music in indie films
- Thread starter jfiegen
- Start date
First off, 
to IndieTalk.
Hopefully this answers your question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brStDyPNI7w
to IndieTalk. Hopefully this answers your question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brStDyPNI7w
Are indie filmakers interested in custom composed sound tracks for their work done by a serious professional, or would they just rather grab something off the web or make it in Garageband and make it fit? I know that budget is always the fall back excuse for not seeking help there, but the dialog recording, camera equipment and Foley never seem to suffer from budget.
That Film Riot video is brilliant!
"or make it in Garageband"
If you haven't been making music for a least a few years and on a daily basis for those few years, don't think you can just "make your own" and get away with it. You can't. Hahaha
His comment saying "you can easily make your own music" is complete BS.
"or make it in Garageband"
If you haven't been making music for a least a few years and on a daily basis for those few years, don't think you can just "make your own" and get away with it. You can't. Hahaha
His comment saying "you can easily make your own music" is complete BS.
Last edited:
I don't mean to seem harsh but you sound like either a composer who doesn't know much about film sound or you are a film sound expert being sarcastic. If it's the former, it's worth baring in mind that I doubt hardly any indietalk filmmakers have ever hired a serious professional Foley Artist, Foley Recordist or Foley Editor/Mixer, due to budget. And if anything the situation is worse with Foley than with the music because at least the filmmakers create some music in Garage Band or download free music from the web, whereas in most cases only the most obvious Foley is employed, footsteps for example, and the rest of the time the Foley is simply omitted! I also don't know of any indietalkers who own a professional standard production sound rig for recording dialogue. Those who take their filmmaking very seriously are limited by their budget to prosumer quality equipment, not to mention the fact that they do not have the budget for a "serious professional" Dialogue Editor or Mixer or even the equipment required to fulfil those roles to professional standards. I'll let someone else who knows more about that side of film making deal with the camera equipment issue!
I'm sure the vast majority of filmmakers here are interested in custom musical scores by a serious professional, they just don't have the budget, the same as they don't have the budget for serious professional sound recording, sound design, sound mixing or any of the other serious professional audio roles involved in film making.
G
Ok, You guys, I'm impressed with your honesty, so the invisibility cloak is off. I'm a serious hardworking composer and performing musician here in San Diego. i compose and submit to TAXI and Hit License on a weekly basis and grab whatever film work I can get. My weakness is attempting to elevate not so great films with the music I compose for them. i can't find much work doing this, but it's my passion, so i keep at it. i would love to do the score for the next Another Earth or Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. So i'm always looking for ways to do that, coming up soon, the 48hr Film Festival! Two days of indie mania!
Good luck on the 48 - it's can be a crazy couple of days but definitely worth it.
I do a lot of 48 hour film projects, my team has worked with composers/musicians a couple times but we don't do it much because it really gets tight with the schedule. We often don't have a tight cut of the film until a few hours before the deadline, so there's very little time to compose & record something original. When we have made it work it's generally because the musician is somehow involved in the project from the very beginning and can be working out ideas as we write and shoot.
I also personally find it difficult to get beyond the rough cut without having a good idea of what the music will sound like - it has such an impact on the mood, feel and pacing of a scene that I just can't see editing effectively without it. I don't like working with scratch tracks for that reason either - inevitably it becomes a part of how the scene works in my mind, and then whatever replaces it always seems slightly out of place or wrong.
A few years ago I cut way back on listening to the radio and other commercial music, because inevitably I'd get to know music that I really wanted to use but didn't have permission to. Instead I spend a lot of time listening to creative-commons licensed music from Jamendo, and I've gradually built up a library of albums, tracks and artists from around the world in many different styles that I really like and can freely use in our films (at least on a non-commercial basis). As a result I've also come to know a few of the artists (at least via chatting online/email/facebook, none of them are local) and had offers to do original soundtracks if we do films in the future without the time limits.
I do a lot of 48 hour film projects, my team has worked with composers/musicians a couple times but we don't do it much because it really gets tight with the schedule. We often don't have a tight cut of the film until a few hours before the deadline, so there's very little time to compose & record something original. When we have made it work it's generally because the musician is somehow involved in the project from the very beginning and can be working out ideas as we write and shoot.
I also personally find it difficult to get beyond the rough cut without having a good idea of what the music will sound like - it has such an impact on the mood, feel and pacing of a scene that I just can't see editing effectively without it. I don't like working with scratch tracks for that reason either - inevitably it becomes a part of how the scene works in my mind, and then whatever replaces it always seems slightly out of place or wrong.
A few years ago I cut way back on listening to the radio and other commercial music, because inevitably I'd get to know music that I really wanted to use but didn't have permission to. Instead I spend a lot of time listening to creative-commons licensed music from Jamendo, and I've gradually built up a library of albums, tracks and artists from around the world in many different styles that I really like and can freely use in our films (at least on a non-commercial basis). As a result I've also come to know a few of the artists (at least via chatting online/email/facebook, none of them are local) and had offers to do original soundtracks if we do films in the future without the time limits.
Here are some thoughts -- yes, I agree, the music quality in many films could be better, but will it elevate not-so-great films? I don't think so. It would have to be one heck of a great piece of music for me to keep watching an obviously not-so-great film beyond the :30 mark.
I'm a big fan of musicians (many are friends) and I'd like to see more paid gigs go their way. But I don't see that happening in the indie film world. Heck, even I didn't pay for the music I used in my feature film (but I did release a soundtrack CD).
My 2 cents.
Good luck.
There's a lot more money in licensing for TV right now, you're better off trying that.
Personally I'm not interested in that market because I feel you have to sell your soul to make it in there.
Having said that, I'm lucky because I like my career choice too and it leaves me with enough spare time to make music for films and stuff... I hope you get that opportunity.
Personally I'm not interested in that market because I feel you have to sell your soul to make it in there.
Having said that, I'm lucky because I like my career choice too and it leaves me with enough spare time to make music for films and stuff... I hope you get that opportunity.
Hmmm, that's a strange way of putting it, maybe it's another attempt at marketing yourself? Elevating any film with the musical score is not your personal weakness, it's a fundamental pre-requisite of any film score! Which filmmakers or film score composers attempt to not elevate or to degrade the quality of the film with the music score? Also, the mind set of a film score composer is different to that of a standard music composer because the quality of the composition does not define the quality of the final product. A great score cannot by itself convert a poor or mediocre film into a good film, although a bad score can turn a good film into a poor or mediocre one! The best a great score can do is make a mediocre film marginally less mediocre or support or not degrade what is otherwise already a great film.
G
I think you're being a bit harsh there, APE, there are some films I watch over and over because of how much I love the soundtrack, not because I particularly enjoy the story. It's the same with games, I play some games just because I love the music.
That's like saying "you can easily make your own film!
That's right. I went there. Seriously though - don't bank on throwing something together in Garageband and NOT having it sound like crap if you haven't:
1) Used it fairly extensively
2) Have decent stuff to line in to the computer itself
3) Can actually play
And even then, I've rarely seen single track (in this case, I mean a single instrument line) stuff actually work for either music or film. Let's face it, it's not easy to be precise enough to nail a whole piece in one sitting, especially if you're on a time crunch.
If you absolutely NEED music, I'd bet there's either local musicians (including church pianists, etc. I realized that's an avenue I've yet to explore. On it.) that'd be happy to work with you. Probably not for free, but I know a few that'd cut a track for less than $50 if I asked real nice.
Luck, mon ami.
I don't think I am being particularly harsh, just realistic. When we are talking about the commercial film going public we are talking about an extremely wide cross-section of people. For this reason you are always going to find some people for whom a world class example of just one of the filmmaking crafts is enough for them to justify spending their time/money to watch it, maybe more than once. For some it might be the presence of a particular actor or director, for others it might be the music, cinematography or even the VFX or sound. I'm absolutely certain you are not alone but I'm also certain that you are in a niche group, even though it might be a quite significant niche group, as proven by the fact that there is a separate market for film scores. However, to achieve a decent ROI on a film you have to target as large a spectrum of the public as possible, a spectrum which is already limited by the choice of the film's genre. This means making a good film rather than a bad film (where just one of the filmmaking crafts is executed very well). A good film is about how ALL the filmmaking crafts combine to tell the story!
In other words, a mediocre film with a great score is still always going to be a mediocre film, just slightly less mediocre to everyone except maybe a subset of members of the niche group which is particularly focused on music. Additionally, to fully exploit even that relatively small niche group a decent or even good score is not enough, it needs to be a great or even masterpiece level score.
G
Yeah, it's a niche, but we agree it's a pretty big one and I think the same goes for those who would enjoy a "world class example of just one of the filmaking crafts". The kinds that are used in schools and mentioned in reviews.
I also think a soundtrack has the ability to make a film memorable, even if it's an average film. Of course it also has the ability to make a film awful if it's too much, over the top (I hated Batman's music, especially in the 2nd film, for that reason. I'm a minority in that particular case) or just plain bad. A film that uses music well will imprint on you in a way another film will not, that's just what music does.
I also think a soundtrack has the ability to make a film memorable, even if it's an average film. Of course it also has the ability to make a film awful if it's too much, over the top (I hated Batman's music, especially in the 2nd film, for that reason. I'm a minority in that particular case) or just plain bad. A film that uses music well will imprint on you in a way another film will not, that's just what music does.
Yes, music can do this (make a film particularly memorable) but so can many of the other film crafts. Certain lines of dialogue in films and how they were performed would be a good example. Star Wars had a great score but in the late 70's I didn't hear many kids in the streets humming the great Star Wars themes but I did hear many kids playing with sticks and emulating the sound of a light sabre. There are other examples of VFX, cinematography and other film crafts which make a movie stick in the mind, even when the musical scores weren't that great. I'm not saying that the musical score is unimportant, far from it but ultimately it is only one of the film crafts. I could turn the argument around and ask how many people paid to see say Avatar specifically because of it's music score. If any one craft could be said to be responsible for the success and memorability of Avatar it would be the CGI team but all the crafts were very well executed on Avatar, as is the norm for a blockbuster. And, Avatar is by no means an isolated example. As a very fervent member of the music score niche and as an actual composer, you are obviously heavily biased towards the music film craft and that is why films need a good director, someone who can balance the fact that many of the crafts people involved in film making are heavily biased towards their own craft. Developing a deeper appreciation of how one's particular craft fits into the bigger picture IMHO makes one a better filmmaker/film crafts person.
G
Yes, I'm biased towards sound and music, of course, goes without saying.
What the point here is that you said one thing about music and now you're saying another - first you said music cannot elevate a film much beyond its original state and now you're saying it can. We agree the same can be said about any of the main elements that go into film making, including music.
I just felt that in the way you worded it you were discounting music from that group.
What the point here is that you said one thing about music and now you're saying another - first you said music cannot elevate a film much beyond its original state and now you're saying it can. We agree the same can be said about any of the main elements that go into film making, including music.
I just felt that in the way you worded it you were discounting music from that group.
No, I'm not saying anything different, I'm still saying that music cannot elevate a film much and the examples I gave are evidence of that. Ben Burtt's sound design for Star Wars is an example of genius sound design, nevertheless, how many kids in the late 70's would have been playing in the streets and emulating the sound of a light sabre if Star Wars had been a poor film in every other respect than it's sound design? The genius sound design in Star Wars elevated an already good film slightly and made it that much more memorable but no one, except the odd sound design aficionado, would remember the sound of a light sabre if Star Wars had been a bad film and tanked! How many people would have gone to see Avatar if all the crafts other than the CGI had been executed poorly? Music, as with all the other film crafts, has more power to ruin a film than to elevate it. In other words, a bad score can turn a good film into a bad film but a great score cannot turn a bad film into a good one, except possibly for a few fervent members of the music niche film audience.
I'm not picking on the music craft, this same assertion is true of all the film crafts. Even a great actor giving a great performance cannot make a good film, even great performances from all the actors, a great score, great sound, great script and great cinematography will not result in a good film if the picture editing is terrible. Likewise, even a genius picture editor cannot take a badly written, badly shot and badly acted film and turn it into a good film, especially if the score and the sound are also poor. In other words, ONLY a Producer/Director can make a good film, not any of the individual crafts, because a good film is dependant on how the crafts work in combination to tell the story and the only people who control how the crafts are combined are the producer and director.
G