New Front Door

[Nate North]

The current demo project has gone through a lot of changes. So much so that the entire point, the demographics, the story, everything has changed except the cat. With that in mind, I'm rebranding it something that makes more sense, and including a short tutorial at the front gate, which is now completely rebuilt from scratch.

Anyway, just looking for a bit of feedback on how easy this is to understand, etc. The video edit on this cell is alpha right now, but the bones are there.

I killed off the 1 minute of static opening credits shots. Shorter time to get into the actual game.

I made the entrance a lot bigger and more ornate. It's literally almost 800 times the size of the previous front door.

I made the score more cinematic, and dramatic. I used more foley and guitar pedals.

I explained the controls, and the objective.

Right now I think I'll leave the prize details for the description, rather than trying to fit all that text into the video.

Basically, The maze will open periodically, each time in a new form. Once open, the first person to find the center of the maze, the room containing the treasure, will receive a code that can be redeemed for a Paypal transfer of the cash prize amount. Once the prize is paid, the winner is announced and the maze is closed (or simply becomes unsolvable) until the time of the next opening. 50% of ad revenue is cycled back into the prize money for the next cycle, so the more people play it, the bigger the prizes get.

 

[mlesemann]

Looks great and it's clear to me.
Just one thing - shouldn't the cat be getting BIGGER as you describe the prize not smaller? Psychologically? Just a thought...

 

[Nate North]

Looks great and it's clear to me.
Just one thing - shouldn't the cat be getting BIGGER as you describe the prize not smaller? Psychologically? Just a thought...

Thanks for taking the time to help me focus group it.

I think you're correct about the prize shot. I actually felt like I should be showing the prize room there, but there is a problem where I can't.

I could make it a zoom in shot though, which would make more sense in that moment. Agreed.

The issue with showing the final rooms, or the prize itself has to do with AI.

This is basically an epic game of what's called "Tower Defense" but since I'm playing with real money, that defense needs to be universal.

So defending the treasure chest from people is easy, I just make the maze more complicated, and the chest is harder to get to.

But as soon as people see the money, a certain percentage are going to build AI equipped bots to try to automate solving the maze. And to a large degree, they will be successful.

The code you find at the end, that can be redeemed for the prize money, will be written in letters that are made of liquid fire, so basically a really strong captcha. The final room cannot terminate, or else bots could detect that pattern deviation easily. I can't show a shot of the end, or else people will train an AI on that image, and simply speedrun the maze until the bot recognizes the image..

it's a complicated part of this, but I think I can pull it off.

There's a good bit of this particular cell that I want to improve. I think the opening is good, but the later parts have bad music and sound, and as you mentioned, I think some better matching of shots and message could be found in some spots.

 

[CelticRambler]

Somehow I missed the earlier version so can't compare it ... but coming at it "fresh" I think it's clear enough that it's an interactive video game with a cash prize. From a marketing/explanation point of view, the on-screen dialogue/instructions would probably have more impact if you changed the order - you'll want to grab people's attention as soon as possible, so CASH PRIZE at the centre -> grows in size with each attempt to find it -> think you're up to the challenge -> click here to start.

A couple of styling points (modifications might be already on the cards) - the font style is not at all in keeping with the in-game environment ; and the in-picture windows feel a bit clunky too.

There's a good bit of this particular cell that I want to improve

Can I put in a request? Fix the cat! Full disclosure: I have a professional interest in knowing how cats move, so might well be more sensitive to this, but there is nothing feline about the way that cat's moving! I don't want to derail the thread on a somewhat nerdy point, but bearing in mind this will be, by default, a showcase for your work, I think you need to ensure that this cat walks, stalks and jumps like a cat. The initial stalking gait is just wrong; mooching around the labyrinth he's walking like a fox; and up and down the steps, that's a gazelle's jump (unless you've AI'd a weird POV video from YouTube) ! If you want to discuss this in more detail, probably best to take it to PM.

 

[Nate North]

Here is the original,

The movements of the cat are a bit of a complicated affair, but it's definitely something I plan to allocate more time to. The issue is that good quality animation loops take a good bit of time to nail. To add a few animations is about the same budget as 2 cells, and then to use them fluidly requires a recompile of a chain of directx translation blueprints. So long story short, I got excited about quickly building enough scope to be able to see emergent problems with the system as a whole, and cutoff animations at about 90. There are quite a few I actually haven't used yet, but movement stuff is especially tricky because of cascading issues driven by physics simulation. There are still a ton of misfires and glitches, but you never see them because it's film, and that's what editing is for.

I actually think I got the cat's movements better in the first version, but you'll see what I mean about the size of the gate being larger.

If I end up getting some funding going for this, which is more likely than in previous iterations, I'll be happy to hear your cat expertise, because then I can hire people to implement it in parallel. I would absolutely love for the cat to have as many realistic motions as possible. It's going to be a big focus one way or another before this is over.

Next up though is starting to integrate traps, people, spaceships, monsters, and fauna in general into the production cycle. Right now it's about 60 films long, which can be accessed via either link above, It's intended to be just a maze, to limit scope creep, but I can't resist hanging just a few pythons from tree limbs.

Something I'm looking into right now is using a new type of AI that creates animation sets from footage, and just using that on footage of cats. Sometimes these things don't work as well as advertised though, so fingers crossed on that one.

Also, I agree that the choice windows aren't ideal, but that is on the youtube end, and I have very limited control over it.

 

[Nate North]

Yesterday, I finally managed to integrate fractal math into the engine, and create the first demo scene using it. This is a different kind of 3d geometry creation, that allows us to create unique moving structures. It will mostly come into play creating alien worlds later on in the project.

 

[CelticRambler]

I actually think I got the cat's movements better in the first version

Yeah - in the context of that environment, the movement is more correct. Still some issues with the sequence of paw movements, and some behaviour that is just not typically feline, but I can understand how it's not so much of a priority for you at the moment.

 

[GOLDENMORAL CINEMAS]

Th

The current demo project has gone through a lot of changes. So much so that the entire point, the demographics, the story, everything has changed except the cat. With that in mind, I'm rebranding it something that makes more sense, and including a short tutorial at the front gate, which is now completely rebuilt from scratch.

Anyway, just looking for a bit of feedback on how easy this is to understand, etc. The video edit on this cell is alpha right now, but the bones are there.

I killed off the 1 minute of static opening credits shots. Shorter time to get into the actual game.

I made the entrance a lot bigger and more ornate. It's literally almost 800 times the size of the previous front door.

I made the score more cinematic, and dramatic. I used more foley and guitar pedals.

I explained the controls, and the objective.

Right now I think I'll leave the prize details for the description, rather than trying to fit all that text into the video.

Basically, The maze will open periodically, each time in a new form. Once open, the first person to find the center of the maze, the room containing the treasure, will receive a code that can be redeemed for a Paypal transfer of the cash prize amount. Once the prize is paid, the winner is announced and the maze is closed (or simply becomes unsolvable) until the time of the next opening. 50% of ad revenue is cycled back into the prize money for the next cycle, so the more people play it, the bigger the prizes get.

This is really awesome my friend! To see this project develop over time has been amazing, the visuals are really taking hold. The concept is great, the prize premise etc. There is still much to do as is being pointed out, overall though just keep asking for feedback, keep improving and this will be ready for official release.

 

[Nate North]

Last day before long weekend, todays new maze environment. Just a first attempt, but it does convey a vibe already.

 

[Spike]

Re Front Door: I wanted to comment here, not so much because I have anything of value to say, but in appreciation for the work and the immensity of the project.

The video, I think, is kind of beautiful--the flames, the idol, etc. Also, the "camera" movements and angles feel really professional--smooth and engaging.

One thing I noticed, something I do have some experience with, was the font. It kind of stands out for me as a little blocky. It's probably just a stand-in for now, but eventually it will be, I think, an important choice: something unobtrusive but still unique to you. The text itself is clear and to the point.

And, I bumped into, on Netflix, a bunch of interactive games, similar in concept, based, i think, on tv shows. One, You vs. Wild, has a live action dude for whom you have to choose one of two actions, like sneak by the croc or try to scare him off, eat a grub or a plant, etc. A wild idea, but have you thought of a venue like this? It probably wouldn't allow cash prizes, but, with somebody like Netflix involved, monetization would probably not be an issue.

Anyway, carry on. I'll keep up.

 

[Nate North]

Yeah - in the context of that environment, the movement is more correct. Still some issues with the sequence of paw movements, and some behaviour that is just not typically feline, but I can understand how it's not so much of a priority for you at the moment.

I'll definitely circle back at some point for some advice on cat movements. I think that improving the animation of the cat is probably pretty important in the long run. I expect for many audience members, main character animation is a huge deal.

Here's what I think can happen. What happened with most projects I saw become successful from a low budget start. I think that I can create a basic form of the design, use that to build a financial support base with audiences that see the potential, or just enjoy it already, and then begin reinvesting in quality improvements over time.

If anyone saw the first season of South Park, you'll notice that their product was really substandard, until they had received 3-4 years of income, at which point the animation magically fixed itself, lol. I can probably work much faster than they did at the improvements, but income is first in any case, since steering a car with no gas only gets you so far.

 

[Nate North]

Re Front Door: I wanted to comment here, not so much because I have anything of value to say, but in appreciation for the work and the immensity of the project.

The video, I think, is kind of beautiful--the flames, the idol, etc. Also, the "camera" movements and angles feel really professional--smooth and engaging.

One thing I noticed, something I do have some experience with, was the font. It kind of stands out for me as a little blocky. It's probably just a stand-in for now, but eventually it will be, I think, an important choice: something unobtrusive but still unique to you. The text itself is clear and to the point.

And, I bumped into, on Netflix, a bunch of interactive games, similar in concept, based, i think, on tv shows. One, You vs. Wild, has a live action dude for whom you have to choose one of two actions, like sneak by the croc or try to scare him off, eat a grub or a plant, etc. A wild idea, but have you thought of a venue like this? It probably wouldn't allow cash prizes, but, with somebody like Netflix involved, monetization would probably not be an issue.

Anyway, carry on. I'll keep up.

First, thanks for taking the time to watch the video. I don't really expect people to watch them all, because I make a new short film almost every day of the year. There's 70 or so now, in the last 3 months I think. The maze needs at least a few hundred rooms, or the meta structure won't hold against bot attacks.

The fonts in this clip were done quickly, and while I think they are ok, I'll probably go back and really fine tune them before release. If you watch the video "opening sequence" that I posted a year ago, you can see an example of finished font work that I published.

The music is terrible, because I don't write country music, but I had to write the soundtrack for this to save money. Anyway, the fonts are better here.

As far as Netflix, as you said, they already have a working system built in to allow interactive fiction projects like this, so it's a possibility, but I have some concerns that taking a deal with them means cancelling the entire long term project if we have a bad month. I'd have to talk to them, and to do that, I think I have to at least provide a working demo.

This formula with the prize, I think it has some real potential. I originally made the change to limit the scope, since this is just a test run demo. However, I've kind of sold myself on the idea since then.

What's most interesting here is the core concept, and how it interacts with international law. This is a skill contest, with no fees, that functions on the business end like a gambling operation, which is good, if you've ever heard the phrase "the house always wins"

It's a way for people to wager time (a commodity many people are rich in) vs money (a commodity many people are poor in). since my income comes from the advertisers rather than the players, I am basically clear of gaming law restrictions in most territories.

What stands out to me, as someone who would love to win some money, is that in every other case I could find, there is an "odds of winning 1 in 30 million sticker" whereas, in this case, if you find the room at the end, that 's it, you win. Someone will win every time I expect, so it's really about how far you'd go to win, rather than some dice roll.

Plus, I'd love for people that are too poor to invest, or gamble (which is the same thing, but you don't have to wear a suit and pretend it's a job) to have an option where they could try to win some money. There is nothing worse than being too poor to earn, and I think there are probably a lot of people out there in that situation. So this is free for everyone, and you can play it on anything, down to a 100 dollar cell phone.

I guess my biggest concern is making the labyrinth interesting for people, without having the budget to do so at first. It may not make it out of the starting gate, because of the same problem I'm trying to eliminate for others. Time will tell.

 

[CelticRambler]

For an "outside" opinion, I showed the video to one of my sons with no context or explanation given on my part. He's not a "gamer" but has played his fair share of (online) video games ... and also happens to have just obtained a Masters in cybersecurity. His reaction and comments :

- he recognised straight away that it was the introduction to an interactive video game, along the lines of a CYOA story. Worth pointing out that, although he is very familiar with the original CYOA series, he doesn't see the concept as particularly innovative in today's interactive-everything environment.

- he was most struck by the contrast between the hi-def rendering of the "world" and the lesser quality rendering of the animation, which he's seen in several other games and considers it quite off-putting. As someone who grew up with the original Minecraft, he says that he expects blocky/jerky animations to take place in blocky/pixelly environments. Where there's too much of a difference between the character and the world, it indicates to him that the game designers are pulling elements in from too many different sources. I think this ties in with your own comments above about South Park and the like.

- never mind the bots: worry about the seriously motivated human cheaters! Son said that he'd attack this with pen and paper (as he has done with other games of the same kind ... and indeed the CYOA books). At the very least, if he was chasing the prize, he'd skip straight to the choice at the end and not waste time admiring the scenery. *

- in subsequent discussion, both of us have the same question: "where's the prize money coming from?" If there's a pay-per visit fee - which now you say there isn't - then that'd at least generate some income from blunt-force attempts to find the right route; but if it's driven by ad-revenue ... what ads? I haven't seen a YouTube ad for years, and have got pretty adept at skipping over overt product endorsement (except for Jay Foreman's )

- and a pedantic linguistic point: the terms "maze" and "labyrinth" are not freely interchangeable! To us Europeans, a labyrinth is a tortuous path that always leads to the prize at the centre, so requires only the determination to keep going forward (even if "forward" often seems like "backward"). The choice is Go On or Give Up, but there are no dead ends or circular paths such as you find in a maze. Perhaps something to bear in mind when targetting an international, multi-cultural audience. *

You might be able to address the bot/fast-forward challenge by deliberately making this a labyrinth rather than a maze, and having a set of visual (or audio) clues embedded in each step that can only be resolved or applied by someone who has watched the whole video. That could also be include paid-for product placement to circumvent the use of ad-blockers.

 

[Nate North]

For an "outside" opinion, I showed the video to one of my sons with no context or explanation given on my part. He's not a "gamer" but has played his fair share of (online) video games ... and also happens to have just obtained a Masters in cybersecurity. His reaction and comments :

- he recognised straight away that it was the introduction to an interactive video game, along the lines of a CYOA story. Worth pointing out that, although he is very familiar with the original CYOA series, he doesn't see the concept as particularly innovative in today's interactive-everything environment.

I wouldn't say there's anything particularly innovative on the client end. It's the background math that's changed so much. We're able to produce the same number of animation frames in a day that was previously possible in a year. It's kind of a shift in scale, with modern content creators getting paid fractional cents on the dollar vs their 80s counterparts.

I think people often imagine that I'm trying to do some breakthrough thing with storytelling, but realistically, something of this scale will devolve into pulp fiction in many instances. I see it as a nexus of interconnected stories, rather than any new type of story. I think a lot of creative things could happen in an ecosystem where directors and writers can branch off from each other in mid story, creating new stories from existing situations

- he was most struck by the contrast between the hi-def rendering of the "world" and the lesser quality rendering of the animation, which he's seen in several other games and considers it quite off-putting. As someone who grew up with the original Minecraft, he says that he expects blocky/jerky animations to take place in blocky/pixelly environments. Where there's too much of a difference between the character and the world, it indicates to him that the game designers are pulling elements in from too many different sources. I think this ties in with your own comments above about South Park and the like.

Yeah, this is a budget thing, and the price tag difference is bigger than you think. Prefab animals like this are only a few hundred dollars, and you can modify them and work on them from a kind of kit. Engineering a custom character requires a few specialists, and I've heard people that got handed 25 million dollars lamenting about how they could only afford a few of them. (within that budget slice of course)

I do know what you mean, and it seems to bother different people different amounts. Some really hate that contrast, and some have no issue and enjoy the animation. I have a great deal more control over the look of the world than I do the cat animation.

The real problem is that I'm more of an expert at level design and cinematography than I am at character animation. If we can hire at least one, it would no doubt go a long way.

- never mind the bots: worry about the seriously motivated human cheaters! Son said that he'd attack this with pen and paper (as he has done with other games of the same kind ... and indeed the CYOA books). At the very least, if he was chasing the prize, he'd skip straight to the choice at the end and not waste time admiring the scenery.

Well, this is why I think this is a fun game on my end, lol. I have to solve this puzzle, where maybe 20,000 people try to game the system at once, and I have to be one step ahead of all of them at all times. I'm probably going to loose a bit of cash at the beginning, but I gain experience over time, and control the odds ultimately, so I'll win if I can draw a crowd, no question.

To be more specific, I'm doing some things to make it tricky to win. Skipping to the choice every time won't work, there will be clues that vastly improve one's chances. It should be nearly impossible to solve with brute force, or I'll go broke, because that's the first thing they will try.

- in subsequent discussion, both of us have the same question: "where's the prize money coming from?" If there's a pay-per visit fee - which now you say there isn't - then that'd at least generate some income from blunt-force attempts to find the right route; but if it's driven by ad-revenue ... what ads? I haven't seen a YouTube ad for years, and have got pretty adept at skipping over overt product endorsement (except for Jay Foreman's )

Ad revenue is worse than ever before, and you really need to rack up some views to make a dent. That's why this whole thing is built around driving chain views, also an important metric for google's algorithm. For people without a youtube ad blocker, ads play on every few videos, and probably we'll enable just a banner ad at the bottom. I'll need to prime it, but it should be self sustaining, at some level. The hope is that reinvestment in advertising will allow it to scale up. What I'm probably going to do is offer stock to a youtuber who already had millions of subscribers, sell him or her on the mechanics and potential, and then I should be in business, minus 10% or so.

- and a pedantic linguistic point: the terms "maze" and "labyrinth" are not freely interchangeable! To us Europeans, a labyrinth is a tortuous path that always leads to the prize at the centre, so requires only the determination to keep going forward (even if "forward" often seems like "backward"). The choice is Go On or Give Up, but there are no dead ends or circular paths such as you find in a maze. Perhaps something to bear in mind when targetting an international, multi-cultural audience.

Actually, that's very interesting. I personally like the word Labyrinth much better as a title. I'm actually planning to make this multilingual, but as far as varying cultures reactions to certain names, it's a cross that bridge when I get there mentality.

One thing is for sure, I think that I need to make it so it takes a lot of determination to complete that maze. The prizes wouldn't be very big if 2k people showed up and one solved it in an hour. That's probably 50 bucks in profit max.

Lastly, I've thought about stuff like sponsorships and product placement. It's a good idea, and it would work, but I feel like it would really compromise the experience for users. Suspension of disbelief is of course a big deal, and if this thing started to look like a nascar, I think a good bit of the mystery would be gone. If I could put a sprite machine in the occasional hallway and it paid for the whole thing, it would be a hard call. I'd probably do it, just to get out of cycle lock on the financial end.

Anyway thanks for having your kid take a look at it. It's really helpful to hear feedback from all kinds of audiences.

 

[James Rogers]

I like what you're doing, Nate.
I hate to use the word philosophy, since it is thrown around these days like a frizbee, but in the true sense of the word, I think you are a philosopher; a lover of knowledge. You are also an artist. I feel there is something in you that you are trying to get out and on the screen. You have something to say, and that is commendable if not audacious in this mediocre world we live in.

I'll keep my comments brief.
You, as a designer, have put together something pleasing to the eye.
As a storyteller, your scenes leave me curious about what is to come. What might be around the corner.
Your soundtracks are wonderful.
Not being concerned about winning a prize, I could see myself wandering around the world you are creating just for the experience of it.

I don't know if it would be constructive to analyse every technical or artistic issue with your project. It is what it is and it's working. Raytracing and all that sort of thing is good and doesn't need to be better. I did watch the opening scene, after which I followed through 5 or 6 video choices. For me, I did not have the feeling of knowing I was going somewhere. My choices were arbitrary because I had nothing to go on. Why would the cat choose to go left or right? Is it a proverbial coin toss or did I miss something? I also felt a lack of continuity between the scene I was in and the one I was entering. If it's possible to start the NEXT scene where the previous one left off, that would help. Also, since this is a maze or labyrinth of sorts, can the cat turn around to retrace its steps so that it could then choose to go another way? Even if the cat never finds the prize, will there be any less tangible rewards? Is there a backstory to the cat. If this is an on-line game, will players be able to see other players in the scenes if they happen to be playing the game from wherever they are?

I'm only sharing these thought with you, Nate. I don't believe an artist should taint his or her work with outside influences except when it's a work for hire. As for the game play itself, there could be room for outside ideas since there is certainly a mechanical aspect to good storytelling. The nuts and bolts, if you will.

 

[Nate North]

I like what you're doing, Nate.
I hate to use the word philosophy, since it is thrown around these days like a frizbee, but in the true sense of the word, I think you are a philosopher; a lover of knowledge. You are also an artist. I feel there is something in you that you are trying to get out and on the screen. You have something to say, and that is commendable if not audacious in this mediocre world we live in.

I'll keep my comments brief.
You, as a designer, have put together something pleasing to the eye.
As a storyteller, your scenes leave me curious about what is to come. What might be around the corner.
Your soundtracks are wonderful.
Not being concerned about winning a prize, I could see myself wandering around the world you are creating just for the experience of it.

I don't know if it would be constructive to analyse every technical or artistic issue with your project. It is what it is and it's working. Raytracing and all that sort of thing is good and doesn't need to be better. I did watch the opening scene, after which I followed through 5 or 6 video choices. For me, I did not have the feeling of knowing I was going somewhere. My choices were arbitrary because I had nothing to go on. Why would the cat choose to go left or right? Is it a proverbial coin toss or did I miss something? I also felt a lack of continuity between the scene I was in and the one I was entering. If it's possible to start the NEXT scene where the previous one left off, that would help. Also, since this is a maze or labyrinth of sorts, can the cat turn around to retrace its steps so that it could then choose to go another way? Even if the cat never finds the prize, will there be any less tangible rewards? Is there a backstory to the cat. If this is an on-line game, will players be able to see other players in the scenes if they happen to be playing the game from wherever they are?

I'm only sharing these thought with you, Nate. I don't believe an artist should taint his or her work with outside influences except when it's a work for hire. As for the game play itself, there could be room for outside ideas since there is certainly a mechanical aspect to good storytelling. The nuts and bolts, if you will.

Well, thank you for the kind words,

To clarify some puzzling things about this alpha stage demo, many of the scenes are connected randomly at this stage, a placeholder arrangement awaiting completion of bridge sections and similar. There are a number of cells that are already connected as you described, including the very first one, entitled "labyrinth entrance" which is midway down this page. So what you're describing there is already the plan for a finished product. That said, resetting the maze requires many modular sections, where the connectivity will be looser, but still viable enough, for those, the workflow will be to put greenscreen inside doorways, which allows fast modular connection with a sense of continuity preserved.

As far as actions and consequences, Save Point itself will be more like what you're probably imagining. Choices cascading into stories, not go left or go right, but "Take the job as an astronaut or try to rob fort Knox" The issue now is that pre funding, those choices can quickly snowball into scenes I don't currently have the staff to execute, so right now I'm just keeping it as basic as possible, and using this time to work out the kinks in core functionality, such as rendering, environments, lighting, and logistical issues inherent in managing a sprawling narrative tied to a hundred thousand digital assets. It's honestly as much as I can handle without resources. I think it's maybe a 450 gig project right now, and that's just the working engine folder. Other assets are heading into the terrabytes.

Scenes, cinematography, sound, music, characters, and story. I have all of these covered right now, and I can actually implement everything but the characters. Stories are not an issue for me, but obviously the characters and voice actors are a prerequisite.

I'm glad to have people around that are helping me troubleshoot it, or understand different perspectives. Thanks for taking the time.