Need input on dialogue

Firm1 · Sep 4, 2012

Hey guys. So like most of you, I'm making a movie and I just finished writing a part that was very dialogue driven....That's fucking tough! I've seriously been mulling over this for days and I can't tell if its good or not. I feel that I might be too vague about what I'm trying to say. My intent is to show a side character whose a fucked up artist that's established in photography. Anyway, it would be awesome if some of you could give your input and at least tell me whether its good or shitty. I'm investing a lot of time and money into this, so I don't want to fuck it up, you know? Anyway, Thanks guys!

P.S I know its not perfectly formatted and is a bit difficult to read since I have some of the general shots included but its just the dialogue I'm worried about right now. Plus, its not as though I'm sending this to hollywood, right?

_____________________________________________________________________________________

INT. JACK’S BEDROOM – MORNING

ECU ON JACK’S EYE, you see a closed eye sputtering up and down. Within seconds a phone RINGS in the background causing Jack to open his eyes.

WIDE SHOT OF JACK IN HIS BED, his hair is messy and he’s still wearing the same clothes he had on last night. An empty bottle lay near him. The sheets are half on the bed, half on the floor. His room is a complete wreak and he’s too hung over to give a shit. Jack slowly gets up and moves his hands from his chin to the back of his head, trying to get a hold of himself. His face is pinching from the pain of all those drinks he had last night.

FRONTAL SHOT, Jack then reaches to his nightstand to grab the ringing cell phone.

BUST SHOT, Jack answers.

JACK
(Horse voice)
Yeah?

HENRY FELSTEDT
(British Accent)
Hello. Jack Dolan?

JACK
Yeah.

HENRY FELSTEDT
Private investigator?

JACK
(Annoyed)
What?

HENRY FELSTEDT
This is Henry Felstedt.

JACK
I’m not open for business un...

HENRY
Yes, I read your hours on the ad. But, 12- 5 is a bit of a narrow work schedule, wouldn’t you say?

JACK gives a long sigh as he scratches the side of his nose.

HENRY
I’m just going to get right to it. I’m in need of your services and will pay whatever it takes to get the answers I want.

JACK
Alright…Let’s meet later.

HENRY
How does lunch sound?

JACK
That’s fine.

HENRY
Marvolous. We’ll meet at Demitri’s downtown. They have a wonderful Rosary Chicken that goes excellent with a fine Cabernet. It’s just wonderful. Well, Listen, I’ve got to run now, but we’ll have to catch up later. Does 12:30 work for you?

JACK
(slightly confused expression)
Yeah…

HENRY
Great. Then, we’ll see you there. Chow.

The man quickly hangs up. Jack moves the phone down and stares at it for a moment before placing it right next to him on the bed. He stares off, trying to soak in the whole conversation.

CUT TO:

EXT. DEMITRI’S DOWNTOWN – DAY: ESTABLISHING

FULL FRAME SIDE SHOT, Jack Dolan approaches a bed of flowers strewn across an ivory white fence before stopping to view the scene. Behind the small fence lies a fancy restaurant full of people dining for lunch. Waiters in tuxedos are walking all about, serving various customers.

OVER THE SHOULDER SHOT, After scoping out the place, he walks up to the entrance. Just as soon as he speaks to the server, asking for Henry Felstedt, you hear a voice YELLING for Jack.

HENRY
Mr. Dolan! Over here!

POV OF HENRY, Jack looks over and points at a table where Henry and a large TAN ASIAN MAN are sitting. The server lets him go through.

POV OF JACK, Jack makes his way over to the table as Henry extends his hand. The large stranger continues sitting there sipping on a glass of white wine, not even acknowledging Jack’s presence.

HENRY
It’s a pleasure to finally meet you.

Without even giving him a handshake, Jack calmly sits down. The man awkwardly draws his hand back and sits down as well. He begins to take a sip from his drink. Jack is still wearing the same clothes as the night before. Wrinkled flannel over a grey shirt and dirty blue jeans. He still bore a heavy face with a five o’clock shadow and was clearly undressed for the occasion.

Henry was very pale and thin. He wore a vanilla suit with a strawberry red tie and aside from his red circular glasses and the lightly trimmed black beard, he was completely bald and almost colorless. He also had a tattoo branded on the left side of his neck but his shirt collar covered most of it up so that you could only see the very tip of it.

His ASIAN friend still continues looking off, casually sipping on his wine. One shoulder resting on the chair and the other holding the glass. He’s wearing an all black suit and is also bald.

ANGLE ON JACK, He stares back at Henry with a plain expression and then moves his eyes over to the large man.

ANGLE ON LARGE MAN

ANGLE BACK ON JACK, he looks back at Henry

JACK
Lets just get down to business.

ANGLE ON HENRY, he finishes a sip of his red wine as Jack says this.

HENRY
So, terse. Troubled men only use that level of brevity in their discourse.

JACK
We’re not here to talk about me.

HENRY
Yes. Well, I suppose you’re right. But, you’ll have to excuse me. I like to know as much as I can about the people around me.

JACK
Something tells me we’re not gonna be around each other that much.

HENRY
(lightly smiles)
If you cannot understand each and every facet of the individual, then there is nothing but a dull breadth painting of the World.

FRONTAL SHOT, Jack moves in closer.

JACK
Who the hell are you?

HENRY
I’m an artist, Mr. Dolan.

The LARGE MAN sitting next to Henry begins saying something in Korean. His voice is plain like a narrator.

ANGLE ON JACK, as he looks over at the man.

JACK
And, who the fuck is this?

HENRY
It doesn’t matter right now.

Jack sits up and begins to smile.

JACK
This is bullshit.

HENRY
Is it, then? And, I suppose doubling your pay is also bullshit?

JACK
Keep talking.

HENRY
I’ve called you here because I suspect my wife is cheating on me…Have you ever been hurt by someone, Mr. Dolan?

Jack sat there blankly as though he were in deep thought.

HENRY
Ah yes. It seems I’ve struck a nerve in you. Would you like to talk about it?

JACK
Not particularly. So, you want me to check on your wife?

HENRY
Indeed.

JACK
Alright then. My going rate’s 2,500, but I guess today its 5,000. I’ll need half up front.

HENRY
That won’t be a problem.

JACK
Good.

Jack takes out a notepad and paper and prepares to write.

JACK
Now, I’m gonna need her name. where she works. Who she hangs around. Daily schedule. Anything that can give me a lead.

HENRY
Yes, of course.

He reaches into his jacket and pulls out a wallet. He takes out a photo of a woman with red hair and hands it to Jack.

HENRY
That’s Marissa Turner. She’s a T.A at the University of Maryland.

JACK
Hmm…

HENRY
I know what you’re thinking. Why is a man like me married to a woman like her?

JACK
Frankly, I don’t give a shit.

HENRY
(smiles while looking down)
Her life, Mr. Dolan. That’s why. I’m infatuated with her life; a bittersweet mix between a dream and a tragedy that spoke to me… like a painting. Absolutely magnificent.

Jack passes back the photo. Henry takes it and puts it back into his wallet.

HENRY
Marissa wanted to be a painter, you see. But, she failed. And, do you know why?

Jack patiently waits. After Henry puts the photo away, he takes another sip of his wine. Then, continues.

HENRY
She had nothing in her to express. Good art is never created for the sake of art, Mr. Dolan. It has always come from the inner depths of the individual and his ultimate expression of the social paradigm. And, that’s why I married her. I fell in love with Marissa the moment I realized she would never understand this principle because it was at this moment when I knew that she would never be a painter. Thus, forever sealing her fate to live a life of misery. Never satisfied. Never resting

Henry finishes the last bit of wine. Jack remains silent.

JACK
And, now she’s cheating on you.

HENRY
Well, it isn’t certain she’s fooling around. That’s where you come in. I need to know what she’s been doing behind my back. I have to know how far she’s gone in dealing with the pain of her marriage; of her failed career as an artist.

JACK
Why not divorce?

HENRY
Divorce? Why would I ever want to do that? Each and every given moment of her passing life is an enhancement to the portrait that I get to enjoy. Don’t you see, Mr. Dolan? I WANT you to find me an affair. I want a master painting. You can’t buy that kind of art from a studio.

JACK
Jesus…

WIDE SHOT, a waiter comes up

WAITER
Are you gentlemen ready to order?

There is a moment of SILENCE.

HENRY
Give us more time, please.

WAITER
Certainly.

As he walks away, Henry begins speaking.

HENRY
Oh my. It seems the wine has gotten to my head, again. So, where were we?

JACK
Where will she be for the next few days?

HENRY
Ah, yes. She spends most of her days in the lab. In fact, that’s where she’ll probably be later this evening.

JACK
Any particular time?

HENRY
I believe she said five.

JACK
Ok.

Jack closes his notepad and puts it back in his pocket as he gets out of his seat and begins to walk away.

HENRY
Won’t you stay for lunch?

JACK
I have all the information I need. I’ll call you when I have something.

HENRY
Mr. Dolan! Wait!

Jack turns around.

HENRY
Make sure you photograph them together. I want to know what she looks like when she’s not around me.

Jack turns back saying nothing, walking off with a slight look of DISGUST.

MCU ON HENRY, he looks off as Jack walks away.

HENRY
I like that man.

He begins to laugh.

ECU ON HENRY’S SMILE.

rayw · Sep 4, 2012

Imperfect format aside (which you're right, really doesn't matter if you're writer/director) it's fine as part of a larger piece, albeit rather ho-hum and cliché.
It's terrible if it's a short and this is all there is.

Metrosexual artist HENRY, with Asian manservant en tow. Philip Seymour Hoffman as CAPOTE, with Bolo Yeung in IRON HEART.
And the noirish JACK, hard as nails and could be bent. Jack Nicholson in CHINA TOWN

Snore-fest, but you've done well if you're shooting for that genre.

Firm1 · Sep 4, 2012

rayw said:
Imperfect format aside (which you're right, really doesn't matter if you're writer/director) it's fine as part of a larger piece, albeit rather ho-hum and cliché.
It's terrible if it's a short and this is all there is.

Metrosexual artist HENRY, with Asian manservant en tow. Philip Seymour Hoffman as CAPOTE, with Bolo Yeung in IRON HEART.
And the noirish JACK, hard as nails and could be bent. Jack Nicholson in CHINA TOWN

Snore-fest, but you've done well if you're shooting for that genre.

Thanks. Yeah, I know this part is boring, which is why at the last second, I decided to create this British character. And no, this isn't the whole film. My philosophy is that if you're going to make a movie for people to watch, make a story that's thrilling while also thought provocative. This is one of the more thought provocative parts, or at least my attempt. Well, its not really about what he says that's supposed to induce thought but rather how you come to know the character.

My aim was to create a dialogue sequence that sort of tricked you. You come into the scene finding out that Henry is a well established artsy fartsy type whose trying to get evidence of his wife cheating on him. So initially, you think he's this romantic type who wants to know the truth since he loves his wife.

But in the end, you find out that he's really just a fucked up artist who sees his wife's life as a painting or work of art for his own enjoyment rather than something that actually effects an individual. Like, he knows her life is tragic, which was why he married her and you sort of get the hint that he lives his marriage vicariously. This sort of begs the question of what else he might have done to make her life more of a tragedy.

In the end though, you never really find that much out about their marriage since this is just intended to carry the main story along. Anyway, I'm trying to get a fucked up film noirish type movie.

And btw, the main character would be more like Jeffry Morgan. Henry is more like the skinny version of Charles Bronson with the personality of that artist from the Big Lebowski, only not as eccentric and lively. The fat dude is...well, a fat asian and he's not chained or anything over the top like that. I'm trying to go for subtly off-beat.

Anyway, thanks for the input.

DesertOkie · Sep 4, 2012

It made me think he was not her real husband, just some weirdo. I was thinking set up for a serial killer to pin a PI for the murder. I guess I got the wrong cliche.

HENRY
So, terse. Troubled men only use that level of brevity in their discourse. .... Only troubled men use... The other make it sound like troubled men can only be terse.

HENRY
I’m just going to get right to it. I’m in need of your services and will pay whatever it takes to get the answers I want. Drop I'm just going to get right to it.

Firm1 · Sep 4, 2012

DesertOkie said:
It made me think he was not her real husband, just some weirdo. I was thinking set up for a serial killer to pin a PI for the murder. I guess I got the wrong cliche.

HENRY
So, terse. Troubled men only use that level of brevity in their discourse. .... Only troubled men use... The other make it sound like troubled men can only be terse.

HENRY
I’m just going to get right to it. I’m in need of your services and will pay whatever it takes to get the answers I want. Drop I'm just going to get right to it.

No, he's really just there to explain the tragedy of another character. His name is Greg Sorin and he's a grad student who works with the artist's wife. She ends up sleeping with him but that kid is basically fucked up and her breaking it off with him to be with a husband who doesn't actually love her, sets him off and he goes mad...Of course, its also a whole series of other unfortunate events that happened to him as well. But, in the end this causes his life to collide with Jack, the washed out drunken PI who used to be a corrupt detective, wife and everything. He also has a pretty intense back story, but that's neither here nor there.

Thanks for the tips, though. And that's interesting you thought it was going that way. I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing.

Rodney Petrie · Sep 5, 2012

I don't have any feedback on your dialogue to give you but I wanted to comment on the fact that even if this type of scene is cliche I am interested as a reader/viewer to find out what is going to happen next and for that reason I think you have something here.

At this point (assuming first draft?) your dialogue can be fine tuned in another draft.

Firm1 · Sep 5, 2012

Rodney Petrie said:
I don't have any feedback on your dialogue to give you but I wanted to comment on the fact that even if this type of scene is cliche I am interested as a reader/viewer to find out what is going to happen next and for that reason I think you have something here.

At this point (assuming first draft?) your dialogue can be fine tuned in another draft.

Thanks man. Yeah, this is a first draft and yeah it does need to be brushed up a bit. Its tough writing a good story but I feel like its fundamental when trying to achieve that level of success all filmmakers want.

That's why I'm not making shorts any more because its so hard to come up with a five to ten minute movie with a story arch that is good enough for the average joe to want to see, you know? I'm really trying to make a nice 30 to 45 minute film that could be put on reddit or ebaumsworld for people to actually watch for genuine entertainment. Of course, that requires a lot of funding but I figure if you center your focus on the story first, then funding and talent will be easier to grab. The better the story, the more motivated others will be in making it happen. At least, that's my theory but I have a lot to learn.

Rodney Petrie · Sep 5, 2012

I am finding the same thing with shorts. It is difficult to make something short that hooks people, keeps them glued to the screen and see them watch through to the end, especially now when some people's attention spans are very short.

On the other side of the coin though I think shorts are a great way to hone storytelling and test you as a writer. It makes for a challenge for sure.

Firm1 · Sep 5, 2012

Rodney Petrie said:
I am finding the same thing with shorts. It is difficult to make something short that hooks people, keeps them glued to the screen and see them watch through to the end, especially now when some people's attention spans are very short.

On the other side of the coin though I think shorts are a great way to hone storytelling and test you as a writer. It makes for a challenge for sure.

Right. The story is god when it comes down to it.

Filman · Sep 5, 2012

Your dialogue is good to bring out depth in the artist character. But I think you should have them speak like real people of today, not be like characters in old gangster movies.

mlesemann · Sep 5, 2012

Overall I think it's good. But you can trim it, make it tighter.
"And now she's cheating on you" can be "She's cheating on you."
"Where will she be for the next few days?" can be "Where can I find her?"
Generally avoid actually, therefore, however,....
They're usually unnecessary, and that stuff adds up over time

And yes I agree that they sound a bit old fashioned and stilted.

Firm1 · Sep 5, 2012

Filman said:
Your dialogue is good to bring out depth in the artist character. But I think you should have them speak like real people of today, not be like characters in old gangster movies.

Interesting. I was trying to get that kind of discourse from the artists since he's a weird guy but not from Jack. Guess I have a lot of work.

FantasySciFi · Sep 5, 2012

I can see where you want to go with the dialogue but the motivations seem at odds. In part because this is only a fragment of the whole, but it feels off. As others pointed out, it is more wordy than it needs to be.

Jack comes across as the Sam Spade type P.I. but falls short because typically he'd be more attentive to a well-paying customer, not snidely ambivalent. I was accepting of the early morning hangover responses, but this kind of character would be more fawning though cautious of Henry. The signals your script throw off are stereotypical which is either by design or accidental. In either case, the dialogue is mismatched.

Henry's dialogue is also a mismatch. He's a holier-than-thou artist who the audience gets the sense is trying to force his wife to have an affair with Jack. He obviously knows more about Jack than he's letting on since he has his home phone and recognizes him without having met him. I suspect that Jack would be concerned about that.

Clearly Henry would have pushed a drink on Jack or Jack would have taken a wine. Also, Henry's time is endless, he would have ordered. Jack would have been the one to interrupt. Jack would want to know about "his company" and delved more into Henry and the Korean man.

It's not that your dialogue is outright bad. It is too flourished in some places and drags in others with unneeded repetition and exposition. In other areas it just doesn't match the motivations you've been portraying. I get the sense of "Maltese Falcon" with the back and forth between the PI and collector.

Henry is wealthy or the setting suggests it. Having a Korean escort, meeting at a restaurant with tuxedoed busboys, doubling his salary are swaggers of wealth. Yet his wife is a teaching assistant? At the University of Maryland? Then she's working in a lab, not a studio? That, to me, was out of context and drew me completely out of the scene. I'd be more effusive.

Code:

                          HENRY
       She spends most of her time at the university's
       art department.

                          JACK
       You suspect she's fooling around with one of
       the art professors then.

Henry takes a sip, smiles and sets it down.

                          HENRY
        That is precisely what I'm hiring you to find out.
        How my beautiful wife spends her time ... and
        with whom.  The University of Maryland isn't,
        after all, Columbia or Harvard.

                          JACK
        I'll need her schedule, people she ...

Henry picks up his napkin, placing it on his lap and gestures
to the waiter.

                          HENRY
        She leaves around 8:30 am each day.  The
        rest is what I'm paying you to find out for me
        Mr. Dolan.

The waiter approaches.

                          HENRY
               (to waiter)
        Yes, I'll have the sherry braised veal with the
        champignons toulains.
                (to Jack)
        Would you like something, Mr. Dolan?

                          JACK
        I'm fine.

Henry gestures towards Jack.

                          HENRY
                 (to waiter)
        Another wine glass for my friend.

The waiter nods and disappears.

                          JACK
                 (irritated)
        Look, if you want me to find out about your
        wife, I'm gonna need more than that to work
        with.

                          HENRY
        If I knew more, why would I need to engage
        the services of a private investigator.  I was
        told you're one of the best.  Was I misled?

The waiter returns with a glass and sets it in front of
Jack.  He then fills it with wine.

Jack is hesitant then takes and downs it.
...

I'd stop there. Henry plays with people. He'd make Dolan earn the money. You're dialogue lays it out too much. While I'm sure the Korean protege plays a role, he is superfluous in this scene. I would take him out or make him more directly relevant. Everything in a scene needs to be integral to advancing the story. His presence or absence in this segment has no impact. And it actually impedes the flow.

Good dialogue means being concise, true to the motivation, and advancing the story action. While your segment isn't bad, as a reader/viewer it just missed the mark on these in places--seeming off and slowing down the story. Good luck.

Firm1 · Sep 5, 2012

FantasySciFi said:
I can see where you want to go with the dialogue but the motivations seem at odds. In part because this is only a fragment of the whole, but it feels off. As others pointed out, it is more wordy than it needs to be.

Jack comes across as the Sam Spade type P.I. but falls short because typically he'd be more attentive to a well-paying customer, not snidely ambivalent. I was accepting of the early morning hangover responses, but this kind of character would be more fawning though cautious of Henry. The signals your script throw off are stereotypical which is either by design or accidental. In either case, the dialogue is mismatched.

Henry's dialogue is also a mismatch. He's a holier-than-thou artist who the audience gets the sense is trying to force his wife to have an affair with Jack. He obviously knows more about Jack than he's letting on since he has his home phone and recognizes him without having met him. I suspect that Jack would be concerned about that.

Clearly Henry would have pushed a drink on Jack or Jack would have taken a wine. Also, Henry's time is endless, he would have ordered. Jack would have been the one to interrupt. Jack would want to know about "his company" and delved more into Henry and the Korean man.

It's not that your dialogue is outright bad. It is too flourished in some places and drags in others with unneeded repetition and exposition. In other areas it just doesn't match the motivations you've been portraying. I get the sense of "Maltese Falcon" with the back and forth between the PI and collector.

Henry is wealthy or the setting suggests it. Having a Korean escort, meeting at a restaurant with tuxedoed busboys, doubling his salary are swaggers of wealth. Yet his wife is a teaching assistant? At the University of Maryland? Then she's working in a lab, not a studio? That, to me, was out of context and drew me completely out of the scene. I'd be more effusive.

Code:

HENRY She spends most of her time at the university's art department. JACK You suspect she's fooling around with one of the art professors then. Henry takes a sip, smiles and sets it down. HENRY That is precisely what I'm hiring you to find out. How my beautiful wife spends her time ... and with whom. The University of Maryland isn't, after all, Columbia or Harvard. JACK I'll need her schedule, people she ... Henry picks up his napkin, placing it on his lap and gestures to the waiter. HENRY She leaves around 8:30 am each day. The rest is what I'm paying you to find out for me Mr. Dolan. The waiter approaches. HENRY (to waiter) Yes, I'll have the sherry braised veal with the champignons toulains. (to Jack) Would you like something, Mr. Dolan? JACK I'm fine. Henry gestures towards Jack. HENRY (to waiter) Another wine glass for my friend. The waiter nods and disappears. JACK (irritated) Look, if you want me to find out about your wife, I'm gonna need more than that to work with. HENRY If I knew more, why would I need to engage the services of a private investigator. I was told you're one of the best. Was I misled? The waiter returns with a glass and sets it in front of Jack. He then fills it with wine. Jack is hesitant then takes and downs it. ...

I'd stop there. Henry plays with people. He'd make Dolan earn the money. You're dialogue lays it out too much. While I'm sure the Korean protege plays a role, he is superfluous in this scene. I would take him out or make him more directly relevant. Everything in a scene needs to be integral to advancing the story. His presence or absence in this segment has no impact. And it actually impedes the flow.

Good dialogue means being concise, true to the motivation, and advancing the story action. While your segment isn't bad, as a reader/viewer it just missed the mark on these in places--seeming off and slowing down the story. Good luck.

Thanks for the strong input. I think I know what's going on here, which is obviously going to cause issues when I sit with my actors to have a one-on-one discussion about their characters. What everyone is reading on the paper is almost opposite of what I'm trying portray.

I'm not looking for a P.I like Sam Spade. He has a very in depth back story that explains why he acts the way he does. He's ambivalent and snide because he genuinely doesn't care much about his life anymore and he doesn't bother getting a drink because wine isn't his choice of alcohol. He always carries a flask of whiskey and is always drunk.

Also, Henry only knows as much as the advertisements say about Jack, which is why he has his cell phone number and knows what he looks like. He's not trying to get his wife to cheat on him with Jack. He just wants Jack to confirm that she's cheating on him and he wants it to be a fact in their marriage to sort of enrich the "portrait" of her. Actually, this is really the only time you see the artist and his role isn't all the crucial.

The Asian guy was placed there to make the situation slightly offbeat. His role isn't crucial for driving the story but it does make you wonder who the Asian guy is and why he's just sitting there saying nothing. There is no need or desire for me to want to expand further on that Asian guy because he's just there to invoke curiosity, sort of like this whole scene. I guess I was just trying to avoid a slow and draggy dialogue scene.

All in all, my intent was to create characters who on the surface look like the typical personality types but who in fact are much much more complicated than they appear to be on the surface. I guess that's why everyone has kept saying that the dialogue is mismatched because everyone is expecting the P.I to behave in a certain way. However, if I gave you the back story it would make a lot more sense.

rayw · Sep 5, 2012

Yeah, it's very difficult to develop a nuanced character in just a scene, let alone in a few pages.

Like I said, as a stand alone complete short - meh, but as a scene from a larger piece - it's fair.

Firm1 · Sep 5, 2012

rayw said:
Yeah, it's very difficult to develop a nuanced character in just a scene, let alone in a few pages.

Like I said, as a stand alone complete short - meh, but as a scene from a larger piece - it's fair.

Sweet. Then, I guess I'm on track. Thanks guys!

FantasySciFi · Sep 5, 2012

I reorganized your paragraphs a little.

Firm1 said:
Thanks for the strong input. I think I know what's going on here, which is obviously going to cause issues when I sit with my actors to have a one-on-one discussion about their characters. What everyone is reading on the paper is almost opposite of what I'm trying portray.

All in all, my intent was to create characters who on the surface look like the typical personality types but who in fact are much much more complicated than they appear to be on the surface. I guess that's why everyone has kept saying that the dialogue is mismatched because everyone is expecting the P.I to behave in a certain way. However, if I gave you the back story it would make a lot more sense.

Unfortunately if you go back and look at what you just said, you are still describing a stereotypical image.
The backstory affects the acting not necessarily the dialogue. The viewing audience judges the characters by their actions and what they say.

Main Characters - develop nuance & backstory visually and through dialogue
Supporting Characters - Recur throughout but are not the focus, so provide backstory & nuance that relate them to the main characters.
Extra Characters - Occur once or twice, they require only contextual relevance, maybe a few lines
Background Characters - no development necessary and are mentioned only in passing in descriptions or action statements

Firm1 said:
I'm not looking for a P.I like Sam Spade. He has a very in depth back story that explains why he acts the way he does. He's ambivalent and snide because he genuinely doesn't care much about his life anymore and he doesn't bother getting a drink because wine isn't his choice of alcohol. He always carries a flask of whiskey and is always drunk.

You still have your wounded hero who retreats into a bottle which sounds like most film noir detectives, who don't care about their lives and were hurt by a bad relationship. It doesn't matter what his backstory is here since you're not sharing it with the audience in this scene. And while alcoholics tend to have preferred drinks, if he's reached that depth of being 'always drunk', he'll likely reach for anything with alcohol. Or in the example I gave, he could hold his hand over the glass when the waiter goes to fill it and then fill it from his flask. Anyone who is 'always drunk' will look for an excuse to drink.

Firm1 said:
Also, Henry only knows as much as the advertisements say about Jack, which is why he has his cell phone number and knows what he looks like. He's not trying to get his wife to cheat on him with Jack. He just wants Jack to confirm that she's cheating on him and he wants it to be a fact in their marriage to sort of enrich the "portrait" of her. Actually, this is really the only time you see the artist and his role isn't all the crucial.

A PI would NEVER give out his private number in an ad. Think about it, with today's phones, you can localize where a person is. Not good if you have enemies. Why pick a detective with 12-5 hours? There are warning signs of going with this loser detective. If the artist is rich and ONLY wants someone to prove his wife is having an affair, why this guy? Why pay him double? One illogical premise on another. While there can be some suspension of belief, non-fantasy movies need to follow conventional logic to be drama or the other extreme as comedies. The phone dialogue suggests a degree of intensity that you are stating isn't there for someone who just wants his wife followed.

Honestly, I don't understand why you feel the artist's role ISN'T crucial. If he's that insignificant, you're devoting too much script time to him in this segment. Keep it short and simple. "I need you to follow my wife and report back to me." If he only appears once, he doesn't need to be colorful. Again, here is a character who is acting just like you'd expect without any deeper complications apparent--jealous, scheming, snobbish. Now how you prep your actors' motivations is a different matter. It will affect HOW they deliver the lines.

The dialogue, as written, hints at more. Since it's the only time we see Henry, it's wasted words. If the artist, Henry, only appears once, he's just an "extra"; you're overthinking his dialogue. You made the audience want to know more about him and then never show him again. Just let him hire Jack and move on. It will keep this dialogue segment short so you can move on to the main meat of your story--Jack and his wife. Don't waste screen time on extras. That's back story you can develop with your main characters.

And you especially don't need to drag in extraneous characters like ...

Firm1 said:
The Asian guy was placed there to make the situation slightly offbeat. His role isn't crucial for driving the story but it does make you wonder who the Asian guy is and why he's just sitting there saying nothing. There is no need or desire for me to want to expand further on that Asian guy because he's just there to invoke curiosity, sort of like this whole scene. I guess I was just trying to avoid a slow and draggy dialogue scene.

Cut him. If neither he nor the artist reappear it is just a negative distraction. He doesn't change the pace of the dialogue but does disrupt the scene. I didn't see it as offbeat. As an audience member, I hate when directors throw in irrelevant items. For me, it invokes curiosity that turns into frustration. It does make me think less of a movie at the end.

I appreciate your sharing your thought processes. Since you are putting your time, energy and MONEY into this project, you need to really think about relevance. One page of script is roughly five hours of filming. And from what you've shared, this dialogue between Jack and a one-time character is way too long. We don't need to know about the artist to appreciate what follows since the artist never re-appears. Anything we need to know can be revealed later through the interactions of Jack and his wife.

I know it's hard to slice out portions of one's script, but really there is an advantage to moving into the meat of your story rather than waste time on exposition between characters that don't re-appear. I know some will disagree but a lot of those sequences end up on the cutting room floor (well, in the old days. :-P). Jack takes a job for a wealthy guy. We never see that guy again, so who cares why he wants his wife followed. We don't care who's with the guy we never see again. You're not adding MORE to the story by including it. By making it barebones you save TIME and MONEY, important in film making.

Please realize that I'm not trying to be harsh towards your script. If Henry were recurring, yes, you could do more backstory. If the Korean were integral, yes, he can appear enigmatically to be made relevant later. But as you described it, neither of these is the case. A writer needs to develop the characters that make multiple appearances and focus on moving the story (keep it from getting boring). You especially don't add extraneous items/characters because the scene is BORING TO WRITER. Don't tease your audience if you don't follow through; it backfires every time. If you're gut says it's boring, chances are it's a good candidate to cut or severely edit. Good luck as you move forward.

Firm1 · Sep 5, 2012

FantasySciFi said:
I reorganized your paragraphs a little.

Unfortunately if you go back and look at what you just said, you are still describing a stereotypical image.
The backstory affects the acting not necessarily the dialogue. The viewing audience judges the characters by their actions and what they say.

Main Characters - develop nuance & backstory visually and through dialogue
Supporting Characters - Recur throughout but are not the focus, so provide backstory & nuance that relate them to the main characters.
Extra Characters - Occur once or twice, they require only contextual relevance, maybe a few lines
Background Characters - no development necessary and are mentioned only in passing in descriptions or action statements

You still have your wounded hero who retreats into a bottle which sounds like most film noir detectives, who don't care about their lives and were hurt by a bad relationship. It doesn't matter what his backstory is here since you're not sharing it with the audience in this scene. And while alcoholics tend to have preferred drinks, if he's reached that depth of being 'always drunk', he'll likely reach for anything with alcohol. Or in the example I gave, he could hold his hand over the glass when the waiter goes to fill it and then fill it from his flask. Anyone who is 'always drunk' will look for an excuse to drink.

A PI would NEVER give out his private number in an ad. Think about it, with today's phones, you can localize where a person is. Not good if you have enemies. Why pick a detective with 12-5 hours? There are warning signs of going with this loser detective. If the artist is rich and ONLY wants someone to prove his wife is having an affair, why this guy? Why pay him double? One illogical premise on another. While there can be some suspension of belief, non-fantasy movies need to follow conventional logic to be drama or the other extreme as comedies. The phone dialogue suggests a degree of intensity that you are stating isn't there for someone who just wants his wife followed.

Honestly, I don't understand why you feel the artist's role ISN'T crucial. If he's that insignificant, you're devoting too much script time to him in this segment. Keep it short and simple. "I need you to follow my wife and report back to me." If he only appears once, he doesn't need to be colorful. Again, here is a character who is acting just like you'd expect without any deeper complications apparent--jealous, scheming, snobbish. Now how you prep your actors' motivations is a different matter. It will affect HOW they deliver the lines.

The dialogue, as written, hints at more. Since it's the only time we see Henry, it's wasted words. If the artist, Henry, only appears once, he's just an "extra"; you're overthinking his dialogue. You made the audience want to know more about him and then never show him again. Just let him hire Jack and move on. It will keep this dialogue segment short so you can move on to the main meat of your story--Jack and his wife. Don't waste screen time on extras. That's back story you can develop with your main characters.

And you especially don't need to drag in extraneous characters like ...

Cut him. If neither he nor the artist reappear it is just a negative distraction. He doesn't change the pace of the dialogue but does disrupt the scene. I didn't see it as offbeat. As an audience member, I hate when directors throw in irrelevant items. For me, it invokes curiosity that turns into frustration. It does make me think less of a movie at the end.

I appreciate your sharing your thought processes. Since you are putting your time, energy and MONEY into this project, you need to really think about relevance. One page of script is roughly five hours of filming. And from what you've shared, this dialogue between Jack and a one-time character is way too long. We don't need to know about the artist to appreciate what follows since the artist never re-appears. Anything we need to know can be revealed later through the interactions of Jack and his wife.

I know it's hard to slice out portions of one's script, but really there is an advantage to moving into the meat of your story rather than waste time on exposition between characters that don't re-appear. I know some will disagree but a lot of those sequences end up on the cutting room floor (well, in the old days. :-P). Jack takes a job for a wealthy guy. We never see that guy again, so who cares why he wants his wife followed. We don't care who's with the guy we never see again. You're not adding MORE to the story by including it. By making it barebones you save TIME and MONEY, important in film making.

Please realize that I'm not trying to be harsh towards your script. If Henry were recurring, yes, you could do more backstory. If the Korean were integral, yes, he can appear enigmatically to be made relevant later. But as you described it, neither of these is the case. A writer needs to develop the characters that make multiple appearances and focus on moving the story (keep it from getting boring). You especially don't add extraneous items/characters because the scene is BORING TO WRITER. Don't tease your audience if you don't follow through; it backfires every time. If you're gut says it's boring, chances are it's a good candidate to cut or severely edit. Good luck as you move forward.

I don't think you're being harsh at all. I love the honesty and I agree with a lot of your points. Still keeping the asian guy and the story of why the guy wants his wife to cheat on him because even though he, himself doesn't show up again in the movie, except for maybe once towards the end, his story is very important for the development of Marissa and her affair with another guy. It basically makes it all the more tragic because she decides to go back to the husband. So yeah, he's definitely a supporting character, only one that doesn't show up that often. And as far as the asian guy goes....Well, I think that's just something we disagree on. I love it when movies add that offbeat character who doesn't really say much and only shows up once.

Anyway, you're definitely write about the major edits part. I don't think it needs to be cut since it is important for developing the full story, but it needs to be tinkered down to something that is A. more believable and B. less wordy. Basically keep the core concept of what I was saying but in less words.

Seriously though, this was amazing input. I sincerely appreciate this because you're right. Even though I'm not putting my own money into this, its someone else's and its going to take a lot of time and energy. Every facet of the movie needs to be completely thought out, so what you said was a major help.

mlesemann · Sep 6, 2012

Even though I'm not putting my own money into this, its someone else's and its going to take a lot of time and energy.

Now I'm confused. I thought you're shooting this yourself? Do you have the funding already lined up? Not asking who is funding, just if it's in place.

AnywhereButHollywood · Sep 6, 2012

First thing I notice is you've got a lot of small talk going on. One of the primary rules of screenwriting: arrive late, leave early.

Here's what you've written:

JACK
(Horse voice)
Yeah?

HENRY FELSTEDT
(British Accent)
Hello. Jack Dolan?

JACK
Yeah.

HENRY FELSTEDT
Private investigator?

JACK
(Annoyed)
What?

HENRY FELSTEDT
This is Henry Felstedt.

JACK
I’m not open for business un...

HENRY
Yes, I read your hours on the ad. But, 12- 5 is a bit of a narrow work schedule, wouldn’t you say?

JACK gives a long sigh as he scratches the side of his nose.

HENRY
I’m just going to get right to it. I’m in need of your services and will pay whatever it takes to get the answers I want.

JACK
Alright…Let’s meet later.

HENRY
How does lunch sound?

JACK
That’s fine.

HENRY
Marvolous. We’ll meet at Demitri’s downtown. They have a wonderful Rosary Chicken that goes excellent with a fine Cabernet. It’s just wonderful. Well, Listen, I’ve got to run now, but we’ll have to catch up later. Does 12:30 work for you?

JACK
(slightly confused expression)
Yeah…

HENRY
Great. Then, we’ll see you there. Chow.

---------
---------

Now here are my thoughts on that exchange:

Lose the parentheticals (e.g., "horse" - which should be "hoarse", btw).
Do we know who Henry is? Is this the first time he's introduced to us, the audience? If this is his intro, he should simply be the British voice on the phone, until he is more formally introduced. But that's a small thing.
Lose the "Jack?" "Yeah?" "PI?" "Yeah?" etc....
If we know he's a PI, we don't need that exchange. If we don't know he's a PI there are far better ways of showing that he is.
Why not just have the PI pick up the phone, and have the other guy get straight to the point? Forget the small talk and niceties. Jack could complain about business hours first thing out of his mouth. That also shifts the focus of this exchange to a conflict, which is helpful.
Why do we need to hear them making lunch arrangements? Why not just have Jack sigh (or whatever) and then cut to them having lunch?

FOR EXAMPLE:

Dolan answers the phone, bleary-eyed.

MAN'S VOICE (on phone)
Mr. Dolan, I’m in need of your services.

DOLAN
My hours are--

VOICE
And will pay whatever it takes to get the answers I want.

Dolan sighs.

(cut to the lunch scene)

Same goes for the lunch scene, btw. Anything you can show, don't tell. Get in late, leave early. Skip the banal niceties and greetings, unless you have a really good reason for keeping them.