One thing I hate about film festivals.
- Thread starter harmonica44
- Start date
Stealing someone else's property is up for moral debate?
You're right, this isn't the right place for this. Peace.
Copying bits and bytes is not stealing. That's my major beef with all the PSAs and rhetoric against pirating. It is definitely morally wrong, though.
It sits in a grey area between definitions one and two here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/steal
Now, bringing back to the original conversation (see? I'm not ALWAYS off topic) many film festivals feature films trying to get distribution. They're often not at the "trying to get as many people to see it" stage...they're at the "trying to get SOMEONE to pay for it to recoup costs" stage. With a festival that is NOT the first showing of a film, there's potential for some new ideas. Even a first run festival there's room for new ideas, but taking the film without asking what the creators think about your doing so probably shouldn't be widely embraced, yanno?
SOMETIMES illegal downloading has a happy ending for the creators. See Ink for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ink_(film) This, at least right now, is the exception, not the rule.
I respectfully disagree. If you are receiving a product that has a cash value and bypassing payment, it is what it is. If you purchase it, you are receiving a copy of bits and bytes.
Anyhow, off my soap box. Back to the topic and my apologies to anyone I annoyed.
I 'illegally' download some TV shows.
I pay for a TV license, I pay for Sky+, and yet I don't always get to see or record the TV shows I want to. Is it morally wrong for me to illegally download them then? I've effectively paid for them, I just didn't get to see them.
I also 'illegally' download all 7 Harry Potter audiobooks a few months ago. I justified this by saying that I have bought all 7 audiobooks on CD but over the course of the years they've become scratched and damaged and lost and I wouldn't be able to put together a full set on my iPod. Is it morally wrong for me to download this now? I've spent a lot of money on the CDs, should I have spent even more to repair my collection?
Not sure why I'm saying this but I agree with the person who talked about gay marriage (he obviously wasn't trying to pick a fight) in that the law and morals (which are person, by the way) don't always line up. Whilst I always try and avoid pirating where I can, I think it's up to each individual person to exercise good judgement there. Having an open and accessible world is a good thing and the responsibility for upholding that, in my opinion, lies with individuals rather than the law.
I pay for a TV license, I pay for Sky+, and yet I don't always get to see or record the TV shows I want to. Is it morally wrong for me to illegally download them then? I've effectively paid for them, I just didn't get to see them.
I also 'illegally' download all 7 Harry Potter audiobooks a few months ago. I justified this by saying that I have bought all 7 audiobooks on CD but over the course of the years they've become scratched and damaged and lost and I wouldn't be able to put together a full set on my iPod. Is it morally wrong for me to download this now? I've spent a lot of money on the CDs, should I have spent even more to repair my collection?
Not sure why I'm saying this but I agree with the person who talked about gay marriage (he obviously wasn't trying to pick a fight) in that the law and morals (which are person, by the way) don't always line up. Whilst I always try and avoid pirating where I can, I think it's up to each individual person to exercise good judgement there. Having an open and accessible world is a good thing and the responsibility for upholding that, in my opinion, lies with individuals rather than the law.
Theft is staking something without permission. You do not have permission to download a movie or music. That is stealing and theft.
I'm still not sure how that isn't a black & white absolute. Do you have permission from the copyright holder to download the movie from a torrent site?
Technically, yes you should have. Can you show me how the copyright holder is responsible for you scratching your discs? I don't understand the sense of entitlement that you feel that you are not responsible for what happened to your discs and that you SHOULD be allowed to just have it in any future form because you bought it once.
If you used a TORRENT site or any other Peer-to-Peer sharing, you were also giving free copies of the same thing away to strangers who may or may not have purchased the material.
You're using the word 'technically' because it's legally wrong, something I would acknowledge. However I'm not convinced that it's 'morally' wrong.
Is it the copyright holder's fault that I scratched my discs? No. However people like me who actually paid for the expensive CDs in the first place are the reason that that copyright holder has somewhere to live, a car to drive, food to eat...etc. I'm not cheating them out of a sale- I've already paid for the item they're selling- I just want a complete digital copy.
I don't think anyone is arguing about the legality of it, but as other people have said no-one is under any obligation to agree with the law. I think 90% of illegal downloading is wrong but I think you've got to look at it in a sensible way because much as a lot of people lose money from pirating, a hell of a lot of people have got rich by overpricing their products in the first place.
I used the word "technically" because illegal downloads is THEFT or STEALING by the technical and accepted definition of those words. They are defined by the act of taking or getting something without permission. Whether they are 1's and 0's or how easy it might be - it's still THEFT and STEALING.
So take your VHS copies of movies to Best Buy and try to walk out with DVD's or Blu Rays..... they will stop you because it is not only illegal (called "theft"), but it is considered by most to be morally and ethically wrong.
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I want BLU RAYS of Star Wars for free because I already bought a DVD, laserdisc, VHS, and video disc before that. Why do they insist on charging me for something I already own?
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You ARE very directly cheating them out of a sale. When you let your fruit rot, you don't get to go back to the store and get another apple for free just because you bought one already. Your own neglect of your own property does not entitle you to another free digital copy. You could have created backups (legally) or made digital copies (also legal). You did not. That is a situation where you are SH*T OUT OF LUCK and deserve to have to buy another copy because YOU scratched your discs.
Why do you feel otherwise? I respect that you have an opposing view, but I'm not seeing it's validity. I want desperately to understand your point of view.
And you as a consumer have the right to not pay that price, but it does not entitle you to download illegally. If everyone agreed that things are overpriced, they can drive the price down by not buying. That's the freedom. Illegally downloading is still theft, and no part of your argument changes the stealing of intellectual property.
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I can see your view but I think you look at this in a very black and white way, even if you don't agree with me.
It's not about a sense of entitlement it's just about the fact that we live in a very expensive world and sometimes, as a mass consumer, I don't feel like I should have to pay for something all over again. It's like using the loos at McDonalds. Yes, I know they say 'For eat-in patrons only' but I've spent a lot of my money buying their burgers so, even if it's against their rules, I feel like I'm allowed to use their toilets whenever I like.
I actually think that the way DVDs and Blu-Rays are being sold at the moment is shameless. The fact that a film like Transformers 4 was released without any extras, so that when they release the 'Special Edition' in a few months time people will feel obliged to buy both, is totally wrong. Look at the Harry Potter DVD issue and you'll see that people like me, who are fans of the series, are going to end up spending several times more than we ought to.
Also I'm not actually changing the format because my CDs would allow me to have unlimited digital copies as well. So it's hardly like upgrading from VHS to Blu-Ray.
But personally I feel like series such as Star Wars need to stop milking their dedicated fan base. But that's a different issue I guess
It's not about a sense of entitlement it's just about the fact that we live in a very expensive world and sometimes, as a mass consumer, I don't feel like I should have to pay for something all over again. It's like using the loos at McDonalds. Yes, I know they say 'For eat-in patrons only' but I've spent a lot of my money buying their burgers so, even if it's against their rules, I feel like I'm allowed to use their toilets whenever I like.
I actually think that the way DVDs and Blu-Rays are being sold at the moment is shameless. The fact that a film like Transformers 4 was released without any extras, so that when they release the 'Special Edition' in a few months time people will feel obliged to buy both, is totally wrong. Look at the Harry Potter DVD issue and you'll see that people like me, who are fans of the series, are going to end up spending several times more than we ought to.
Also I'm not actually changing the format because my CDs would allow me to have unlimited digital copies as well. So it's hardly like upgrading from VHS to Blu-Ray.
But personally I feel like series such as Star Wars need to stop milking their dedicated fan base. But that's a different issue I guess
I can see your view but I think you look at this in a very black and white way, even if you don't agree with me.
It's not about a sense of entitlement it's just about the fact that we live in a very expensive world and sometimes, as a mass consumer, I don't feel like I should have to pay for something all over again. It's like using the loos at McDonalds. Yes, I know they say 'For eat-in patrons only' but I've spent a lot of my money buying their burgers so, even if it's against their rules, I feel like I'm allowed to use their toilets whenever I like.
I actually think that the way DVDs and Blu-Rays are being sold at the moment is shameless. The fact that a film like Transformers 4 was released without any extras, so that when they release the 'Special Edition' in a few months time people will feel obliged to buy both, is totally wrong. Look at the Harry Potter DVD issue and you'll see that people like me, who are fans of the series, are going to end up spending several times more than we ought to.
Also I'm not actually changing the format because my CDs would allow me to have unlimited digital copies as well. So it's hardly like upgrading from VHS to Blu-Ray.
But personally I feel like series such as Star Wars need to stop milking their dedicated fan base. But that's a different issue I guess
I think it's also partially the consumers fault too, for choosing to buy the same thing twice. The company's are ripping them off, but they are the ones who are choosing to buy the same movie again, as well, and perhaps should wait to see which one they want.
Well the film festival took two months at least, so I won't be able to book that much time off work, nor do I know if they have a pass for the whole thing. But I'll look into it, next year.
I see this issue as black and white, clear cut - theft is taking something without permission.
I understand that you don't like the fact that things are expensive..... how does that justify theft?
So it's the studio's fault that people are not patient and will not wait to buy the special edition DVD? With Harry Potter explicitly, I have waited to buy until the "ultimate editions".
Your inability to wait is somehow either not your fault or justifying illegal downloads?
But the point was more that you DIDN'T make the unlimited digital copies before the discs became ruined. That does not entitle you to a illegally download copies. Granted, I personally don't have much of a problem with your exact circumstance, as in I would never convict or even slap a wrist in that trial of someone getting a digital copy because their optical disc stopped working.
I would be far more lenient in that circumstance if you borrowed someone else's optical disc and made copies for yourself. That would be a gray area. Downloading, especially via torrent, where you are also sharing it with others that most likely do NOT have the same circumstance is what makes it unethical as well as illegal.
I agree with you about Sky or television. I think because of how it is broadcast and if you are paying for it, then it's a little different. Sharing via torrent brings up the same issues - allowing others who have NOT paid for it access to the copyright material (like HBO or other pay channels) without compensation still applies to the law and ethics.
Anything broadcast over the airwaves seems a little more like free game to me.
You know what I hate about film festivals?
They're not worth anything, all they do is make a bunch of noise jingling around in your pocket, and they stink!
Oh, wait, that's not film festivals; that's pennies. I hate pennies!
How's that for a diversionary tactic?
They're not worth anything, all they do is make a bunch of noise jingling around in your pocket, and they stink!
Oh, wait, that's not film festivals; that's pennies. I hate pennies!
How's that for a diversionary tactic?
You have to admit, they're better than thumb tacks in your pocket.
Because the original person doesn't have access to it anymore. There's still only one copy in circulation, so the creator still has his due profit for the one copy. That's why it's kinda wrong to rent something, make a copy for yourself and return it. But buying the used disc from the rental store is different.
All in all, piracy is pretty detestable. People can argue all day long on wether or not it helps/hurts the industry but yeah, stealing is stealing. Even if you don't get caught or get your hand chopped off or anything.
My answer to a lot of indie film discussions; if you want to be successful in the industry you can't be a pirate. Who's going to hire you of nobody makes money off movies, who's going to write the edit software if nobody pays for it, and most importantly, you reap what you so. Do unto others as you want done unto you.
I don't need any more jail time, thankyouverymuch.
Media sales have long been shameless.
Some of you may recall that when the music industry switched to CDs, their manufacturing costs dropped -- by a lot -- yet their sales prices doubled. It was such a scam that there was a successful class action suit against the recording industry's price-fixing scheme, and they were required to pay out millions in the form of a massive customer rebate.
http://articles.sfgate.com/2003-02-23/entertainment/17479239_1_cds-tower-records-record-industry
So, who stole from whom first?
And if you think that this was/is the only incidence of price fixing or of outright industry scamming, then I have some valuable Kodak stock to sell you.
Just be conscious the pendulum swings the other way and the law isn't on your side. You realize as a filmmaker that units sold will directly impact you, right?