cinematography Need "Beat the hell out of him" shooting techniques

[Re-Maker]

I am writing a script where a fairly fit man (A) beats the hell out of a fairly fat one (B). I would appreciate if forum members can share their techniques on shooting such scenes.

I am particularly need to shoot the following:

1) Box on the ear (hard slap in the face) so that man B who was sitting on an arm-chair falls on the floor.

2) Triple noser (conk) so that man's B nose starts bleeding.

3) Slam on man's B fingers with glass ashtray so his fingers get cut

4) Man B is laying on the floor while man A is holding man's B hair and is beating his head off the floor.

I desperately looking for "tasty", "natural", "believable" and "filmy" shots.

Please, please, please! Share with me!

 

[directorik]

What you are asking about has less to do with cinematography
and lighting than it does with acting, stunt choreography and
makeup. I'm not saying the camera angle is unimportant - only
that the other three things are what will really "sell" a scene
like that.

1) A good stunt person can react to a non-hit (where there in
no actual contact) and fall off a chair. Some will use a pad out
of camera range, some will use pads under their costume so
you can show him hitting the floor.

2) Best done with camera angle and cutting. Shoot from behind
the man being hit so there is no contact - cut to a close up, his
head back, blood in his nose; as he drops his head forward the
blood will spill out.

3) Same idea. Or you can use a fake hand getting slammed with
the ashtray.

4) This can be done by any good stuntman.

The camera angles should be chosen by you or the DP to get the
shot that looks best to you.

 

[chilipie]

Great tips from Rik, but seeing the forum it's in… try and use a long lens, at least 50mm but an 85mm would be better still. Use of telephoto lenses results in compression distortion that makes objects appear closer/the difference in size is lessened. A good example of this can be seen here:

A telephoto lens will sell your hits and punches more effectively than a wide-angle one while keeping your actors safe.

Lastly, I think I'm right in saying that crop factor has no effect on this - you need to be using an actual telephoto lens, rather than FOV of a 50mm/85mm etc. taking account of the 1.6x crop factor, if you want the perspective distortion to be apparent and to take advantage of it.

 

[Ernest Worthing]

Lastly, I think I'm right in saying that crop factor has no effect on this - you need to be using an actual telephoto lens, rather than FOV of a 50mm/85mm etc. taking account of the 1.6x crop factor, if you want the perspective distortion to be apparent and to take advantage of it.

Absolutely right.

And other than the advice added above, i recommend to watch films and break them to see some of the ways these things can be done. Pick 5 of the action sequences you think are similar to what you want to achieve and watch them shot by shot. Im not saying to copy other films but if you dont know how to accomplish something, this will show you some examples of some possible ways it can be accomplished.

By the way, Chili, the guy who took those photos didnt keep the framing consistent. They get the point across but just for OP's technical sake, its the distance to keep the same framing that causes the perspective distortion you're looking for, not the focal length itself.

EDIT: Actually, now that i think about it, wont the crop factor force you to move even further back to get the same framing, so it would affect perspective distortion. Between a FF and a crop factor.
It just wouldnt affect the comparative perspective distortion because ur already used to the camera's crop factor.
So scratch the 'absolutely right' part. My mistake.

EDIT EDIT: Before i start a crop factor and fov debate, let me just clarify what i wrote above.

To get the same shot, your perspective compression would differ when using the same focal length between a FF and a crop sensor. Because with a crop sensor, you would have to stand further away to get the same shot.

It should not matter to you much if you are not comparing two different sensors. To get the same shot on the same camera while wanting compression distortion (as in the OP's case), simply use a longer lens (as Chili said) and move further away.