Production question

[dvdguy]

Hi!

When youre in the production phase, you have scenes where the talent talks through the entire scene, meanwhile the shots change, from one angle to another, from a wide shot to a close shot etc... How do they do that? How do they maintain their dialog while the picture changes? Using narration?

Thanks

 

[2001 Productions]

It's called editing.

 

[M1chae1]

Hi!

When youre in the production phase, you have scenes where the talent talks through the entire scene, meanwhile the shots change, from one angle to another, from a wide shot to a close shot etc... How do they do that? How do they maintain their dialog while the picture changes? Using narration?

Thanks

This is part of basics, film making 101--which we don't mind (for the most part) answering here.

You should capture an audio track for almost every take (some takes you won't need sound <aka 'MOS'> a phrase originating in Germany sounding out like 'mit-out sound'...lost in translation ...well made up in translation...meaning 'without sound'--'mit' meaning 'with'), but for the most part you will be capturing dialog, nat (or natural sounds) and/or ambient (aka room tone). That is far more background than you need or asked for...why I put that all there, I don't know.

Basically you will either be recording sound directly to your camera via on-board mic or a boom and XLR cables (if your camera has an XLR input) or finally recording sound into a separate element which you would input the track separately.

Regardless, you will end up with a separate audio track. You will edit this audio track just as you would a video track--however, some times you will have the audio track continue uncut while your video transitions from shot to shot...you will always want to use the audio that was strongest for conversation...this usually is during a particular actors closeup.

You know what...this is a little too much basic info to cover. I'm even confusing myself. I'd get some books, or start reading some online tutorials.

Anyone else want to take a stab at covering what I didn't?

Good luck.

 

[directorik]

You will shoot the scene several times. The entire scene. For
example: Scene 22 is Bob and Mary sitting at a table - it’s three
pages long. You will set up the “Master Shot” - both people at the
table, camera getting a head to foot shot of both of them. On your
slate you will write “Scene 22 - Take 1”

Scene 22 - This will be the entire scene from one angle.

Adjust the lights, move the camera and shoot Bob’s side of the
table.

Scene 22A - Close up of Bob.
Scene 22B - Over Mary’s shoulder on Bob.
Scene 22C - A slow dolly push in on Bob - from a full shot into a
close up.
Scene 22D - an insert shot of Bob lighting a cigarette.
Scene 22E - a close up on Bob’s hand putting the cigarette in the
ash tray.
Scene 22F - a close up of Bob taking the contract, looking at it
and signing it (from Mary’s point of view)

Now move the lights, move the camera and cover the scene from
Bob’s side of the table.

Scene 22G - Close up of Mary.
Scene 22H - Over Bob’s shoulder on Mary.
Scene 22J - A slow dolly push in on Mary - from a full shot into a
close up.
Scene 22K - an insert shot of Mary putting the contract on the
table.
Scene 22L - a close up on Mary’s hand snuffing out the cigarette
in the ash tray.
Scene 22M - a close up shot of Mary putting the contract on the
table, putting a pen on the contract and pushing it to the middle
of the table.
Scene 22P - a close up of Bob taking the contract, looking at it
and signing it (from Bob’s point of view)

And this goes on and on until the entire scene is covered - until
all the shots the director wants have been shot.

Then when you are editing you have plenty of angles to choose
from. All the sound is in sync and if you recorded it well, with
no ambient noise, it will cut together as smoothly as the picture.

 

[dvdguy]

well said! So that's what you basically have to do This was actually something I wanted to clear for some time now. I'm still getting used to lighting, so I'm experimenting a lot. And then, when the time is right, I'm gonna move on to these sorts of things(editing). Thanks!

 

[devhaven]

Keep in mind that for editing to go smoothly, it is often important to film a whole scene from multiple angles, even if someone said the same line in another shot. This is called coverage. It will allow you to pick and choose your shots in the editing room.

To add onto what directorik said, once you have all of this footage, you will need to import onto a computer and use an editing program. There are many out there for PC and MAC. If your looking for a program, you should be able to find free trials of programs to use. Or if you want the basics, PC has Windows Movie Maker, and MAC has iMOVIE.

 

[dvdguy]

Oh no, I already have 2 programs! Sony Vegas Platinum 9 and Adobe Premiere Pro. Which one do you recommend first? I havent really edited anything yet, I first have to finish up on lighting and then move onto editing.

 

[devhaven]

Oh no, I already have 2 programs! Sony Vegas Platinum 9 and Adobe Premiere Pro. Which one do you recommend first? I havent really edited anything yet, I first have to finish up on lighting and then move onto editing.

I have used Adobe but not Vegas. I thought Adobe has its similarities to Final Cut Pro for Mac, so it was okay. Since I like Final Cut Pro, and Adobe Premiere Pro is probably the most similar to that, I would recommend that. However, there are a lot of people who use Vegas. Hopefully someone can provide some insight into that.

 

[indietalk]

Keep in mind that for editing to go smoothly, it is often important to film a whole scene from multiple angles, even if someone said the same line in another shot. This is called coverage. It will allow you to pick and choose your shots in the editing room.

Usually you would do a master shot, which is a wide angle shot of the entire scene, and then shoot the mediums and close-ups, but not the entire scene. What you need (according to shot list/storyboard). Well, that is the film mentality, maybe in video since you're not wasting film you do that?? Don't know.

 

[dvdguy]

OK, thanks Devhaven for recommending Adobe premiere Pro

 

[devhaven]

Usually you would do a master shot, which is a wide angle shot of the entire scene, and then shoot the mediums and close-ups, but not the entire scene. What you need (according to shot list/storyboard). Well, that is the film mentality, maybe in video since you're not wasting film you do that?? Don't know.

Well. It helps in editing. But your right, I wouldn't shoot every shot for the whole scene. Yes, on video its a more realistic approach.

I guess. If I were shooting a standard scene. Master shot, mediums, and close ups. I may shoot the whole scene from the master and the mediums...and if we weren't luxurious with time I would shoot the close ups near the end of the scene...or perhaps the mediums dolly forward throughout the shot into the close ups that I would want.

Keep in mind I am an independent filmmaker and this is only my approach. I guess everyone has their own way of covering a scene.

 

[indietalk]

You should know how it's going to be cut together before you get to the editing stage. If you just shoot the scene from every angle and try to assemble you're going to have more problems than if you planned it out with the coverage you need.

 

[directorik]

You should know how it's going to be cut together before you get to the editing stage. If you just shoot the scene from every angle and try to assemble you're going to have more problems than if you planned it out with the coverage you need.

That's exactly my style. I shoot a lot of coverage without knowing
how it's going to be cut together. It's never caused problems for
me. I enjoy discovering things during the shoot that I didn't think
of during preproduction. I love finding little things in the editing
room I didn't think of during production. I love the editing process
and having more choices adds to my creativity rather than creating
problems.

indietalk, do you storyboard and only shoot what you know you'll need?
I know Hitchcock did that. Didn't he say something along the lines of
the actual production being boring to him because the movie had
already been made in preproduction?

 

[devhaven]

I don't always shoot a lot of coverage. On my most recent production we shot what we needed for the most part but on some scenes we have a lot of coverage. The choice in the editing room is nice, but also can be troublesome. Having more coverage can save you from potential problems that may have risen with little coverage. I agree that shot listing and story boarding are very important in pre-production. It's good to know why you using each shot and at what point.

I guess another thing I meant by my post was overlapping. If someone opens a door in a shot, and in the next shot you want them walking through the door...it's important to have them open the door and enter / exit in both shots so you can cut it better. That was probably one of the biggest things I meant to communicate to dvdguy.

 

[indietalk]

In my last production I did not do a lot of cutting. I was into the long take, so that is why. Every shot was a master without intercutting.

I haven't produced anything in a few years now, but I'd do more cutting.

I should have phrased it as this was more of my style, not as it is what should be done. Film is expensive, so yeah, I usually know where the cut is beforehand and shoot it.

If shooting HD I would definitely rethink that, but I haven't had the chance yet.

I also know, from recodring records though, that a lot of choices can be daunting, but yeah, it's good to have them. You know which one is the magic one when you hear it.

I have been more active in the music biz as of late, and haven't filmed in a long time. One day.

 

[dvdguy]

If someone opens a door in a shot, and in the next shot you want them walking through the door...it's important to have them open the door and enter / exit in both shots so you can cut it better. That was probably one of the biggest things I meant to communicate to dvdguy.

WOW, that explains a lot more! With an example So the point is, that you should make a huge variety of choices and deciding which one suits the scene best? (go with the flow)

 

[directorik]

It’s all about style and personal preference. No one here is
“right” about coverage. We all do what works for us.

When I did a 22 minute scene in one shot, I didn’t do coverage.
When I shoot regular scenes - even those I know I’ll only use the
long shot - I shoot a lot of coverage. I can understand if in the
past having too much coverage is troublesome then your advice
would be to not shoot too much coverage.

I love to cover the HELL out of each scene. Even when I use film.
I love the choices it gives me in the editing room. So that, of
course, would be my advice. dvdguy will find his preference as he
goes along. That’s what makes movie making so unique.

For me I would rather have 10 or 20 or 100 too many choices than
not have the ONE shot I really need. Daunting is just fine with
me.

 

[dvdguy]

Thats my style too! Thanks for the advice

 

[Alcove Audio]

One thing that I have found from my perspective as an audio guy is that sound will not save you. As an example - which some of you have seen me post before - was a scene where the protagonist had a confrontation with one of the "bad guys" in an ambiguous factory type setting. The director wanted an "ominous machine noise" to heighten the suspense. However, there was no shot of the "ominous machine" so everything I tried just became a pointless - sometimes annoying - sort of drone. A shot of the "ominous machine", even something suggesting it, would have set up the sound.

I've worked on some truly awful horror stuff with the cliche "what was that" reaction to a sound, yet there was no definitive reaction from the characters - no suddenly they all look towards the specific point from which the sound emanated. It really diminished the impact of the sound towards which they were supposedly reacting. My biggest argument with such directors is that since the reaction is small the sound should be small, but they always want the sound bigger and/or louder. (We won't get into situations where the production sound was poor and there were no room tones so a subtle sound could not be used.)

I always try to impress on beginning filmmakers to think the project through as a radio play. What can sounds convey to the audience? What do the characters hear? How do the sounds and picture interact; or can they purposefully contradict each other? And don't forget the importance of silence. Also keep in mind sonic contrast; an unexpected huge bang after a few moments of quiet will scare the crap out of anyone. If the soundtrack is active it's more like a firecracker at a rock concert.

BTW, you don't have to shoot only the person speaking; reaction shots are highly effective, and ADR gets a hell of a lot easier when you don't see the mouth moving. B-roll stuff to set up sounds can make a huge difference as well.