Question about shooting without permission.

H

harmonica44

There are rules about shooting a film production on the street and you have to pay large fees for it. But what if it's not a production and you are just practicing. I want to do outdoor tests with the camera and mics. And I want to do it in certain areas, like downtown at night, where it's easier for lighting. But the cops stop me saying I don't have permission to shoot a movie production. But it's not a production, it's just practice. What do you do when it's not a movie and you are just practicing and testing your equipment?
 
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How do your operations when "practicing" differ to those of a "real production"? And how does your wandering around with a bunch of equipment differ that of a "real production"?

I'm guessing that it doesn't, so of course you should be charged exactly the same as a "real production". If you didn't, all "real productions" would just claim to be practicing.

It may seem unfair to charge you, but, unfortunately, that's life...
 
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So, let's look at the difference between, say, a camera test/'practice' that you might undertake versus a full production:

Test:
1x Camera
1x Tripod
1x Mic with boom
1x reflector
1x Camera Operator
1x Boom Swinger
1-2x Actors
1x AC
1x Director

Production:
1x Camera
1x Tripod
1x Mic with boom
1x reflector
1x Camera Operator
1x Boom Swinger
1-2x Actors
1x AC
1x Director

What's the difference?

When you're a big production, there's generally quite a big difference between the amount of equipment and crew for camera tests vs full production, but at a micro budget level there generally isn't.
 
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depends on your country I think...

I shot in London, Paris, Valencia, Venice, Sheffield, Bournemouth, Exeter, Liverpool and never been stopped...

In London if there is less than 5 people and hand-held camera you're free to film without permission... otherwise you have to ask for the permission, if it's a small thing it is usually free... if it's production company thing then you'll have to pay...

Depends how your head works...

Film making rule #1 - film until you get caught... They won';t do anything to you... They'll just ask you to stop filming... Easy!
 
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Find out the local rules. In a lot of places there are technicalities that may let you get away with it - for instance in New York you don't need a permit to shoot in public spaces if you aren't using a tripod and aren't 'asserting exclusive use of public property' i.e. blocking the sidewalk or shutting down a street. But if you've got a 30 person crew I don't think it'll make much difference if you've got a tripod or not.

A general rule of thumb is that the less of a disturbance you are making to the public space the less likely you are to be stopped. Every situation is different though. I've shot in the middle of the street in SF with crew members holding up traffic when a cop rolled by - we just stepped out of the street (weren't using a lot of equipment, just people) and he nodded at us and kept going.

Personally I'm of the "it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission" school of thought. Just be smart about it, there are levels of forgiveness you don't ever want to find yourself asking for. I've had one situation which involved a dozen cops, k-9 units, crew at gunpoint and everyone ending up in handcuffs - we were lucky it didn't turn out significantly worse than it did. Just don't do stuff without permission that could be interpreted as requiring that kind of response.
 
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jax_rox said:
So, let's look at the difference between, say, a camera test/'practice' that you might undertake versus a full production:

Test:
1x Camera
1x Tripod
1x Mic with boom
1x reflector
1x Camera Operator
1x Boom Swinger
1-2x Actors
1x AC
1x Director

Production:
1x Camera
1x Tripod
1x Mic with boom
1x reflector
1x Camera Operator
1x Boom Swinger
1-2x Actors
1x AC
1x Director

What's the difference?

When you're a big production, there's generally quite a big difference between the amount of equipment and crew for camera tests vs full production, but at a micro budget level there generally isn't.
Click to expand...

You're kidding right ?

Why would you bring a tripod to a test session ? Or actors ? Or an AC ? Or a boom guy ? Or even a boom for that matter ?

Clearly, we don't have the same definition of testing. If I'm bringing the whole goddamn crew on a test, I might as well just shoot the scene..
 
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Okay I lied. We actually we shooting the real scene, I just said it was practicing as an excuse not to get kicked off the streets. Wondering how to get away with it, if it's only "practice". I will look into it more.
 
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TheArtist said:
You're kidding right ?

Why would you bring a tripod to a test session ? Or actors ? Or an AC ? Or a boom guy ? Or even a boom for that matter ?

Clearly, we don't have the same definition of testing. If I'm bringing the whole goddamn crew on a test, I might as well just shoot the scene..
Click to expand...

Well, it really depends on what you're shooting. If I'm shooting a real camera test, then sometimes I'll have a Director, sometimes I won't. I'll always have an AC. Sometimes I'll have extra people as 'actors' - they don't actually have to be the actors, but they might be a Producer or crew member who's standing in - I'm generally trying to see what lights and settings do to a face, rather than an object.

I'll always have a tripod.

I'm not sure why, even when shooting just camera tests, you wouldn't have a full camera kit and an AC. Sound will depend on what you're shooting.

If you define those few people as 'the whole goddamn crew' then obviously we have different ideas of film sets. Normally, 'the whole goddamn crew' for me involves ADs, Producers, a Gaffer, at least one more AC and possibly a Data Wrangler or Loader, Electrics, a Key/Dolly Grip, a PSM and a boom op, HMU, Production Designer and Set Dressers....

Regardless, even h44 should have most of what I listed on his 'tests' just as he would on his real production.
 
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For test, I'd go with my DP and eventually Sound guy and that's it. We don't need an AC, or a tripod, the DP can figure out everything he needs to know without any of those. I don't know how sound people do their testing but if he brings a boompole for a location testing, he's fired.
 
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As I say, it depends on what you're shooting - if you're shooting a teaser as part of your tests, all of the above equipment is even more justified. I feel like the sound guy would probably sooner quit than be told how to do his job by an ignorant Director..

If I requested to do camera tests and a Director told me I couldn't have an AC or even a tripod, I'd definitely be weary of the Director and would take my own tripod and call up an AC to help me out for the day.
It's all well and good if you're shooting on a GH2 with a pancake lens, but have fun even trying to build anything a little bigger without a tripod or flat surface to build on.

How the hell would you expect me to operate any of the shots without even a tripod..? Are we shooting a 'found footage' film? Cos that's about the only time I'd accept that, and even then I'd take a tripod to dock in between having the camera on my shoulder.


I'm not talking about a location scout or recce which sounds like what you're talking about. If we're doing a scout/recce, I'll take a DSLR, point and shoot or even just my iPhone and take some photos, but that's not what we're talking about here.
 
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ChimpPhobiaFilms said:
DDK is right. That will shut them up.
Click to expand...

Regardless, they'll ask you to move on.

On the topic of permission vs no permission:

If it's a micro-budget that you have no deadline to complete, then sure film one day a week until you get moved on. If you have deadlines, or a Producer breathing down your neck, or even a decent amount of gear, you're going to want to get permission/permits. Now, if it costs a lot of money, then maybe try and get away with it, but I know that a lot of local councils won't charge students (tell them you're a student) or people with a low-budget/limited equipment, or at least it will be a small amount. It's worth looking into. IMO, it's much better if you spend 5 minutes talking to a ranger/policeman, show them your permit and explain what you're doing, continue shooting and make the day, and make the next 4 days in the same location, than shoot for an hour each day before being moved on.
 
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jax_rox said:
How the hell would you expect me to operate any of the shots without even a tripod..? Are we shooting a 'found footage' film? Cos that's about the only time I'd accept that, and even then I'd take a tripod to dock in between having the camera on my shoulder.
Click to expand...

Again. We're not shooting anything. We're testing. We don't care if the shot is all jerky, we know it will be fine with a tripod. What we don't know is how the camera reacts to the place/light and for that, we still don't need the tripod. The only reason you bring a tripod to a testing session is if you want to test the tripod itself. And for that, you don't need to leave the room where the tripod is.

I like guerilla film-making and clearly, having a bunch people with you for testing a location (not shooting a teaser, you have a very weird definition of testing) is counter-productive.
 
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TheArtist said:
I like guerilla film-making and clearly, having a bunch people with you for testing a location (not shooting a teaser, you have a very weird definition of testing) is counter-productive.
Click to expand...

As I say, have fun trying to build a camera without even a tripod.


Many people have different definitions of 'testing' - the OP himself said he was 'testing' a scene.

Even if I'm doing camera tests, I want a tripod - even if I'm just shooting lens charts, I'm gonna need a tripod to get a static shot and to get the height of the chart.
If I'm doing lens tests, I'm going to want to see how the lens performs when pulling focus at different stops, and how it looks when moving. And not when it's moving shakily, assuming I could even hold a camera for that long without any support equipment (I'm not talking about a DSLR here).

Where do I put the camera when I'm tweaking a light? On a table? On the floor?!
What if we're shooting at the beach, and I want to test at a beach to see how it's going to look, how we might tweak lighting etc. I've gotta hold a 10kg Alexa kit on my shoulder the whole time? I've gotta facilitate lens changes in my lap, so that I don't have to put it down on the sand? I don't even have an AC to take the camera off me or facilitate a lens change whilst I'm holding the camera for him/her? No thanks.

Not all cameras are as light or as small as a DSLR, and not all cameras are specifically designed to be handheld - indeed, if we were shooting with an ENG shoulder-cam, perhaps I wouldn't necessarily need a tripod.

But if I want to test some lighting/shots for a scene and the Director won't even let me bring a tripod!

I'm talking about actual camera tests, not simply rocking up to a location and taking some shots so you can see what the location looks like. I'm talking about shooting some footage with some sort of lighting on a subject's face, testing the camera's settings, testing the lens, testing the lighting... Seeing how the camera/stock/lighting looks, even in conjunction with how it looks in the location.. takign it through the post process, seeing if it's going to cut together...

If that's the way you work, then that's perfectly fine, I have no issue with that. But that doesn't mean that others don't have other needs. You like shooting guerilla style, without a lot of crew and equipment. That's fine. But not everyone shoots with little crew and minimal equipment on DSLRs, and I think it's important to make the distinction if you're going to be giving advice. Sure, perhaps h44 isn't likely to be shooting on a RED, but he hasn't said he isn't. Also, he specifically stated he'll be using mics. As much as he may call this a 'test' it would at least be some sort of scene/teaser rather than strictly a test of say, a stock. I understand that's not the way you test, not what you'd classify as a test, but that's the question being asked. Similarly, even when discussing different tests, I understand you work in a certain way, but I work in a different way, so I'm going to have different needs when I do tests.
If I'm shooting DSLR, I might not take a tripod to a camera test, but it depends on exactly what we'll be shooting.

I could be shooting a test of some film stock to show the Director to convince him to shoot film. If I'm trying to convince him to shoot film, I'm not going to show him shaky shots..
 
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My collaborator was testing out his camera on a steadicam. It seems that works fairly good for walk and talk tracking shots, where as in public places, a dolly and tracks would not be allowed. I wanted to play around with lighting too, but we couldn't get anyone to come to hold reflectors.
 
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DDK said:
Tell them that you're doing a documentary on police corruption and ask them if they'd like to be filmed for an interview.
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LMAO! great response!

and to answer the OP, some say it's once you set up a tripod, if it's in a downtown metro area, there should be tons of tourists you can blend in with.
otherwise, pack a university sweater and say you're a student working on a class project.
 
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