New Mac system

[legstud]

Hello all,

My wife and I are dipping our toes into the world on independent filmmaking. She is the creative force; me... I'm just a computer guy and filmmaking novice, so I get to set up the editing system

Anyway, we're pretty settled that we're going to use Final Cut and going with Mac. However, as I'm looking into getting a system (and being cost-conscious, of course), I'm coming across a few things that are making the decision a little more difficult.

Initially, I had my eye on a MacBook Pro with the following specs:
15" display
2.4 GHz Core 2 Duo processor
4GB RAM
256 MB VRAM
NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT with 256MB of GDDR3 memory and dual-link DVI
One FireWire 400, one FireWire 800, two USB 2.0 ports, one ExpressCard/34 slots

This was going to run me $1200-ish. I know it's not the best in the world, esp. considering the new MacBook Pro's have faster processors and more cores... but like I said, I have to be budge conscious. (FYI I have another monitor I'll be hooking this up to, so I don't need a huge onboard monitor for this.)

But then I saw two things:
1. The specs for Studio (see here). Note the specs for Soundtrack Pro and Color. They want multiple inputs/outputs for audio, and 512 MB of VRAM for DPX rendering.
2. The new iMac's are lower in price than the laptop above, with beefier specs -- i3/3.1 processor, 8 GB RAM, etc.

So, my questions:

• Do I need to worry about the multiple audio input/outputs? I didn't even see this option when configuring new systems (MacBook Pro, iMac, or MacPro), so I'm guessing this is some kind of add-on equipment?
• Do you think it's better to go with the beefier iMac and sacrifice the portability? I'm thinking of day-to-day use and convenience.
• Are there any other ports I need to worry about?
• What about the DX rendering? I don't know what that is, much less how that would play into editing.

Your thoughts much appreciated!
Tom

 

[Carl_McKenzie]

I have to say this software is quite advanced, not that I'm sure you couldn't learn it easy enough, but there are alot of different programmes avaliable for editing for much less. Finall Cut Express for example, excellent editing software at a fraction of the cost of FCP and brilliant for beginners.

I mean obviously if you have the cash then go for it but I would adivse going for something a lot more basic to start out with.

 

[DDK]

Personally I wouldn't recommend a laptop, any laptop, for video editing. Think about where you're going to be doing 99% of the actual work in FCP. I'm hoping your answer to that is at home.

In which case the iMac seems like the best choice.

Having said that, I'm with Carl above. I'd save the $1k on Final Cut Studio and put it towards a more powerful Mac. Add $1k to your computer budget and you can get an 27" i7 iMac. The quad-core and room to upgrade the RAM (never buy RAM from Apple, btw, they overcharge like a wounded bull, RAM is RAM, buy from a cheap PC vendor, same as HDD, and both are user-serviceable on iMacs).

RAM and CPU performance are important for video editing and that quad core will pay for itself in time saved. With an extra $200, you can get Final Cut Express 4 (although I'm betting you could get it cheaper from somewhere other than the Apple store). You might also want to check out what deals are available with various Mac retailers. The Apple Stores are very pretty, but they don't price-match and nor do they offer any deals. The resellers and big chain stores that sell Macs often have much better pricing and package deals.

Not sure about in the US, but I'm pretty sure the education discount works in a similar way over there as it does here. In which case, if you have a student friend or a faculty member of a school who is willing to do you a favour, buy through them; the education discount is about 12% off retail through the Apple Store Online.

 

[cameramonkey]

I'm gunna go ahead and say don't bother with an iMac and here's why, they have all the disadvantages of a laptop (virtually impossible to replace individual components, if the screen goes the entire system is fekked, in fact if *anything* dies the entire system is fekked), with none of the advantages (portability), okay, so it is kinda portable, but you can't use it in the train for example.

iMacs are good machines, my college has ~ 35 of 'em, but I'd recommend a macbook pro or a mac pro over an iMac any day.

 

[TheOpusFuller]

Personally I'm purchasing a PC to edit my feature on. I'll be passing on a mac.

* CPU: Intel® Core™ i7-940 2.93 GHz 8M Intel Smart Cache LGA1366
* HDD: 1TB SATA-II 3.0Gb/s 16MB Cache 7200RPM HDD (1TB x 2 (2 TB Capacity) Raid 0 Extreme performance
* MEMORY: 12GB (2GBx6) DDR3/1600MHz Triple Channel Memory Module
* MOTHERBOARD: (3-Way SLI Support) MSI X58 Pro-E Intel X58 Chipset SLI/CrossFire DDR3 Mainboard
* SOUND: HIGH DEFINITION ON-BOARD 7.1 AUDIO
* VIDEO: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 465 1GB 16X PCIe Video Card

 

[directorik]

I use the MacBook Pro for editing and have no problems.
I have all my media on separate hard drives - one for each
project. I do music videos and features. What I don't do is
much color correction with Color on that machine or work
with Soundtrack Pro at all.

So, my questions:
Do I need to worry about the multiple audio input/outputs? I didn't even see this option when configuring new systems (MacBook Pro, iMac, or MacPro), so I'm guessing this is some kind of add-on equipment?

I can't really answer this. As I said, I don't use Color or
Soundtrack often enough to have face multiple audio
input/outputs. I have, however, completed several feature
movies and over 20 music videos using the laptop you mention.

Do you think it's better to go with the beefier iMac and sacrifice the portability? I'm thinking of day-to-day use and convenience.

If you need to be editing on planes (I cut a project on planes
while traveling around the world shooting The Amazing Race)
and in hotel rooms often then the laptop is your option. You
know your needs better than any of us.

Are there any other ports I need to worry about?

None. Either the MacBook or the iMac will have everything you need.

I have been editing for years using both the iMac and laptops and
have never had any trouble at all. I know that PC users cringe at
even the thought. But I've been a Mac user since 1990 so I'm
drinking the Kool-Aid.

 

[DDK]

I use the MacBook Pro for editing and have no problems.

I completely won't question you on this as obviously you have experience that I don't, but I do have to ask why you'd choose to work on a laptop over a desktop?

Just the touchpad alone would drive me nuts for something with as much clicking as video editing. Do you have a lot of keybind's memorised? Do you use an external mouse? Do you have other bits and pieces that make it better to work with, like some sort of stand so you're not stooping or craning your neck? What about the colour and lag of the LCD (especially cutting action or explosions)? Do you have a lot of wait times to edit and compile because of the (relatively) slow CPU?

I mean, if you're on the run and you're a professional editor, a MacBook Pro I would see as being a must. But as a back-up machine for in-between moments, not as a main machine. It just surprises me that people would use it as such.

 

[directorik]

The surprising world of creative people...

I use a mouse and have most of the keybinds
memorized so I rarely use the touchpad. I have
never experienced lag of the LCD and I don't do
the final color correction using my laptop. I'm
sure the slow CPU would drive some editors crazy.
I don't have experience with a faster CPU so I don't
really notice. I'm sure a more powerful machine
would be faster. But I'm a patient person. My
assumption we're talking about seconds not minutes.

Portability is essential to some and unnecessary to
others. I use an iMac as my primary machine but
spend a lot of time editing on my laptop. Works for
me and I love it so I tend to recommend one when
asked. It's nice to have different opinions from
different editors, isn't it?

 

[legstud]

Thanks, all. Some follow-up questions:

@directorik -- so what do you use for color correction? And what do you use for sound, if not Soundtrack? I would imagine that if you do music videos, audio is a central. Do you do surround sound or stereo?

@DDK -- totally agree that better specs (RAM, processing, etc.) will amount to time saved. But realistically, how much time is it buying? Are you saying rendering time is halved, or what?

@Carl_McKenzie, @DDK -- you recommended Final Cut Express. Assuming you've used both FCE and FCP, what are you not getting in FCE that would be beneficial to editing a feature-length movie? I'm not opposed to FCE, but I do want to make sure we get everything we need to make a quality movie that we can show at film festivals and (prayerfully) get distributed. If you are using FCE, what do you use to sound and color correction?

If it makes a difference, we are leaning towards using the Canon 7D to shoot, which is HD.

Thanks, all -- very helpful info.

Tom

 

[knightly]

I own both FCE and FCS, if you're getting into a feature, I would recommend Studio (FCS) as the "Studio" it comes with are not all included in the FCE package. The difference is that FCE is geared toward folks making higher quality consumer products with consumer cameras that don't need all of the higher end stuff that's included with Studio, like color and motion... which if you're really going for making a feature, you'll want those tools... especially color.

it'll run fine on both the laptop and the imac... get more ram... RAM, it turns out, is not RAM. In the data center I ran, we pushed our machines hard (as video does as well)... and the 3rd party RAM we bought failed frequently... the RAM we got from Apple was the stuff from the "Passed the tests" bin at the RAM factory, rather than the stuff that doesn't pass all the tests, but performs well enough to be sold anyway... it's just cheaper because they know it's not as good.

Our stuff was mission critical and we couldn't afford to keep having machines go all wonky due to cheap RAM (which they did when we had the same, "RAM is RAM" attitude). We ended up respending a few tens of thousands on ram due to the failure of the cheap stuff we had hoped could save us money.

You'll also want both internal and external hard drive space.

 

[legstud]

@knightly - the laptops I'm looking at max out at 4GB RAM. I am thinking that should be ok. Not ideal, mind you, but enough to do pretty good. What say ye?

I do figure we'll be spending some extra $$ on HDD. I'm thinking 500GB should be fine for internal, but I know we'll be getting at least one or two external drives for each movie we make.

thx
Tom

 

[directorik]

@directorik -- so what do you use for color correction? And what do you use for sound, if not Soundtrack? I would imagine that if you do music videos, audio is a central. Do you do surround sound or stereo?

I always have someone else do color correction. It's not
something I'm good at or even much interested in. When
I do some limited correction myself I hook my machines
(either the laptop or the iMac) to an external monitor.
Frankly Color intimidates me. I also have audio people do
the audio. - again it's not something I'm very good at and
I always find dedicated audio people willing to work for me.
Music videos are easy. I get the final mix so all I'm doing is
the video part - the music part is done by others.

I don't use the internal HD for any media. To dangerous for
my tastes.

 

[legstud]

I always have someone else do color correction. It's not
something I'm good at or even much interested in. When
I do some limited correction myself I hook my machines
(either the laptop or the iMac) to an external monitor.
Frankly Color intimidates me. I also have audio people do
the audio. - again it's not something I'm very good at and
I always find dedicated audio people willing to work for me.
Music videos are easy. I get the final mix so all I'm doing is
the video part - the music part is done by others.

I don't use the internal HD for any media. To dangerous for
my tastes.

Thanks, directorik. So I guess once you finish your video work, you just hand the "final cut" over to someone for color correction? Or do you give it to them in bits and pieces? Just curious.

Thanks
Tom

 

[knightly]

4Gb should be fine for most that you do... If you start getting into 2k-4k resolutions and whatnot, then you're looking at maxing out the ram in a Mac Pro at 32G or 128G or whatever it is and a few Tb of HDD space... but I'm editing just fine with 1.5Gb on my laptop and 3Gb on my Desktop.

 

[Carl_McKenzie]

The only reason I mentioned FCE is because you said you were dipping your toes into the world of film making. I know people that have said the same thing about giving film making a go, gone out and spent £900+ on FCP and used it once and then left it which seems pointless giving the amount of money they have spent on it. You sound like you're pretty serious about it so I think FCP would be an investment. It just sounded as thought you fancied having a bash at making some little films lol.Deffinatley go for FCP though, it's SICK!!!

 

[legstud]

The only reason I mentioned FCE is because you said you were dipping your toes into the world of film making. I know people that have said the same thing about giving film making a go, gone out and spent £900+ on FCP and used it once and then left it which seems pointless giving the amount of money they have spent on it. You sound like you're pretty serious about it so I think FCP would be an investment. It just sounded as thought you fancied having a bash at making some little films lol.Deffinatley go for FCP though, it's SICK!!!

Thanks, Carl. Honestly, I don't think I'm going to be spending much time on the computer at all. My wife is the one who will be doing this, and she loves film and filmmaking. But she is so NOT a techie -- so I'm just trying to figure out how to get her the machine she needs to do the creative stuff. Knamean?

Thanks for the input.
Tom

 

[Carl_McKenzie]

No worries man, hope it all goes well!!

 

[DDK]

Our stuff was mission critical and we couldn't afford to keep having machines go all wonky due to cheap RAM (which they did when we had the same, "RAM is RAM" attitude). We ended up respending a few tens of thousands on ram due to the failure of the cheap stuff we had hoped could save us money.

The below is a discussion I had with a friend of mine about this topic. So I'm paraphrasing his words in quotes. If he's wrong, by all means feel free to correct him

There can be a difference between shit RAM and cheap RAM. Cheap RAM doesn't have to be shit, but shit RAM is always cheap.

Generally, as long as the vendor is giving a life-time or five-year warranty with the RAM, it's going to be of the same general quality as the more expensive stuff. There are only two manufacturers of RAM in the world and they all sell what they produce to every other vendor who brands it and resells it. So just because one brand sells their RAM for $100 more, doesn't make it any better or more reliable. It's the same RAM.

RAM is like CPU's. They're tested up to a tolerance point and then whatever they break at, that determines their 'quality'. This is why you can overclock CPU's and RAM, because their tolerance point is generally far higher than what they're marketed as. But all this occurs before it's ever sent out of the factory. So a batch of 3GHz CPU's will be sold as 3GHz CPU's regardless of the fact that they can be overclocked to 4GHz before they start producing irretrievable errors. The same with RAM. Vendors don't rebadge RAM at different CS or MHz after they've bought them.

There are, however, crappy RAM vendors who sell shitty RAM that are cast-offs and didn't pass tests. These are knock-offs and you can't trust them. They're everywhere so you have to be careful. But just because you bought shitty RAM, doesn't mean buying cheap RAM is a bad thing. Buying shitty RAM, however, is.

Then there's also the matter of 'Apple' RAM. There is no such thing. Apple generally use Hynix (at least they have in the last four iMacs I've owned, and probably the other half a dozen as well, I just can't remember back that far) RAM and if you compare Apple store prices to a PC vendor selling the EXACT SAME RAM, the PC vendor will be FAR cheaper.

Since it's a user-servicable part, you can just upgrade it yourself. On top of that, you don't get Apple stealing your RAM so at the very least, you can sell the redundant RAM sticks you pull out for a quick buck.

The same goes for HDD. Apple generally use Matsushita, although occasionally a WD will pop up, but the point is that you can get the exact same HDD's from PC vendors far cheaper than you can through the Apple store. And again, you'll be able to keep the extra HDD instead of Apple keeping it and sticking it in something else and pocketing the difference.

 

[legstud]

Good stuff. I have always gotten good RAM from New Egg. I think I'm pretty settled on getting a MacBook Pro. The new 15" ones, which start at $1800, have i5 processor's, which have virtual quad cores and an 8GB max on RAM. I am eyeballing a used MB Pro, and it is 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo, 4GB max on RAM, for $1200 + warranty. Unfortunately, I can't max out at 8GB of RAM -- but I'm saving several hundred dollars that I can put towards the software. So it seems like the best for right now.

An iMac would be great because it's faster and everything, but we'd miss the convenience of a laptop too much!

Thanks
Tom

 

[directorik]

Thanks, directorik. So I guess once you finish your video work, you just hand the "final cut" over to someone for color correction? Or do you give it to them in bits and pieces? Just curious.

It depends on the project. Sometimes I hand over the finished
project. Frankly I don't do a lot of color correction for my
movies. I sometimes need to do shot to shot correction to balance
the scene, but I shoot carefully, trying my best to get everything
right during production because I rarely have the money for full
color correction. Or I'm doing all the post myself and can't quite
figure out how "Color" works.

My wife is the one who will be doing this, and she loves film and filmmaking. But she is so NOT a techie -- so I'm just trying to figure out how to get her the machine she needs to do the creative stuff.

That's me! Not a techie at all. That's why I was drawn to Apple
20 years ago. Computers confuse me. I have a creative brain,
not a technical brain.

I had the iMac first. Used them for years (still do) and got a used
laptop fairly recently. Meaning that the iMac vs. laptop issue is
way to personal to help with. Technically you can do just about
everything you need to do on a laptop. I have cut and finished
entire features on a G4 using FCP 4. Sure, it was slower than my
current system and my current system is slower than the top of
the line right now.

I think your wife will be just fine with the laptop you mention.