Pre-Production Critique?

H.Z.

H.Z.

I hope it's not too annoying that I'm putting this in one thread, but I am doing preproduction for a feature length project and I am looking for advice on a few points.

A. I am currently planning spending all of my budget on audio (I have access to cameras). My budget is extremely small $700-$1000. I definitely want to purchase a recorder, possibly a Fostex FR-2 LE - 2-Channel Compact Flash Field Recorder or a Marantz PMD660 new from a vendor like B&H. Does anyone have any tips on which to choose? Anything I should watch out for? I'm also hoping that I have enough left over to rent or buy a 2nd hand Cardiod mic (I just have a shotgun) and/or a field mixer. If it's an either/or what would people recommend? If I only have one mic, is a field mixer really going to do a lot for me?

B. I am trying to figure out my shooting schedule. I know that it is highly variable, but does any idea what a good rough page-hour ratio is? Or number of set-ups to hour ratio?

Thanks! Hawk
 
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If you're going to spend the whole budget on audio, what are you going to do for lighting, grip, expendables, crew pay, food, etc., etc.?
 
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Thanks for the feed-back... I have lighting and grip already in place, and my crew is working for free. I am feeding everyone, but I am relatively sure I have someone who is will to donate that for publicity. As for everything else, the honest answer is prayer.

I have given the rental aspect a lot of thought. Where I am at right now is that I really want to learn how to do the sound aspect of film. I know that the right sound person can work wonders, but I am hoping to learn how to be that person. Me and a couple of crew-members have been working to build up our own equipment base so that we can do production-event type work for people, and so far it's been working out very well for us. Buut, I do understand the advantages of renting, and especially hiring a sound pro. If I were to hire someone, how would I go about evaluating their qualifications?

Thanks again!
 
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HZ. I noticed that to me it seems like you are going to try to record all the audio live at the shoots. I really wouldn't bank on doing it that way. For one reason shooting locations are hardly ever a controlled environment. Even inside a warehouse building you can risk losing a good take with just a truck going by outside or a plane overhead. Part of production is always planning for the worse and still being able to turn out the best product. What I would recommend is worrying about the audio in post and keeping your options of ADR recording open. I could see this working for you in two ways. For one you wouldn't have to purchase a ton of extra equipment. I would try to buy a decent boom mic and I would try to find an operator and an operator for a mixer. Then take the remainder of your money and put it to some other use for the film. This could be a number of things. The second way I can see this helping you is that you wouldn't have to worry about losing that good take. Make your actors nailed a scene but there was a truck that beeped a horn as it drove by. Well you can still keep the scene just record the dialogue later in a controlled environment. Now I don't know your entire situation and I understand that you want to get better with sound on your shoots but sometimes that means hiring a professional sound guy and simply watching him and ask him questions about what he is doing and why. I personally would try and delegate jobs. A good producer puts the pros where they need to be so the director doesn't have to do a ton of different jobs. You really should be asking yourself what job do you eventually want to do on set? Direct? Sound? Edit? Light? Produce? I understand you don't have a huge budget to work with and you may have to wear a bunch of hats on set, however, there are tons of people out there who are trying to make it in different areas of production. They may be thrilled to be asked to be on a set to help out with a shoot and then that is one more hat you can take off. Just my two cents and something to think about.

On another note from what I have read in the boards Alcove Audio seems to be an expert on sound. I would talk to him/her about some options. See if you can start a private or public dialogue on sound with him/her. I know when I work on my next piece that involves audio I am going to try to pick his/her brain. Hopefully he/she isn't offended that I said that about him/her but he/she seems willing to share his/her knowledge. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
 
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"What I would recommend is worrying about the audio in post and keeping your options of ADR recording open."

And I would strongly recommend against that. Most amateur actors have no experience doing ADR, and it will likely be a struggle for them. It's extra time, extra expense, you are still going to need room tones and wild tracks to fill out the soundscape of the film. Try and get good audio on set. To that end, I'd hire a soundguy who has his own equipment. You can most likely get a pretty good one for $100 a day or so. I filmed a 30 minute short over 5 days, and had to record one line of ADR because the actor was talking down into a box when he delivered his line. The soundguy recognized it immediately, and we just recorded a wild track of the line right on the spot. A truck going by, or an HVAC unit kicking on is just like an actor blowing a line, something that happens, you cut, wait til it passes and shoot the scene again.
 
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Brooksy said:
I noticed that to me it seems like you are going to try to record all the audio live at the shoots. I really wouldn't bank on doing it that way.
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Yes, there are many situations where it can be difficult to to capture clean production sound, but you should always make the absolute best effort you can to do so.

Brooksy said:
What I would recommend is worrying about the audio in post and keeping your options of ADR recording open. Well you can still keep the scene just record the dialogue later in a controlled environment.
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WRONG! You worry about audio from the minute that you start preproduction.

The primary concern is, of course, your budget. Let's face it, on low/no/micro budget projects most of your talent will have little or no experience with ADR, so their looped performances are usually not as passionate (for lack of a better word) than the production dialog. In addition, you still have to get them to the dubbing studio, feed them and pay them in addition to the fact that their inexperience with the ADR process will call for many hours of expensive studio time. There is also the fact that, if you chose your locations with an ear towards sound in addition to their look, and made every effort to capture solid production sound, your dialog editor can sync performances from the unused takes to cut around noise, mumbled lines, etc.

You may want to check out my blogs on production sound here on indietalk as a starting point.
 
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Sorry for giving some bad advice. I didn't mean it to sound like I was saying don't worry about sound at all. That isn't what I meant. Of course I think you should always try to capture the best audio possible, I just know that it isn't always gonna be that easy. Again I am sorry. I was just trying to think of what I would do in that situation. I never found ADR that difficult but I can see what you mean by working with amateur actors and how they might not be experienced enough. Thanks to the professionals for helping out and correcting me.
 
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Hey Brooksy... About the ADR I was going to tell you what I know you just heard several times... my actors in particular really aren't well suited to post production audio work. I think a lot of both my leads, but neither of them have quite mastered the do it the same every time thing. Aaand one of them has a little bit of trouble staying fully on script. ;p But I do actually have a friend who ADR's most of his dialogue, and it has worked out for him so far, so you clearly aren't the only one :)

I really appreciate your point about how much sound I can learn just by observing a qualified sound artist. I am still not completely sure what route I'm going to take - I do have a production start-up that benefits from any equipment I buy. But I have started to investigate sound-pros in my area, and am seriously considering that option.

Question: What is the average rate for a sound person? I know Gonzo mentioned $100 a day... is that close to what other people have experienced? Thanks again!
 
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The only reason you should ADR an entire film is if an intern leaves the audio files in a cab, you've called the TLC, and offered a $10,000 reward, and still no files! Okay now what? ADR. Oh, and kill the intern ;)
 
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Hey H.Z. probably varies around the country, but I bet you can find one for that. I used Craigslist. Some will want more than that, some will not have their own gear, but if you look for a few weeks, you'll find one. Just see/listen to a sample of their work. For somebody who has invested in gear, and is fairly new to it, but talented, a chance to get paid ANYTHING and get a the sound recordist credit will intice them.

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You might find one for less, give them, 'I only have X in my budget for sound....." Sell them on it's a project they will be proud to have on their resume, etc...
 
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Okay, so I am currently exploring all options...

But, I have a quick question for if I do purchase. I know that the Marantz PD660 , and the Tascam HD-P@ have a pretty large price difference, and that you typically get what you pay for. And I can tell that the tascam has more features, but what is the primary difference? What am I paying for? If I have limited experience is it worth the price difference? If not, at what experience level would it become worth the price difference?
 
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The biggest difference is that the Tascam HD-P2 (I've never used it) has time code/video sync, but according to the specs it has only one XLR input, so if you are using more than one mic you will need a mixer. The PMD-660 or the Fostex FR2-LE is probably the way to go.
 
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Here's $.02 from the new guy.... I've done audio for film projects and I have a multitrack studio here for music projects...................and even the occasional ADR emergency...

ADR is expensive and has a learning curve for everyone involved........ not to mention that it's time consuming.

If you want to do the audio:
Get a couple of decent mics, booms (plastic or fiberglass paint poles work well for no money),a mixer and some good headphones that cover your entire ear.
Gain stage everything, do a rehearsal and make sure your levels dont clip. If you have two or more actors in the scene separate the mics so you have the cleanest track possible for each mic/actor. If there is only one actor, use both mics but set one 3db lower than the other. If one clips, you still have a clean track.
It's difficult for the director to do audio too. If you watch an actor, you dont pay as much attention to the sound. If you listen to the sound without watching the actors you will get a cleaner audio track. This is why you see alot of audio guys looking at the ground or closing their eyes during a take. You will hear the AC unit coming on, the train across town, etc...

If you are computer savvy and have the time and free actors, you could always do the ADR yourself.... but thats another post.

Good luck.
 
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