Lets get serious about distribution

OK. When you think about film making long enough you realise that distribution is the key to the whole business. Without a paying audience film making is just an expensive hobby.

I've noticed that of all the topics that get discussed, distribution is the one that perhaps we talk about least. I think this is because although we all know that we can get a camera, write a script, shoot and edit a film, finding a paying audience is the one part of the equation that alludes most indie film makers worldwide.

I'd like us to change that. Seriously.

As a group we are spread all over the world and each of us is part of a larger, local film making community or even just part of a larger community with an interest in films.

I guess I'm wondering whether that is something that we can make work for ourselves.

Could we, for instance, set up our own international distribution circuit, showing indie films from around the world in local venues using video projection and PA's for the sound?

Just to put a perspective on this, most cinemas in the UK are charged $140-$200 a week to rent a film print, plus a percentage of the box office. This is the same whether it's the local mulit-plex or the local arthouse cinema. The problem with getting cinema distribution for indie films is that the film prints are so expensive, that print runs are kept low and this decreases the chances of the distributor making their money back.

So, lets imagine that between us, right now, we can set up ten UK based indie-cinemas (referred to from now on as i-cinema), maybe a couple in Europe, four in Oz and fifty across the US.

Let's say that an i-cinema is a video projector based cinema, in a non-traditional venue that has a showing once a month and that each night shows four shorts and a feature, charging $5 a head.

Providing that you can cut a deal with the venue in that they get to keep the bar receipts and therfore they give you the venue for free (a pretty easy deal to cut), if $100 dollars goes to the films ($80 to the feature, $5 to each of the shorts), therefore if you can get 50 people a month to the event, the organiser has $150 to cover any other expenses/profit.

This would mean that if a feature was shown across the entire network it would bring in $5000.

Now I know that this is small money, but the actual value of this is that you can build the credibilty of the film by opening it up to a global audience. This could be used either to lever a mainstream distribution deal or to drive direct DVD sales from a website.

The goal, of course is to set up a network of several thousand venues worldwide. With several thousand venues the maths gets to the point where distribution by this network alone becomes commercially viable for lo budget films.

Of course, there are issues. Of which the most important is, are there enough films of a high enough quality to build both audience and the reputation of i-cinema? The whole thing will die a death if people aren't stunned by the quality of the films.

So, talk to me. I'm not suggesting we set this up this week. All I'm doing is suggesting that we may have the power to do something about distribution, other than pretent that it isn't an issue. I'm open to ideas, but more importantly let's talk seriously about this subject and what strenghts we have as an international community.

Just to give a clear idea of where this could go, in the US alone, with just ten i-cinema per state, the takings for a feature from one showing across the whole network would be $400,000.
 
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Can't wait to hear your solution, Clive. The main problems I'm seeing are:
1) Getting an audience.
2) Getting funding to rent the venues
3) Controlling the returning funds

Hmmm... I'll think more... I'm heading out to my cinema now, I might ask around.
 
Actually I think it bears doing a bit of research on concert promotions and touring. By aligning with a promoter for the film(s) to be shown in x venue, you share the risk in every market. Customarily the promoter already has the relationships needed with the venue and the marketing/ advertising pipeline set up plus the ability to pre-sell tickets. Some artists do more than one show in a market in the same day, so could the film be shown more than once. Those same artists rotate in and out of major markets more than once a year building a bigger buzz to get into larger and larger venues. Why not do the same thing with the film(s). Most tours have an opening act and then THE big name... If you are getting the picture and it all makes sense to what you are talking about doing feel free to PM me or respond to the thread and I can get into more details.

Rock on! ~ Susan
 
Is this thread still active? If it is, I think most indy movie makers would be interested in some variatin of the basic idea. Do it Yourself. That's the way we made the movie. (I want to include digital video in with film.)

My suggestion: Somebody could set up a sign-up page. All interested idies indicate their willingness to work with the group. See how many you get and see what happens. After an initial period, ask for donations or some minimal joining fee--$5 or $10. If it's too high, the biggies will overpower it.
 
CootDog said:
Have any of you heard of or used: http://www.indieblaster.com/ ?

I remember when it was first being formed/starting up.

Looking over thier site, it seems to me they are charging upwards of thousands of dollars for a total wank-job.

They send out mass emails, create small "fan" sights, and try and load up your indie flick with as much fake-positive bullshit hot air publicity...

Thank you, but I am fully capable of blowing hot steam up my own arse!!

Who here would pay $30,000 (3 times the budget of our feature) to have some company write fake "positive" reviews on IMDB, send out spam to people's junk filters, spam messages boards like this, and vote the best rating for your movie on IMDB several time (what a crock!)

Uh- no thank you!

I wouldn't pay more than $100-200 for "Online Buzz"...
 
LOL!

I TOTALLY agree!

With PR Web and multiple other avenues there's no reason to pay that much for that service. I remember when they were talking about it, it would be a share type concept. But those prices are outrageous!

I guess that if someone had the money for that service, they may not be too struggling.

Emailing 14,000 people and making a couple fan sites and blah blah blah.... YES that will get a buzz... but is it a legitamite buzz?
I don't think so... you paid for the buzz and it would suck if it was found out to be false.


BUT they've been around for a few years and I know of one person that used them, so I don't know what the deal is... that's why I asked if anyone used them... For me, I would rather spent $30,000 on a couple of productions, not advertising.
 
I would not pay for that type of buzz either. Would love to try and create it though.

It's still very tough to get the word out when you don't have an advertising team or mindset.

Filmmakers need to partner with Marketing gurus before they even shoot a thing.

-Martin

Btw- My film 'Behind the Nine' is available currently at NETFLIX so if you're so inclined, put it in your queue and spread the word. Thanks.
 
In the UK Odeon cinemas now have digital projection which they use for subtitling features. It links into the surround sound and projects on the screen. We screened the DVD of 'Left For Dead' on the big screen (biggest in Sussex) to 500 people and I have to say (and I know this sounds odd) but the film looked BETTER on the big screen than it does on DVD on a HD ready LCD TV.

I don;t know WHY this was the case it should have been grainy but it wasn't.
 
I've read through all the posts. I'm intrigued by the concept, very much so. Some of the ideas are a bit too communal / arty to be realistic, but I'm thinking a couple of things:

1) This would only work as a franchise system. Setting up a franchise system takes care of most of the issues you guys are talking about in regards to renting houses, etc. You get the franchisee to purchase a theater or build one.

2) Format of the films would work perfectly well in a franchise system, the franchisee buys a good high-res LCD projector and a specific computer with a super-fast hard drive, and the films are downloaded off an FTP server in a high-def format.

3) Tickets are generated through a software system that the franchise company provides, and this keeps track of the tickets. When tickets are sold / printed, the corporate office knows about it and it's automatically entered into the accounting.

4) Like in a franchise system, money earned from ticket sales is distributed back to the filmmaker through the corporate office.

I'm definitely going to think through this some more. I know some VC people, this might actually be worth pursuing / building a business plan for.

You'd have to realize though, that in the franchise world, the corporate office only gets in about 10-15% royalties. In this case, the corporate office would also be supplying the product, so it could be possible for filmmakers to make some decent money off the concept through the ticket sales.

Then there's concessions, etc. A doable idea, definitely.
 
I'm glad you're here Ladd.

We've had a few chat sessions about this subject. Although the word franchise didn't come up, some of the discussions were talking about regional agents. I suppose those could be considered franchises.
This discussion starts up,, then dies, then starts up again. Then only a few joing in the chats.
I started working on contacting some major companies as well as local Chicagoland ones. Most were receptive to the idea of showing Indie Films.
In the short term, I started designing and working on distribution via internet/podcast. This will allow filmmakers another way to make money. Then the next phase would be theatrical release.
I'm down to get this topic on fire again and come to some REAL plan!
 
CootDog said:
In the short term, I started designing and working on distribution via internet/podcast. This will allow filmmakers another way to make money. Then the next phase would be theatrical release.
I'm down to get this topic on fire again and come to some REAL plan!

Hey Coot -

Well, I think there's some issues with doing distribution via internet/podcast. You have to think of the thing as a true business venture. When you go the Internet route, there's so many obstacles to actually making money (especially with the number of players already in the field) that you're not going to get very far, I fear.

I also think that approaching existing theater chains is a non-starter. Those guys have their own way of doing things and REAM you when it comes to renting out their space (as everyone's toe-dipping investigations have discovered).

No, I think the way to go is to set up a corporate franchise system that allows entrepreneurs to pay you a fee and put up their own money to build the space, buy the equipment, and hook into the distribution system. And the corporate office has to do a lot of work for them to make it worth their while. I've got some ideas on that. Been involved in a couple of franchise concepts before, I know how to lay the groundwork.

And on top of that, there needs to be a serious "hook" to the system, a serious catch that goes beyond just indie distribution of films or electronic distribution. It has to make money for that entrepreneur, after all. Indie filmmakers are a notoriously fickle bunch, and it wouldn't be the sort of thing that I think the indie filmmakers themselves could actually get up and going and keep running smoothly. They're busy doing their films, after all.

I think I'd be very interested in doing the business plan, getting the corporate side of it set up. The real trick is, there would need to be an angel investor to put up enough to launch the corporate side, build the prototype corporate "store," generate numbers to demonstrate to a franchisee that it would be worth their while, and so forth.

Franchises, when built properly, can get big very quickly and profitable very quickly.

I think it's very doable if an angel could be found to launch it and fund all of that groundwork.
 
Another alternative is to make a new C-Corp and get a bunch of low-dollar folks to purchase stock and be on the board of directors.

You can't sell shares very easily in the U.S. thanks to the S.E.C. being a pain in the butt. You have to qualify investors and spend an incredible amount of money on attorneys and what not to keep your nose clean. However, the founding members of a company don't have to be qualified, it can be regular joes like you and me.
 
You're talking about setting up your own theater? That seems a little much there!
I know what you mean about indiefilmmakers wanting to make their films and not having the time or resources to build a business. However, for me, I'm launching a business very soon and have 2 others ready to launch this year. I have always had my own business, ever since the age of 13.

As for the theaters, I have spoken to a few chains who were interested in this project. We never talked about money or anything, just interest and possiblilty. There was no talk about renting the theater space and paying them to show the film. It was more along the lines of a share % of the ticket sales.

I think that a corporate structure is good. I do not think that getting a large space, hundreds of chairs, sound equipment, lighting, screens, and projectors is the way to go. You're talking at least tens of thousands of dollars, PLUS a franchise fee.

Perhaps I'm not getting your concept, but if you want to write the business plan, or discuss it more, I'd love to.
 
Oh, theaters are not a big deal to build in existing space. But no, the corporate office would build only one. Franchisees build the rest.

You've almost got the concept, but not quite. I don't think a big theater is the way to go. Small ones, in retail space. And it wouldn't be a straight theater, either... not in the traditional sense.

Theater chains have other issues, most notably, you're competing with the big films. So it's the sort of thing that means you end up becoming a traditional film distributor with the twist of revenue sharing, if I understand you correctly. Some chains will do that, most won't. They're hurting enough as it is with revenue and attendance dropping exponentially. You'll end up nipping after them like a poodle at their heels. Most will likely express interest because they want to be nice guys, but most likely won't sign on the dotted line.

I'm not saying that what you're talking about won't work, but I think it's limiting and fraught with numerous risks. Depending upon those guys for income can be extremely dangerous. You're basically becoming a distributor, next to all the others, trying to get your product into their stores. And then you'll end up getting roped into the same issues that all distributors have, namely:

1) Who's in the film?
2) What's your marketing budget?
3) How much can you chip in on marketing?

And so on, same as every distributor. And you'll be dealing with technical hassles of interfacing with their systems. Some have electronic distribution, others don't, and the ones that do haven't settled down on a standardized system. Regal's got their own stuff, Cinema King's got another, etc. etc. The only thing that's standard for the chains is 35mm film, and that's too expensive for the indie.

Hmmm, I think I may very well write out this business plan. Tell you what, I'll PM you when I get it done.
 
I think you've got something there on the distribution method! What kind of bandwidth are you going to have for your web hosting company? Are you doing colocation and all that kind of thing or piggy-backing on someone else's datacenter? The reason I ask is because I co-founded a company called ResPower, which sold computing power over the Internet to 3D animation studios, like utilities sell electricity. When I was there I had to deal with data center issues. We had about 750 computers.

P.S. I'm quite serious about doing the business plan, and I will send you a copy of it for feedback. I think the system can definitely work if tweaked properly.
 
Right now we're co-lo with a company in San Jose, CA and they connect right into the backbone at the MAE West NAP.
We;re going to be getting our own racks, servers, and a 1gig pipe direct sometime in the near future. We have a few TBs of space right now.
 
No, I think the way to go is to set up a corporate franchise system that allows entrepreneurs to pay you a fee and put up their own money to build the space, buy the equipment, and hook into the distribution system. And the corporate office has to do a lot of work for them to make it worth their while. I've got some ideas on that. Been involved in a couple of franchise concepts before, I know how to lay the groundwork.

I think there is an inherrent flaw in the franchise option.

The advantage of a franchise to the franchisee is that they are buying into an established brand, that has been built by the home office. The customer looking for a McDonalds Big Mac can walk into any franchise in the world with a complete undertstanding of the product.

Even mainstream cinemas are currently stuggling to stay solvent and in terms of product they have all the well established, branded products.

Indie cinema distribution is niche rather than a mass market industry, you can't build a brand because each film has to be marketed as an individual product. The cinema space itself holds no inherrent brand values, and what value it does offer the customer is in providing a level of delivery that can't be reproduced at home.

The biggest problem is that the best indie product will always graviatate to traditional distribution methods, because it's the gateway to significant money and traditional distribution opens other doors.

Seriously, delivery isn't the issue -- it's product and marketing.

I've been looking at this issue for two years now and the truth is that in all that time no one has come to me with a even one film that I believed would support this kind of concept.

The only way I could see a cinema franchise working is if it offered a service to a specific niche audience -- so if someone was to get cinema distribution rights to all Manga Films and opened a chain of city Manga e-cinemas designed to cater to the specific needs of that client group, with an attached bookshop/DVD store. That's a possible franchise.

In many respects great franchises are like movies -- they need to be High Concept!
 
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Right Clive!

And that's why I started designing FilmPod/IndieFlics, to make a name. While the internet distribution works and becomes more recognizable, discussing contract negotiations with chains will commence.
Short films would be released in a feature length "Pod" to the theaters, as well as nicely made features.

But what you're saying is right, the films have to be the quality to be theater/cinema viewable. If we want the public to see indie films, they need to be as good as what they are used to.

I've done random surveys at theaters and most of the people I talked to, 85% to 90%, all said that they would more want to see an independent film. They say that they're just not available to them.

So we need to make them available.
 
clive said:
The only way I could see a cinema franchise working is if it offered a service to a specific niche audience -- so if someone was to get cinema distribution rights to all Manga Films and opened a chain of city Manga e-cinemas designed to cater to the specific needs of that client group, with an attached bookshop/DVD store. That's a possible franchise.

In many respects great franchises are like movies -- they need to be High Concept!

Believe it or not, we're actually on the same page there. I was thinking for my particular concept a bookshop/DVD/CD store, coffee, adult beverages, and a restaurant-as-theater.

There have been successfull theaters that have taken the restaurant concept to great effect. In fact I helped put one together in New Orleans a decade ago. It's long gone now, of course (Katrina).

This franchise would then show indie films, as well as showing older films, film festivals, that kind of thing.

I would also make it audience participatory. For instance, consider this concept:

A week long festival throughout all chains, in which audience members get to vote on their favorites. The winner of the festival gets a prize. Go for the whole "Idol" concept. The votes could even be tallied electronically after the films have shown (if you have an electronic distribution method, the votes could be shown on the big screen after the films).

And of course, you'd offer door prizes.

And you'd do the opposite of what most theaters do - one movie after another, pushing the audience in and out as quick as possible. I'd stick to one showing a night, and the rest of the evening is mingling and eating and drinking, and talking about the films.

So yes, high concept is the way to go. I'd call it "Critic's Corner", perhaps.

This, and more, I'm putting into the business plan.
 
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