll probably miss some things that needs addressing. Bring it up, either in a post or PM/E-mail.

Competition Duration

Currently at 6 weeks (start to finish), with a 2 week vote period.

That is a fair chunk of time for even part-time filmmakers to get something finished. With the additional vote period, that makes a "big thing" roll around the boards every eight weeks. I think it's long (and casual) enough.

Film Duration

Round 1 was set at 5 minutes, max. I think I was probably influenced too much by Channel 101's focus on concise, to-the-point writing guidelines when I made that choice. Extending it to 10 mins is probably a good idea. Not that there is anything wrong with really short submissions... it just allows more freedom with scripting.

A "Set" Topic

We started with six random topics. They were picked to be deliberately broad. Goat & Poke took advantage of that when they made their comedy-style mystery. I took advantage of that when I made my was-he-on-crack-style mystery.

I'm pretty happy with the current random lineup. However, there are some peeps (so I hear) that would rather have no assigned genre at all. Would replacing a theme with a required line of dialogue be a suitable/acceptable substitute? Or lower the challenge?

The Prop

Cheap, affordable... required. Maybe background, maybe plot-point... depending on how the writer makes it work into the story. Thoughts? Easily replaceable with a dialogue substitute... but same issue as above.

The Votes

This is the hard one. The current sytem is obviously flawed in many ways, for a comp like this. It's especially hard when, with relatively little feedback, a single vote can cause a wide margin. The day that the submissions went live was the same day that we changed boards, as well... so the old "1 to 10" ranking went out the door, too.

There have been some various suggestions in other threads regarding how voting could work better, including "critical vs. popular" dual awards, and issues that deal with duplicate/mistaken votes. I'm not going to recap all the details, but I certainly want to hear what you think may help in ensuring fair fights for top-dog. This will be especially important if we end up with a significant set of entries.

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I would also like to hear from people that "definitely under no circumstances would ever enter this"... but have an interest in reviewing/critiquing submissions as a neutral. You can PM or E-mail me.

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Depending on the amount of interest this generates, there may or may not be a Round 2. I would like there to be... but there are no guarantees in life. :cool:

Here are the things to think about, in short:

Competition Duration
Film Duration
Random Topics
The Prop
Voting
Click to expand...

Obviously there will be thoughts and suggestions that do not fit with these topics... but are relevant to a fun competition. Post them (or PM/E-mail me), because I do want to hear what can improve this great IndieTalk challenge.

Rar!
 
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I'm disappointed that I wasn't able to participate in round 1. I'm not sure whether I'll be able to participate in round 2, but I think this is a worthwhile exercise even if it's not really a competition.

In response to Zensteve's points, let me say this:

Competition Duration: Six weeks for competition is ideal. Longer or shorter timeframes present their own set of unique complications.

Film Duration: I'd prefer to see this extended to 10 minutes. Remember, this is an upward limit, so anything 10 minutes or under qualifies. In writing the script for round 1, I found it a challenge to trim down to 5 minutes.

Random Topics: Keep the topic as a broad genre. Round 1's topic "mystery" provided a wide range. In the absence of topics, voting may swing toward a viewer's favorite genre rather than on the merits of each submission.

The Prop: An unambiguous prop keeps us honest. The "gum" prop from round 1 was easy enough to work into a scene - at least I found it so. Keep the prop simple and low cost and everyone should be able to manage it.

Voting: Expand the voting into categories. Not too many, mind you, like the Academy Awards ("Best use of foreign language curses in a documentary..."). Using a point system in multiple categories will end up with an overall "winner" anyway.

Those are my thoughts.
 
Competition Duration

I think it is fine as it stands. It's a good amount of time for anyone to make a short DV film.

And remember, this was the initial round, and at least we had some entries. We could have had no entries. Things like this can take a few tries to start rolling. More entries would have been nice, but so would finding a million dollar bill in the park ...

Film Duration

I vote for 10 minutes. It's not to short not to long. If you can't get a film under ten minutes then it must be a freakin' work of art, and must be too good for the likes of us mortals.

We could have cut BARK down to five, but we would have been cutting out some of our favorite parts (the P.S. and the BARK WITHOUT THE BITE opening - some would say we should have cut the latter, but we love it). In hindsight, I wish we had made a "competition entry" and then linked to an "extended edition" later, but it should be noted that we offered to have our entry be an unofficial one like Zen's was supposed to be. How funny is it that the two films that should have been unofficial are now duking it out?

A "Set" Topic
&
The Prop

I think the broad genre and the props are fine as they are, but I wouldn't mind seeing a third requirement like the line. I think adding the line would make it more interesting and further protect against wrongful entries.

The Votes

This is the only one I see as a real problem. The current process is just too random and easily beaten.

I like the idea of having a panel of judges handpicked by Indie that votes for "Best Entry", and then having an "Audience Award" for the entry that gets the most poll votes. Now, someone could still fudge and win the AA, but the winner of the BE would know that the award was real and not erroneous. Plus, the judges would give critques and comments about why they chose the film; this could be set up in a judges forum.

In closing ...

If I can pass on any useful knowledge to those thinking of enetering Round 2, let me pass this on:

Doing this competition was a blast!!!

One thing we all must remember about filmmaking (and life in general) is to do it for the fun of it. If you enter Round 2, you'll have fun. Even if you don't win, it'll be fun. So enter.

Poke
 
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I really agree with the points that have already been said. 10min or less is a good time period. The 6 week production should be enough time. The prop and gerne are good as you get to experiment with things you might not normally do in "your" short film. The voting could be done by an panel/judges, just like a normal film fest does. Indie would have to pick such people and so on.

I AM entering this one. Reason being is that I saw the 2 that entered before had alot of fun with it and again that's what it should all be about. I want to join in on that. I can't wait for round 2 to begin. Just my 2 cents...
 
I definitely want a round two, and maybe like a theme. Like the one guys(chris?) of "Mockumentary of a guy who thinks of bumpersticker sayings"

Something liek that would be nice.

Please have a round two so i can redeem myself for sucking at last round.
 
Actually, "Sticky Wisdom" was by Ahab.

It was for the NYC Midnight comp, which Christopher has also particpated in. Coincidentally, Christopher and I were in the same category for this year - Mockumentary about amateur magician(s)

My top-secret plan of winning by being sole entry was dashed when Christopher posted his completed submission. You can see it at his website, DreamOrphans

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Well, I think Round 1 has been a good test so far. Hopefully participation will increase from here on out. The only thing I can think of to increase entries is prizes, but I don't know what could be offered and who would offer it. Maybe we could find someone willing to donate materials to the competition?

Competition Duration - I like the current time set. It's enought time to do it and it's enough time to figure out if you'll be able to finish a short or not.

Film Duration - The only negative thing I can say about 10 minutes or less is this. What if, let's just say by Round 5 (if it lasts that long...I hope it does) that we have 10 or 20 entries. Well, if they all max out at 10 minutes, that's a lot to ask of members to dedicate over 1 1/2 hours or more of there time(not including download time) to watching shorts and reviewing them. With only 2 or 3 entries, it's not a problem, but a lot more entries, it is. And really, I think that's what killed Poke and mine's entry. It was kinda long for some people I think and probably best viewed on a DVD vs. Internet. (I don't know if anyone else is like this, but for some reason I have a shorter attention span when viewing internet movies vs. TV)

Voting - So if length and amount of entries becomes an issue, then voting would become an issue because I'm sure some would watch a few of the entries and vote without watching the rest. I think the "critical vs. popular" would resolve this, as long as the judges are trustworthy. So I'm for that.

Random Topics - I'm neutral on this. As long as some guildline is set, whether it be a Genre or just a theme.

The Prop - Prop is fine by me. A line to use would be cool as well.
 
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CommanderGoat said:
Film Duration - The only negative thing I can say about 10 minutes or less is this. What if, let's just say by Round 5 (if it lasts that long...I hope it does) that we have 10 or 20 entries. Well, if they all max out at 10 minutes, that's a lot to ask of members to dedicate over 1 1/2 hours or more of there time(not including download time) to watching shorts and reviewing them. With only 2 or 3 entries, it's not a problem, but a lot more entries, it is. And really, I think that's what killed Poke and mine's entry. It was kinda long for some people I think and probably best viewed on a DVD vs. Internet. (I don't know if anyone else is like this, but for some reason I have a shorter attention span when viewing internet movies vs. TV)
Click to expand...

Good point, I hadn't thought of that. But I think a judge would have to volunteer to watch ALL of the entries, and since the general vote will be for most popular, if someone votes for one without watching all, ti won't be as bad.

Poke
 
Some interesting opinions, so far.

Almost everyone seems in favour of a 10 min max limit... but Mr Goat makes an excellent point about the way in which these films are meant to be viewed. Online. At roughly 4mb per minute, a 10 min film = 40mb. You can count out many 56k viewers at that stage, for sure... especially if trying to encourage viewing of all entries. Heck, even low attenton span peeps on broadband can tune out with a size like that, especially if the server is being hammered and running slow.

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Prizes - Would be nice to have some real ones, but odds of getting some freebies to hand out from filmmaking companies are pretty slim, with the amount of entries we estimate to have. Still, it won't kill me to ask some places... and if anyone has some ideas, PM/E-mail me.

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So far, it's looking like keeping the prop, genre and adding a line of dialogue. Mr Rizien suggested adding a specific topic, such as NYC Midnight. Having been in that comp myself, I'm not so keen on that for here. It puts some serious brakes on... and will treble your daily dosage of antacids. :scared:

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Still banging out ideas on voting... It's really hard to come up with something that works well with a relatively small % of viewers casting one.

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...more thoughts in the morn...
 
The more I think about it I would lean towards sticking with 5 minutes as the maximum length. I know, I know. That statement is a bit hypocritical of me. I just keep thinking about the attention span of internet viewers and it makes me think 5 minutes is long enough for a competition with multiple entries.

By the way, if it wasn't clear before, in order for us to adopt the "panel of judges" system of voting we need volunteers. I have already volunteered, and we need I'd say at least five volunteers to adopt this policy. Also, if you are a judge you can not have an official entry in the ITOC, you can have an unofficial entry, but you can not win.

Poke
 
I think roughly 5 minutes is good. But if someone barely goes over dont worry about it, like if they just didnt want to cut something, or whatever reason...

I know on my hill i snowboard at, we had a camp for the terrain park, where the whole place was closed and just the terrain park (like skate park, but for snow) was open, so only people who paid(i won a contest and got in free) could ride the terrain park..but to get to teh point, they sent mail/email to a lot of the big name snowboard/ski companies, and they sent them boxes of stuff to give away. I'm not too sure the film industry is the same way...but its worth a shot.

I definitely want a round two, and i want it now!
 
I'm bummed I didn't get to submit a short for the contest, but I would really like to get in on the next. As far as the rules the way they are now I'm pretty fine with. I'm ok with a 5 minute film duration, but I don't want those who go over to be disqualified either so Im cool with some leway there. I just can't wait to get the next catagory and get started.
 
rizien said:
I think roughly 5 minutes is good. But if someone barely goes over dont worry about it, like if they just didnt want to cut something, or whatever reason...
Click to expand...
With this type of competition you want hard limits to avoid problems.
 
I'm in as a judge... once again, I'll be making a flick for this. (but not official one... unless it's the only lonely submission or there are no qualifying flicks, like this round).

Need three more for a panel, then?

Need be willing to watch all flicks and give all of them a fairly comprehensive writeup.
 
I want to get in on the next one. I think hard limits are good. Wiggle room can get confusing. How much wiggle room do you allow? I know I'm new here as a poster but I have lurked around for a bit. The limit makes it more of a challenge in editing and planning. Challenges can be good and bring out things you might not bring out otherwise.
 
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