Need help narrowing down my list of Pro Camcorders

[Nolam]

Hey guys!

I'm an amateur filmmaker and I'm looking into getting a good, affordable Professional Camcorder for less than $3000. I'm in High School and will be needing it to make a collection of videos for my portfolio for colleges, and I want it to last me a long time.

The camera I'm seriously considering at the moment is the Canon XF100 (link here). It's perfect for my budget, seems very highly rated, and has a lot of features and extremely high quality footage

I can deal with the CF cards' price and gain problems that people are talking about (seems to have been fixed in a firmware update and with the custom profiles people have made). What concerns me is that people are saying that one CMOS 1/3" sensor isn't good enough. Also, it is almost two years old.

What are your guys' thoughts? What else should I look into? (I am NOT getting a DSLR or any variation)

Thanks
-David

 

[Jeff Troiano]

That canon is a great camera. 4:2:2 color sampling at 50mb/s 24p and 30p recording.

Understand you aren't interested in a DSLR. But I will say, one of the things a lot of independent film makers are interested in, is achieving that shallow depth of field. If you don't know what that is, that's when you have a subject in focus, with an out of focus background. When I was younger and messed around with my first "camcorder", that was the thing that disappointed me the most, was I wasn't able to get this.

The sensor size is where this comes into play. With a 1/3" sensor, pretty much everything you shoot, everything in frame, will be 100% in focus.

Now since you are more interested in a camcorder as opposed to a DSLR, here are some suggestions that I think you might be interested in looking into, that are in your price range.

First Sony NEXVG20. They are replacing this soon, and good deals are to be had. You get get any number of E mount lens, and with have good capabilities.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/818266-REG/Sony_NEXVG20_NEX_VG20_Interchangeable_Lens_HD.html

2nd, the Sony NEXVG30. This is the new version of the above, and is a preorder right now, as it hasn't been released. Comes with the 18-200 lens.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/890797-REG/Sony_NEX_VG30_Camcorder_with_18_200mm.html

And third, if you have a little room to stretch your budget, the NEX-EU50UH, comes with the 18-200 servo zoom lens. But pushes your budget some.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/887069-REG/Sony_nex_ea50h_Sony_NEX_EA50_Camcorder_with.html

Again, I think from a film maker standpoint, sensor size is where you want to look around. That canon is a good camera, but not necessarily for indie film making.

 

[Nolam]

Thanks for your input,

I did build a nice little DOF adapter to which I can attach my SLR's lenses to for when I need a really really shallow DOF on something. Also, from what I've seen searching around, a lot of people have found tricks on how to give the XF100 a shallow DOF.
(For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E7-oKo0iMw )

Those two Sony models do look nice, however I am a fan of the near-thousand buttons on the XF100, haha. Not exactly sure, but from looking at it, it seems that the XF100 does have more customization and features in regards to the little things.

 

[Jeff Troiano]

Again, I can't discount that canon. I'd love to have a couple of them, for documentary and reality type applications.

With film making, your going to learn a lot about lighting. When I first got back into this hobby (about 3 years ago) I was looking into a Sony EX1 (think that's what it was) with DOF adapter. One thing I learned, is using a DOF adapter will reduce the amount of light that actually hits the sensor. So you'll have to light your scenes extra, to achieve the same thing.

Another suggest. Have you started looking into schools? Have you checked out what equipment their using? I have some friends who went to a local school, and I think they were using canon 7D's (they graduated a couple years ago). So you might want to find out what kind of equipment the school will be using, and that may influence your purchase.

I'm not here proclaiming DSLR is the way to go. I didn't go with a DSLR either, although I've since bought one, used mainly for still photo and timelapse.

 

[Alcove Audio]

And what are you doing about audio?

Your visuals will only look as good as they sound.

Sound is half of the experience.

 

[Nolam]

So far I've been looking at USC, NYU, UNC, and CMU (to say the least).

My top choice would be USC (very hard to get into, however) and second would be NYU (again, also a tough one), and they both provide cameras and materials for students with no charge (except for the huge tuition bill that is) and they have top of the line industry cameras (Red, Alexa, and beyond) as well as new and old film (35mm, 16mm, 8mm) cameras.

So far I haven't seen any DSLRs on campus or mentioned.


As for audio, I have an ATR-6550 shotgun but am considering looking into something new. Any suggestions?
(Again, another reason I like the XF-100 is the built-in audio system it has, whereas others like the Handycams require a $700 add-on rig)

 

[Phil_UK]

Try and find a used FS100 on ebay!

 

[Nolam]

Try and find a used FS100 on ebay!

I'm looking for a long-term camera, so I'll be wanting to buy it through an approved Canon Retailer so that I can get it warranty repaired or repaired if need be.

 

[brunerww]

Hi Nolam - if you want to stick with small sensor camcorders, you might want to take a look at the $2575 Panasonic Z10000 2D/3D professional camcorder instead of the $2995 XF100. The 2D/3D capable Z10000 is currently marked down from $3700 to $2575 at Amazon. And it has just as many buttons as the Canon

Like the XF100, the Z10000 is a pro camera with 2 XLR inputs, 60p and dual card slots.

Here is what it can do in 2D:

Timelapse: https://vimeo.com/45757690

2D test footage (please watch in 1080p): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq_YvJf0hZk

Review from Trusted Reviews in the UK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHoHo1O0Mgg

Hope this is helpful,

Bill

 

[RealJasonBourne]

I'm saving up for a Black Magic Cinema camera, 1080P is going down the drain soon

 

[Alcove Audio]

As for audio, I have an ATR-6550 shotgun but am considering looking into something new. Any suggestions?

The range (without accessories) is from $190 to $2,400 for a shotgun mic. What's your audio budget?

... another reason I like the XF-100 is the built-in audio system it has...

It is only fair. It only has 16 bit recording (24 bit gives you substantially more headroom), although it is 48kHz. The XLR inputs are over the focusing ring, as are all the rest of the audio controls; that will be a real PITA for your sound guy, especially when you're on a dolly pulling focus and he needs to adjust the audio input levels. Production sound is not "set it and forget it," it is just as demanding a craft as cinematography and overlooked by a vast majority of filmmakers to their ultimate regret.

Unless you are doing strictly documentary, interviews or ENG work you should always consider your camera to be a film camera with no audio capabilities.

You seem to be entirely focused (pun partially intended) on the visuals. That's great if you want to be a DP/Cinematographer. But if you want to direct you are almost completely ignoring sound, an integral aspect of the filmmaking process.

"Sound is half of the experience." - Steven Spielberg

 

[jax_rox]

1080P is going down the drain soon

According to who? 1080p is almost 2k. With the BMCC, you get max 2.5k, which is not that much more than 1080 HD. ProRes is still is 1080 on the BMCC.

On the Alexa, arguably the most popular digital cine camera in Hollywood records natively in 1080 HD, and only records up to 3k with an external recorder. Deakins mentioned that In Time was shot in HD on the Alexa, and some shots in Skyfall were shot in ProRes 4444 1080 when they needed a smaller footprint, with no noticeable quality difference on projection to the higher resolution ARRIRAW.

There are parts of the world were SD still hasn't gone down the drain, especially in television broadcast.

2k is still the standard for cinema projection.

 

[Nolam]

Hi Nolam - if you want to stick with small sensor camcorders, you might want to take a look at the $2575 Panasonic Z10000 2D/3D professional camcorder instead of the $2995 XF100. The 2D/3D capable Z10000 is currently marked down from $3700 to $2575 at Amazon. And it has just as many buttons as the Canon

Like the XF100, the Z10000 is a pro camera with 2 XLR inputs, 60p and dual card slots.

Thanks Bill! I'll look into it as it now has the same pricetag as the XF100 (which can be found for $2500 as well). Not sure that I'll ever be needing 3D, though.

I'm saving up for a Black Magic Cinema camera, 1080P is going down the drain soon

I was looking into Black Magic, however it just doesn't have what I need (a good package all in one device). Plus I can honestly say that I won't be needing 2K, and if I do it won't be until College when I'll be able to acquire 4k cameras for use.

The range (without accessories) is from $190 to $2,400 for a shotgun mic. What's your audio budget?



It is only fair. It only has 16 bit recording (24 bit gives you substantially more headroom), although it is 48kHz. The XLR inputs are over the focusing ring, as are all the rest of the audio controls; that will be a real PITA for your sound guy, especially when you're on a dolly pulling focus and he needs to adjust the audio input levels. Production sound is not "set it and forget it," it is just as demanding a craft as cinematography and overlooked by a vast majority of filmmakers to their ultimate regret.

Unless you are doing strictly documentary, interviews or ENG work you should always consider your camera to be a film camera with no audio capabilities.

You seem to be entirely focused (pun partially intended) on the visuals. That's great if you want to be a DP/Cinematographer. But if you want to direct you are almost completely ignoring sound, an integral aspect of the filmmaking process.

"Sound is half of the experience." - Steven Spielberg

I really could use some help with sound in the fact that I have no idea what the hell I'm doing with it haha. I am focused mainly on the visuals but wish I knew what to do in that department. My budget for sound isn't going to be much after I get the camera.

If you could give me some recommendations for the lower-end equipment that I should look into, I'd be extremely grateful. I won't necessarily be having a dedicated sound guy on anything I'll be doing. That guy will be me or a friend (who will just do what I tell him).

 

[Alcove Audio]

I really could use some help with sound in the fact that I have no idea what the hell I'm doing... My budget for sound isn't going to be much after I get the camera.

And that will be your first mistake, and a very large one. Reread the Spielberg quote; "Sound is HALF of the experience." If you spend $3k on a camera what do you have left to spend on sound? It's been a while since school, but if I remember my math correctly $1,500 is half of $3,000.

What you really need to be doing is finding a partner who loves sound as much as you love picture. Because it won't matter a damn how pretty your pictures are if your projects have crappy sound

If you could give me some recommendations for the lower-end equipment that I should look into, I'd be extremely grateful.

Your budget should be in the neighborhood of $1,000. You need a digital audio recorder, shotgun mic, hypercardioid mic, boom-pole, shock-mount, wind protection and cables. These will all be consumer/prosumer quality at this budget level.

I won't necessarily be having a dedicated sound guy on anything I'll be doing. That guy will be me or a friend (who will just do what I tell him).

And you will tell him to do what? Do you understand gain-staging? How about the proper aiming point for a boomed mic? How about the proper way to hold a boom-pole? If you don't understand any of this how will you explain it to this friend? That is why you should look for an audio partner.

If you want to direct you ignore sound at your own peril. More otherwise worthy projects fail because of poor sound than for any other technical reason. You can have a great story, terrific actors, and the film may look fantastic, but if your sound is bad no one will give a crap about anything else. Your visuals will only look as good as they sound, because "Sound is HALF of the experience."

 

[Nolam]

And that will be your first mistake, and a very large one. Reread the Spielberg quote; "Sound is HALF of the experience." If you spend $3k on a camera what do you have left to spend on sound? It's been a while since school, but if I remember my math correctly $1,500 is half of $3,000.

What you really need to be doing is finding a partner who loves sound as much as you love picture. Because it won't matter a damn how pretty your pictures are if your projects have crappy sound



Your budget should be in the neighborhood of $1,000. You need a digital audio recorder, shotgun mic, hypercardioid mic, boom-pole, shock-mount, wind protection and cables. These will all be consumer/prosumer quality at this budget level.



And you will tell him to do what? Do you understand gain-staging? How about the proper aiming point for a boomed mic? How about the proper way to hold a boom-pole? If you don't understand any of this how will you explain it to this friend? That is why you should look for an audio partner.

If you want to direct you ignore sound at your own peril. More otherwise worthy projects fail because of poor sound than for any other technical reason. You can have a great story, terrific actors, and the film may look fantastic, but if your sound is bad no one will give a crap about anything else. Your visuals will only look as good as they sound, because "Sound is HALF of the experience."

Like I said, I've come here willing to learn and look for suggestions, not uncalled for criticism. If you don't want to help point me in the right direction then I'll look somewhere else. All I've seen so far is pejorative questions and statements, not one link to a product or page like the others here point out errors in judgement or assumption in a more kind manor and help me get going in the right direction.

Now, you've said the same thing over and over again, and I understand that sound is just as important as visuals and can admit I only have moderate experience in the field. Is there any place you can refer me to to help gain a more proper learning ground? And are there any products specifically that you would recommend to me?

P.S. (Also I would have to disagree with the fact that no one would care about it if the sound was crappy and everything else was amazing. Sure, anyone on this forum might, but the average viewer would just feel moderate discomfort in that field. Not giving that as an excuse, but that's a pretty general statement. And no, I don't want to argue about this because frankly it's a waste of my time.)

 

[Alcove Audio]

I'll make audio recommendations if you give a audio budget.

I make my case very forcefully, and if I seem to repeat myself it's because the lesson needs to sink in; 98% of the time it never does.

You can disagree with my position regarding quality everything except the sound all you want. Just name one - only one - successful film that has poor sound.

 

[rayw]

Nolam -

Yes, I understand you're PRIMARILY looking for camera info.
And I also understand what trouble Alcove is trying to keep you out of - and completely agree with both of you.

Considering the camera price range you're looking at I have a fairly decent idea about what kind of "total production budget" films you'll likely be making.
Recently I started Lo/no budget review thread: http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=44510
The audio collection (and often the mix, too) is a complete disaster.
>> Alcove and A.P.E.: COVER YOUR EARS! <<

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_7bKJnf-xU

Now, if only the director/producer of "Hunting Grounds" had taken to heart what fellow IT-er eikerir has posted in this recent post then the COMPLETE production product would have been much better. (But probably not saved from that lousy audio/score mix. OMG!): http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?p=296939#post296939

Nolam, you don't want to make the same mistake.


Edit: Also - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_mkp168RL0&feature=plcp
And: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhHN6F-pPFY&feature=plcp

 

[Nolam]

Like I've said, I completely understand that I need the proper sound equipment and knowledge as well.

I've looked into it and think I can probably bring up around $400 for it. I've also looked into some recorders and such.

I do have a shotgun mic (ATR6550, I'm sure I could do better than that though) and a boom pole plus a shit ton of cables (trust me, I won't be finding myself needing any more.)

What do you think of the TASCAM DR-40 ?
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/821259-REG/Tascam_DR_40_DR_40_4_Track_Handheld_Digital.html

Thanks!
-David

 

[Alcove Audio]

DR-40 is okay. Take a look at the DR-100mkII; it's down to around $250.

The ATR6550 is a high impedance mic. You'll have fewer issues with a low impedance mic like the Audio Technica AT875 or the Rode NTG-1.

Do you have a shock-mount and wind protection? And the cables are XLR cables?

 

[Nolam]

DR-40 is okay. Take a look at the DR-100mkII; it's down to around $250.

The ATR6550 is a high impedance mic. You'll have fewer issues with a low impedance mic like the Audio Technica AT875 or the Rode NTG-1.

Alright I'll look into those

Do you have a shock-mount and wind protection? And the cables are XLR cables?

I do have wind protection but I need to get a shock-mount, and yes I have plenty of XLR cables.

EDIT: Actually the DR-100mkII is only about $200 on BH!
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/832911-REG/Tascam_DR100MKII_DR_100mkII_Portable_Linear.html
Why exactly would you recommend it over the 40?