Recommended dialog levels?

[FrankLad]

What do you guys recommend for average and peak dialog levels in a film?

I've read -12dB average / -6dB peak but I've also seen other figures suggested (ie. -9dB peak).

This feels somewhat loud to me... especially for allowance of more intense sounds above this.


While I'm at it, what about music in film? In montage sequences where there is no competing dialog, what should the music be hitting?

 

[Alcove Audio]

When it comes to mixing for film don't mix by the numbers, mix by how it sounds.

You need to remember that -12db to -6db is not 50% louder; -6db is about 300% louder than -12db (if I remember my exponential maths right).

You also need to keep in mind that apparent loudness/volume is another issue to consider. A sound with an exaggerated hi-mid EQ (4kHz to 8kHz) will seem louder than the same sound without the exaggerated EQ bump as the 4kHz to 8kHz frequencies fall into the "annoying" range even though both are at exactly the same metered volume level.

Dynamic processing (especially compression) can make sounds seem louder even though the meter out at the proper levels.

If you're mixing for TV that's another story; you MUST meet the broadcast standards of the station/network. However, you can "get around" volume "problems" by using EQ and dynamics processing.

 

[FrankLad]

Great advice, Alcove! Thank you!

This wouldn't be for TV, so I'll go for how it sounds, in terms of volume.

Is there any sort of processing one would normally apply to sweeten dialog, as a rule?
I mean, I do some EQ in select cases. Like to roll off the low end a tad for someone with a deep voice - as an example.

But as far as running a Compressor or Limiter or things of that nature... Is there anything that's almost always done to film dialog?

 

[wheatgrinder]

I get the mixing for sound .. but isn't there some sense in setting a min \ max for your entire film? Maybe I was just raised on TV and expect everything to be pretty much the same volume. ???

 

[Alcove Audio]

Mixing is probably the most demanding of all the audio post disciplines. I fall in with most of my peers and superiors who dislike the loud and louder approach to mixing and prefer something more dynamic with peaks and valleys. Even a fun "bang-bang-shoot-'em-up" shouldn't be an aural assault on the audience.

Every rerecording mixer has their own approach to mixing. Some mix dialog volume almost exclusively with volume automation, others use quite a bit of dynamic processing, and there are those who use varying combinations thereof.

95% of the time I use very little dynamic processing on dialog by default; the low-budget indie production sound, even after noise reduction, is still pretty noisy, and compression tends to increase the noise significantly. I do use dynamics processing on Foley and sound FX, and sometimes even on the score; this way I can take advantage of "apparent loudness" so subtleties can come out without stomping on the dialog.

There is no formula for mixing; it's very much a knowledge and experience craft plus having the proper tools and mixing venue.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

This wouldn't be for TV, so I'll go for how it sounds, in terms of volume.

Therein lies your problem, how loud it sounds in terms of volume entirely depends on your amp/speaker settings and your room. The way it works in film is that you mix in a calibrated dubbing theatre with an experienced re-recording mixer mixing by ear. There are no numbers (beyond the room calibration), levels are controlled by the industry's professionals. I know this answer doesn't help you much but that's the way film sound mixing is done and in general it works very well, unless you can't afford a calibrated dubbing room and a professional re-recording mixer.

As a general rule, little or no compression is used on dialogue in film but this is not an absolute rule, it depends on the production sound, the voice of the actor and the artistic requirements of the dialogue. Limiters are never used on dialogue for film though.

You need to remember that -12db to -6db is not 50% louder; -6db is about 300% louder than -12db (if I remember my exponential maths right).

I think you're getting confused. The decibel scales (all of them) are logarithmic not exponential. As the dBFS scale represents digital values of output voltages, +6dB = double. So, -6dBFS is double the output voltage of -12dBFS. Output voltage is not directly related loudness though, loudness depends on frequency content and other factors, as well as output voltage.

If you're mixing for TV that's another story; you MUST meet the broadcast standards of the station/network. However, you can "get around" volume "problems" by using EQ and dynamics processing.

The new American (ATSC A85) and European (EBU R128) specs make it more difficult to do this. The concept behind these new broadcast standards is to aim more towards the film model, of professionals mixing in calibrated environments by ear. These new standards measure spectrum content and factor in RMS levels, meaning that boosting EQ in the critical band or using much compression will result in higher meter readings and necessitate a volume reduction, which wasn't the case with the older peak level TV specifications.

I get the mixing for sound .. but isn't there some sense in setting a min \ max for your entire film? Maybe I was just raised on TV and expect everything to be pretty much the same volume. ???

As I explained above and on another thread, volume is a human perception, not a property of sound waves, so it's impossible to measure loudness accurately. I don't think TV was ever "pretty much the same volume", which is why new laws were passed in the US last year to try and solve this problem of differing TV broadcast volumes.

G

 

[WalterB]

I guess you should also consider the platform it will be played on.
Most YouTube-watchers don't have the same equipment as a cinema.
I tend to use less dynamic range for online promotional stuff than for things that will be played in cinema.

For YouTube-stuff and corporate presentations I tend to peak dialogue at -6dB. This way it's not as loud as popmusic and you still have some room left for louder stuff. At the same time poor (low power) audiosystems aren't struggeling with a too low output volume to hear it.

Best way to go is get it mixed right by a pro.
If every project had budget for it, I would always let a pro handle it.