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Rewrite rewrite and rewrite some more

Getting a bit irritated!! Just when you think you re done with your story after multiple rewrites, and promise to yourself "ok, that was the last rewrite" , you start breaking down the script.. And reading it .. And you say "hey! This should go completely different direction!" and find yourself starting up celtx or final draft once more lol

Just when I though I was satisfied with my story, I start picking on it and find a whole lot of issues and problems that I'm not happy with. Ugh!

I know that writing is re writing but DAMN son! I want to go out and shoot stuff already!! Lol

Does anybody have the problem or unable to stop rewriting?
 
maralyn, what the hell are you talking about?! You're not making any sense.

dlevanchuck just shared a common feeling among writers, about having a tough time stopping themselves from constantly revising a story, and you turn it into some sort of mantra about "writing" vs. "re-writing", vs. "re-drafts", and we're all "parrots", and if "re-write", then you never had a story, but if you "re-draft", then you're totally cool, and you even find a way to throw in a nod towards your hatred of character "arc", or maybe the 3-act "arc".

Your rants in this thread are pretty much meaningless.
 
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I was asking for titles of movies I might have seen that had their stories rewritten during production, and you post links for me to read.
You would have to "read" the titles of the movies you might have seen, right? :yes:
And hopefully you would like to see some credible evidence that those titles to movies you might have seen had actually been changed during production, right?
And to not limit ourselves to just a short list off the tops of our heads, I suggested that perhaps darn near all films you have seen "underwent story changes during production."

Will you please provide titles to films we may have seen which underwent no changes from script to screen.


Worse, you impose it on everyone who reads here.
No one here is imposing anything on anyone anymore than you are imposing anything on anyone.
There's only a few of us presenting known systems that prove consistently effective at production - this INCLUDES your own unique voice on the subject. :)
People are free to do whatever they want.


I find it interesting that you promote a polar view of literal usage of words such as writing and rewriting yet advocate a strong position of "You shouldn't be ganging up trying to FORCE people to agree with you, that's kinda weird (parot people) "arc"-"arc"....stuff. The internet has muddled you up into spam or something. You are not the Uberlords of screenwriting. There are no rules."

Use words literally - to - write with no rules?
Do I understand that semi-correctly?



Also, what is the first language or yours and your parents?
 
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If your story is so flimsy that you don't even know what the story is, how will you even talk to anyone about it? Oh, it exists, so, therefore it is?

That's a rather far flung assumption on your part to assume that a story is "flimsy" or "not to know what the story is" if it is being revised or rewritten.

Be honest--outside of your one experience in film school, you've never worked on an actual production set (indie or professional) as a production scriptwriter. You've never had to think on your feet with other screenwriters to make a scene work or revise a script to accomodate production realities.

As Ray said, I would venture nearly 99.9% of ALL films which you may have seen, have been revised in production. Because of necessity, not for the purpose of liberating the script from the film. I think it's more dangerous to have someone speak without experience about "there not being any rules", which sets up new screenwriters for failure.

Every field has gurus chanting mantras. And you're right, it's important to really consider what is being said. To say "Writing is re-writing" can superficially send the wrong message if just taken literally. However there is a deeper truth in that, just like picking up a rough, unpolished gem, a script often needs several passes before its true elegance is apparent for a spec script. For a shooting script, there is almost always a need to re-write a section to accomodate realities. Woody Allen's movies seldom follow the scripts; as he, as a director, gives tremendous credences to in-the-moment acting. And he would often change things on inspiration. In this case the film is liberated from the script.

Not to mix media, but there are too few Mozarts who can create perfection on the first pass. So we could say that "Good writing requires frequent revising for polished effect", but that's a mouthful. In everyday life we use adages or clipped adages, "Birds of a feather ...", "A penny saved ...", etc. They embody a collective understanding. Sometimes it's taken for granted that everyone understands the full message.

Re-write = altering, revising, re-drafting, re-working, adapting, 'to write yet again for whatever reason'.

I appreciate that you want new writers to be clear on what is meant by "Writing is Re-Writing". But in the context of the OP's question, it was more "As I'm preparing this script for production, I'm finding all sorts of issues that need to be addressed. So I'm having to alter the script to accomodate these new realities and it's frustrating. Does anyone else feel this way?" (My paraphrasing) And most of us have actual hands-on experience in that environment, and not simply the luxury of armchair lecturing based on an isolated experience from an artificial situation in film school.

Your opinions are welcome, but the members of this forum deserve respect not beratement. I've seen the stories, scripts and clips produced by members of IndieTalk, and they are not shoddy, "flimsy" pieces. Get off your armchair and shoot some of your own work. It's easy to criticize when you don't actually have to commit yourself or have extensive working experience on the set.

I've worked behind the scenes (video, audio, editing), in front of the camera (acting), on the sidelines assisting and, of course, as scriptwriter/editor. I find that the diverse experience informs my writing and the process. I agree that "Writing is rewriting" is a bit trite and cliche, but it embodies a significant piece of wisdom. To think "there are no rules" reflects an utter ignorance of screenwriting and the media industry.

My apologies to Dlevanchuk for hijacking his thread.
 
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oh, man, I've worked on a lot of films, back before I specialized in screenwriting.

I.... even got a Kodak Award for Best Achievement in Cinematography. Which came with CASH.
i.e. I DP'd for a bit.

And not once have I witnessed anyone rewriting their story during production. That's gotta be amateurville horror.

"arc"-"arc"

I mean, sometimes there's some dialogue that doesn't come out right, or it doesn't work if he runs in there and does that... but no one rewrites their story during production.
 
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Every field has gurus chanting mantras.



And most of us have actual hands-on experience in that environment, and not simply the luxury of armchair lecturing based on an isolated experience from an artificial situation in film school.

And, you are not a guru chanting a mantra, you are a devotee regurgitating a mantra. That's kinda different.

And I take offense to the armchair comment. I mean, it's obvious by your post count that you've been stinking up an armchair for quite some time now.
 
< There. That's me behind a camera.

And in case you've forgotten what we're arguing about, it's this comment:

For working scriptwriters on a production set, re-writes often entail substantial changes to the dialogue and STORY. .

Substantial changes to STORY?

uhm .... er.....crapity crap crap crap

So. Now I'm not only waiting for a title of a movie that has been through substantial story changes during production, I'm now also waiting to see a picture of you in action.
 
So. Now I'm not only waiting for a title of a movie that has been through substantial story changes during production

Production of Men in Black 3 has been shut down because of the script rewrites.

I assume that is If a major studio had to shut down the production, i'm sure there are some issues not with the dialog, but the actual story..

http://screenrant.com/men-black-3-set-photos-script-production-hiatus-kofi-88449/

PS. that gun looks suuhweeeet

Men-In-Black-3.jpg
 
And I take offense to the armchair comment.

I apologize for that. That was a mean-spirited comment on my part. Clearly you have skills in areas other than screenwriting.

While it's clear you put a great deal of heart into what you write, your advice is dangerous and misguided. Nothing you've said changes the fact that you've demonstrated no aptitude for screenwriting. "There are no rules" - Posh! That's a guru mantra. Something I'd expect of a creative writing teacher. Screenwriting is both an art and a craft. The craft side can be taught. The art side is something which may or may not develop. Having been an academic for over 25 years, I think in terms of transferring skills. While I won't discourage you from contributing because I do think some of your points are valid, I can't say that I would take what you write seriously with regard to screenwriting. While you may have a strong aesthetic sense, you show no comprehension of the mechanics.

Whether you call it an "arc" or "spine" upon which to hang "pearls" or "plot points", it is trivial. To haughtily suggest that it doesn't exist is a disservice to those looking for guidance. To argue that "grammar, spelling and format" are irrelevant when that is the First Gate of Hell that every script must pass through under a reader is utter nonsense. To quibble that "writing is rewriting" is somehow a misleading dictum when it is a truth of the profession--all works go through revisions and adaptations. To me, such responses reflect a major disconnect from screenwriting for the motion picture industry, especially when presented with many examples that disprove your points.

This is an independent film bulletin board forum on 'screenwriting'. The principles of good writing (what some might label "the rules") apply to shorts as well as webisodes, television and movies. Many readers here will be content creating good shorts, learning to write solid scripts, or want feedback on ideas for features. It's hard to predict where those efforts will lead. But they deserve to get quality advice and feedback, not be told "Do what makes you feel good; there are no rules". How is that helpful? While other contributors here may offer different approaches, they are constructive and based on successes in the industry. Not every approach works for every writer. And I firmly believe it helps to have broad exposure, to have many tools in your kit to draw upon. But to unilaterally say they are all wrong, that's absurd. Obviously you have a strong emotional investment in being right, so you come out with fists swinging when all you need to do is say "This is what works for me. You can try ...." instead of "You guys are Nazis and do it all wrong!" Mine and the experiences of others may be different from yours, but it doesn't make them less informative or 'right'.

If the forum readers do get on a set, they will find there's a difference between a spec(ulative) script and a shooting script. They will find out about interleaved pink, blue and amber pages if they work in television or movies. They will need to have formatting down to get it read by a studio. And yes, they will need to adapt scripts to meet budget or cast changes on the fly. When I comment to a post, I truly want the person to be successful in a realistic environment. And if it's just for his/her backyard project with his friends, that's fine. I have nothing against, what did you call it, "amateurville horror". Even if it's just to play with their new Sony Vegas or After Effects, it helps to set a solid foundation upon which they can build. They deserve professional feedback geared towards their projects.

The screenwriting forum clearly bothers you. And your contributions to date have been nothing short of sarcastic, contempuous, intolerant and absurd. Since your forte seems to be the technical side, your expertise may be better suited there. Perhaps you should contribute more to the photography and cinematography forums of the board. That is clearly where you have shown talent and received recognition. Regards.
 
Yeah! Maybe my screenwriting expertise should be taken somewhere else, and your screenwriting lack of expertise should rise to the surface of the cyber centrifuge just like all the other two dimensional banality on the internet.

No one makes substantial changes to story during production. That would be the worst possible situation for a filmmaker to find themselves in. Doesn't matter what kind of production it is.

*Just throw some ideas around, don't worry, they'll clean it up in production. Just drops whatever bits of fluff sprout off the top of your head onto the page, it'll all work out just fine.*

That's the process?

Anyone following your advice will end up chased out of town by an angry mob wielding baseball bats. .

I don't think you even know what a story is. Just like you demonstrated on the other thread, that you have no real idea what linear and non linear mean. You're just tripping, and unfortunately, anyone listening to you will have their brain minced up into a hamburger sized catch phrase that has never been used so poorly.

I have no intention of teaching anyone how to write. I am merely objecting to madness.
 
My stories never change in redrafts.

I thought you said that there are no rules, which I agree with. Why is it desirable to make sure your story 'never' changes in redrafts and why is it not okay for the story to change? seems to me that if that's the case, then that's some sort of rule.

My story changes as I write. Sometimes I think of something new, and in order to accommodate it, I go back to the beginning and make appropriate changes, so that the new thing makes sense.

Maybe that means that I'm not a writer. But that's okay with me. You see, I don't believe you have to be a "writer" (edit: by somebody else's standard) to be able to write. You just have to write; write the best goddamn story possible. If you are writing so that you can direct it within your limited budget, then write that story instead of the best goddamn story possible.

You see, there really are no rules.

I don't want to gang up on you Maralyn. I do agree with some of the things you say, but you package your arguments with awards you won. It makes your arguments appear weak. you should just give us your opinion. Sometimes some people will disagree with it. Because as you say, there are no rules. So they may not always be right, but you're not always right either. Cause there are no rules.

Cheers,
Aveek
 
Re-writing the story during production is risky, and for me foolish.

I spend most of my time outlining. Once I have a solid idea what happening between the lines, I feel qualified to write scenes & dialogue, each one telling parts of the internal story.

Having trimmed a couple scripts from ~160 pages to 110, every word, and every line of dialogue means something in the bigger picture. So, when I rewrite, I'm always asking myself "what's really going on here?" "Am I about to screw something up with this change?". My biggest worry is to add something 'cool' without thinking it through (paving over the drama to add a car chase).

In order to make changes, I need absolute silence and all my concentration, because every change affects the house of cards I've already built. Otherwise, I'm just typing, not actually writing.

Your results may vary.

Rok
 
ha ha ha

hi hi hi

:woohoo:

eeeeeeeeexactly.

Every change to story has a ripple effect all the way through.

Oh, and btw guys, we've made a few changes. You'll love them, ..... you know how the story used to be about a talking dog that goes to China to find his one true love who was kidnapped by evil raccoon dogs?

Well, we had a revelation last night, and now it's about a dead rat that comes back to life as a zombie and saves mankind.... from get this...... the PLAGUE!!!

Cool huh!

We can still use some of what we shot, with a bit of VO and fx in post, and a few dream sequences of when the rat first thinks he's reincarnated into a dog,. but.... unfortunately it means the schedule will be extended by two months, and... uh... the caterer has gone home, but, ah.... the DP says his mom will make sandwiches.
 
I thought you said that there are no rules, which I agree with. Why is it desirable to make sure your story 'never' changes in redrafts and why is it not okay for the story to change? seems to me that if that's the case, then that's some sort of rule.

My story changes as I write. Sometimes I think of something new, and in order to accommodate it, I go back to the beginning and make appropriate changes, so that the new thing makes sense.

Maybe that means that I'm not a writer. But that's okay with me. You see, I don't believe you have to be a "writer" (edit: by somebody else's standard) to be able to write. You just have to write; write the best goddamn story possible. If you are writing so that you can direct it within your limited budget, then write that story instead of the best goddamn story possible.

You see, there really are no rules.

I don't want to gang up on you Maralyn. I do agree with some of the things you say, but you package your arguments with awards you won. It makes your arguments appear weak. you should just give us your opinion. Sometimes some people will disagree with it. Because as you say, there are no rules. So they may not always be right, but you're not always right either. Cause there are no rules.

Cheers,
Aveek

well, I said "my" stories never change, I never said "your" stories should never change. I was trying to demonstrate that there are many ways to approach writing. I know a very successful writer who writes without any outline at all, and only about half way through has figured out what his story is, then he starts all over again. Right from the start. I don't know how he does it, I would find that depressing. But, whatever does it for you. I really don't think anyone can tell you how to write.

Do whatever the hell you want.

My big beef is with the notion of telling them it's okay to change the story *during production*.

That's going to lead them astray. That's telling them that story is an effect, or a detail. Something that's disposable. That's just irresponsible advice.
 
@Maralyn

Yes, I do agree with the notion that there shouldn't be major changes during production. Sometimes my dialog changes, but that happens during rehearsal, when I discover that when the actors 'say' the lines I wrote, it doesn't sound realistic, with regards to that character or situation. So I'll adjust the dialog to whatever sounds more realistic, but by the time I shoot, my script is pretty much final. But minor changes to dialog I don't mind. If something the actor says, sounds more realistic than what I wrote, I keep it.

I think your contributions are important Maralyn. Don't take your screenwritng expertise somewhere else. :)
 
lol, that's sweet.

Uhm, except I am actually a deadly dragon.

And I only mentioned the awards, and sales, to prove that you can get to where you're going without listening to ANYONE. In fact, they were the words that rang through my head for many years after seeing a documentary about Woody Allen.

He said: "I only pretend to listen to the people around me. I smile, and nod, but not a word of what they're saying gets heard."

I think a bit of that helps. To just learn to trust yourself. To let it come from you, and not let everyone else clutter it up.

But I'll drop in from time to time. And yell a bit.
 
And now you're waggling this thread under my nose like a tail.

Writing is not rewriting. Writing is writing. If it were rewriting, then it would be called rewriting, but it's not, it's called writing.

Stop paroting these inane catch cries and then embracing them as some kind of law.

You will be greatly aided by knowing roughly what your story is before you start. You'll likely adjust or redraft it, but it should still be the same story. Or you didn't have a story to start with.

Maybe before starting a story you should ask yourself, why are you writing it. What will it say, what will it achieve. How will it affect them.

My stories never change in redrafts. Aspects I focus on, or building on what's there, or a shift in something, but it's still the same story. The sequence of events is established in point form beforehand, and that always stays the same.

You sure do take things literally. The phrase "writing is rewriting" figuratively means that if you're going to write something great, you should be prepared to be in it for the long haul, because many revisions will need to be made. Would you like me to copy/paste the definition of "idiom"?

And when dlevanchuk said he was rewriting his story, I seriously doubt the actual story was changing. I'm pretty sure that in this sense, when he said story, he was simply referencing his short script, in general. I also seriously doubt he didn't at least roughly know what the story was, before writing it.

Later in this thread, you will pull out a dictionary to show us that, by definition, writing and rewriting are actually two different things. WOW, this is mind-blowing stuff! Thanks for opening my mind to the world of screenwriting.

I can't help but imagine that when someone tells you you have a chip on your shoulder, you carefully examine your shoulder, then correct them, explaining that the only thing on your shoulder is the sleeve of the black sweater you're wearing. Before they can chime in to say that they were speaking figuratively, you've already whipped out your iPhone to google the exact definitions of both "chip" and "shoulder", while reminding them that you've won awards in something completely unrelated to the discussion.

For the record, not only did I write this post, I rewrote it.
 
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