Law firm will fight illegal downloadin of your movie for free

[Blade_Jones]

Anyone pissed that their movie is being GIVEN away on PirateBay? Well now a law firm will file a lawsuit for free on your behalf.

Virginia-based law firm Dunlap, Grubb, & Weaver is filing lawsuits against illegal downloaders.

The enterprising lawyers, under the operative the U.S. Copyright Group, seek out indie filmmakers and offer to sue anonymous movie pirates for no charge. The firm then subpoenas Verizon, AT&T and other ISPs to identify each John Doe user, and threatens to sue each person for $150,000 unless they agree to a $1,500 to $2,500 settlement fee, according to Ars Technica's Law & Disorder blog and Techdirt. Defendants can pony up the cash on a website set up to accept checks and credit cards.

http://www.abajournal.com/weekly/article/lawyers_poised_to_bank_millions_on_p2p_prosecution

 

[sonnyboo]

I give away my short films online for free on sites like YouTube and Vimeo. That's because they did not cost much to make and I am not beholding to any investors other than myself. I have no problem with giving those away for free.

When I make a feature film, there tends to be a lot more money involved and it's not my money to choose to give that away, especially since I promised the investors I would do everything I could to make their money back with profit. I gave my word, so if I have to sue a bunch of people who are illegally downloading to get the money, so be it. I would have preferred that they paid for the DVD rental or bought the disc, but since they are stealing and breaking the law, that's the price you pay.

Yes, if you want to give your feature away for free on a torrent site, that is your choice. Unfortunately, I was not given a choice. I do think it's a great way to get your movie seen and out there. I did not make a movie for pennies and I want to continue to make movies with money so I am out to make a profit with my features. Taking that choice out of my hands means I have to resort to suing with this law firm.

 

[2001 Productions]

I really do see this as a perception issue of those who have never had investors or have been responsible for amounts of money more than $10,000 in a single movie and those who are simply hobbyists that don't comprehend how much damage is being done to the film industry as a whole by illegal downloads. It doesn't affect you and you get something for free, so why worry about it? it's so short sighted in that when the big mega corporations lose even a chunk of their profits, they stop looking at small independent films... the very movies we all make... as an option and we ALL lose. That's fine if you make movies as a hobby and that's all it is to you, but I have a family to take care of and this is what I do to pay the rent and buy food.

AMEN TO THIS!

I had a conversation yesterday with an older guy who proudly stated that he no longer bothered going to the theater or video rental store because everything was available for cheap on NetFlix. In the next breath he complained that all of the movies were targeting kids anymore. It blew my mind that he was unable to see the correlation between these two statements.

I get this all the time. Despite all the behind-the-scenes stuff we're exposed to nowadays, people still think movies make themselves. After I asked him why - when people like him don't spend money on movies - would anyone make content for him, it began to dawn on him. A business that wants to survive produces product for the most profitable market - these days, that's kids.

Same thing with piracy. People reason that Avatar made a fortune anyway, so what's the big deal? Fine, Avatar made a fortune, but what about the thousands of other movies - like Sonnyboo's or mine - that didn't? If guys like us can't make ends meet we'll go out of business, in which case viewers can watch Avatar over and over and over because that's all that'll be available.

 

[M1chae1]

It's sad and exciting that our most popular film (NUN OF THAT) is being pirated like crazy every since it's national distro deal...

I have Google Alerts set on NUN OF THAT, and nearly every single alert is a list of it being pirated. Does this upset me? Yes and no. Am I an investor? Yes, but only slightly (in addition to my time and talent pro bono). I am 'invested'...that's for sure. Is the company losing money? Yes, I'm certain of it...would more legit sales make life easier on the company? Probably. Are they still making a profit? Yes. Is the director and producer (married couple) in financial need? No (the producer has a day job from home and things are fine).

One thing I *do* know is that we've received over a dozen glowing reviews from strangers around the world...some of these probably from torrenters...and this has from what I can deduce, raised our overall sales.

They are not getting rich off of this flick...but they are seeing a profit already, and it's partially exciting to know that hundreds upon hundreds of people are watching this every year.

One way to stay away from high stress...is to keep your investors minimal. This way you won't sweat bullets every time you get a torrent alert.

Look at the movie INK...tagged 'the most pirated indie film of all time'...and in this case it did great service to the movie...the attention it has received is massive! And for good reason, it's a fantastic indie film made by a husband and wife for practically peanuts. The pirating of INK caused a HUGE influx of legit sales...as well as press and publicity. Not everyone can be INK...but sometimes it does help.

One of the things my director friend is doing for our next feature is premiering it, and only doing screenings for two years after it's release. We aren't putting it out on DVD for two years! Is that a bold move? I kinda think so...will it stop piracy? Dead in its tracks. Will we lose sales? Yes, those two years there will be only ticket sales...is this a good idea? I'm not sure yet. lol. Our movies tend to do really well in theaters...our budgets are very low for the production value, so it's quite possible to break even on opening weekend alone. Still...holding off on DVD release for two years is a bold move, one I'm not sure I agree with yet.

Thanks.

 

[M1chae1]

Same thing with piracy. People reason that Avatar made a fortune anyway, so what's the big deal? Fine, Avatar made a fortune, but what about the thousands of other movies - like Sonnyboo's or mine - that didn't?

Are your movies fantastic? Are they great? Are they even good?

I'm not at all being an ass here, I'm being realistic. Let's be honest, the majority of indie work out there isn't that great, and lacks many of the production values that general audiences take for granted in Hollywood films. If you can't produce a movie that at least has solid production value, story, acting, and music...how do you pretend to compare to Avatar?

I'm not saying you need to spend millions to make a great and entertaining movie...in fact, I completely think opposite. But unless you can at least master the 'basics of filmmaking', you shouldn't be taking money from investors.

I'm just saying...

 

[2001 Productions]

Are your movies fantastic? Are they great? Are they even good?

I'm not at all being an ass here, I'm being realistic. Let's be honest, the majority of indie work out there isn't that great, and lacks many of the production values that general audiences take for granted in Hollywood films. If you can't produce a movie that at least has solid production value, story, acting, and music...how do you pretend to compare to Avatar?

I'm not saying you need to spend millions to make a great and entertaining movie...in fact, I completely think opposite. But unless you can at least master the 'basics of filmmaking', you shouldn't be taking money from investors.

I know you aren't being an ass. I get your point. Unfortunately, I think you missed my point.

Let's take me out of the equation altogether - and for that matter all low-budget indies - and just talk about bigger movies. Many years ago I went to the theater to see this big, expensive movie called Blade Runner. I was blown away; considered it one of the best movies I'd ever seen and recommended it to all my friends (who were teenagers at the time). Every one of them who went to see it thought it was boring and stupid and gave me no end of grief for recommending it. It did middling business and faded away. Then home video came of age and all of us who loved it bought a copy and eventually...well, let's just say that today I feel redeemed.

Now you may argue that had the Internet been in existence at the time it's popularity may have been greater, and you may be right. On the other hand, that movie would not be made today for the same reason my teenage friends hated it. It wasn't made for them. But that's the age group who pays for movies now. So is that reason enough to say that Blade Runner doesn't deserve to be made? I think it's fantastic, but I'm not a teenager who goes to movies to see stuff blow up. The producers that made Blade Runner would not consider piracy of their movie to be an acceptable alternative to ticket sales, so they simply don't put their money there at all.

I personally think Avatar was a good movie. But, let's face it, it's a "kid's" movie. It's got a simple plot, blue aliens, and lots of stuff blowing up. I liked it well enough, but don't want to watch it over and over and over. Blade Runner is more my thing. It's a good thing I enjoy watching that one over and over because I doubt I'll ever see its like again in my lifetime.

 

[M1chae1]

Hey, you're preaching to the choir...BR is my favorite movie of all time. I think BR *is* being made today...in one form or another. So many films steal from what BR did...they just don't have the finesse and vision.

It's odd that BR was a failure at the box office, and then when VHS came around, it turned into one of the biggest cult classics. That I don't get. A good movie is a good movie...yes it doesn't have to please everyone--and it won't--but for it to 'flop' at the box office makes no sense.

I recently showed my younger friend (he's early twenties, I'm 33) BR and he 'wasn't that impressed' with it. And he really disliked the VO version he saw. This is an actor buddy of mine who I really like, and who's opinion I admire...but then I remembered, this was the same dude that said the week before, 'I just watched Apocalypse Now and I didn't like it. I didn't care about any of the characters, and it was a typical war movie.' Ummmm....whuuu? I'm starting to doubt his opinion after these two judgement calls.

On a side note, I don't think Avatar is a 'kids movie.' It's definitely for all ages.

Oh and sorry I missed your point.

 

[sonnyboo]

it's a fantastic indie film made by a husband and wife for practically peanuts. The pirating of INK caused a HUGE influx of legit sales...

The key words here are "made practically for peanuts".... Of course piracy isn't an issue if you don't have any real money invested in it! If you spend tens of dollars and made a profit, whoo hoo! Congratulations, but you aren't making a living as a professional filmmaker. The situation is hardly comparable to filmmakers who put tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars into a feature film.

This does nothing to explain how it benefits the movies with a more professional budget to get put on torrent sites.

Are your movies fantastic? Are they great? Are they even good?

Is it possible to ask a more subjective question? Are people who disagree with your or my opinion of what is a great movie then wrong?

People have differing opinions of what is good and great and what sucks.

But unless you can at least master the 'basics of filmmaking', you shouldn't be taking money from investors.

I agree completely. That's why I am pretty comfortable taking money from investors. I don't work with hack no talent actors. I work with the best that I can find. I chose to work with crew that have more experience than me and make a better movie.

The answer can't always be "make a better movie for less money" because some stories cost more money to make. A period piece can't be done for the same price as a contemporary story. Building spaceship and doing the effects and costumes for a science fiction inherently cost more than a modern screwball comedy.

So, for my situation, being that my movie has exponentially more money at stake, I am going to sue every torrent user without exception that I can get to. Whatever it takes to reclaim some of this money we lost, and I will be happy to do it.

 

[2001 Productions]

I think BR *is* being made today...in one form or another. So many films steal from what BR did...they just don't have the finesse and vision.

I disagree that it's being made today. Many filmmakers try to emulate Ridley's style, yes, but the sophisticated, slow-paced adult plot is a thing of the past. Ridley Scott made it visually stunning, but the script gave it weight.

On a side note, I don't think Avatar is a 'kids movie.' It's definitely for all ages.

That's what I mean. It's kept simple for kids, like 99% of studio movies now. And I'm not talking about young kids, but the all-important 14-24yo demographic. I compared it with BR because, though both were sci-fi, the latter was definitely NOT for kids. It required thought, there were no battle scenes and nothing blew up.

Name me a recent sci-fi movie from a studio that compares and I'll rush right out to see it.

 

[M1chae1]

Sonny - When I say 'practically peanuts'...I'm talking under 100K...I'd say the film (at completion of marketing and promo) cost around 60K...that's just a guess. That's a definite investment, wouldn't you say?

2001 - Of course there isn't anything similar to BR today...that's why it's a classic...a masterpiece. Movies like that don't come around that often...decades maybe. And books like 'Do Androids Dream...' don't come around too often either...as loose as the relationship is, it's still there. I could, however, name you dozens of films influenced by BR (including anime)...adult, thought provoking sci-fi...but none that reach the level of sophistication that BR possesses.

 

[2001 Productions]

We're still talking at cross-purposes here, and I think that's my fault for not stating my case clearly. I didn't mean to derail the conversation with my Blade Runner example, so I'll throw some other of my favorite titles into the mix: The French Connection, Chinatown, All the President's Men, and The Name of the Rose. I'd be willing to bet that you could not get a studio to produce any of these scripts today. Not enough action and too much thought required for today's moviegoing audience.

That's not to say there isn't an audience for them - quite the contrary, I think there's a huge audience hungry for that kind of material. But they don't go to theaters to see them anymore, which is why the studios won't touch them. So that leaves the independents. But in order to make a profit the budgets have to be low enough that they can recoup via nontheatrical means. Except many nontheatrical avenues of distribution are being put out of business by NetFlix, Red Box and Internet piracy. Producers make little if anything from these, so how are they supposed to recoup?

As a result, I think we're going to see ever fewer intelligent, sophisticated films produced in this country. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[M1chae1]

Not really 2001...I get what you're saying. And I both disagree, and agree...

I don't think the reason we're not seeing a new Blade Runner is because of the formula the studios are currently following, purely for market and profit.

Moon is a big budget film...is it an independent? Yes and no...was it a box office smash? No, but it definitely received accolades all around. That is a smart man's, sci-fi sleeper hit. They are out there...you just have to look.

 

[sonnyboo]

Sonny - When I say 'practically peanuts'...I'm talking under 100K...I'd say the film (at completion of marketing and promo) cost around 60K...that's just a guess. That's a definite investment, wouldn't you say?

Again, that's not that much money compared to other indie films.

I feel a moral obligation to the cast and crew, just as much as investors. Some of them work for deferred pay, and I think it would make me dishonest if I promised to work hard to get them money then did NOT pursue the people downloading the movies. By stealing and not paying for the movie, and creating obstacles for us to even generate revenue, I am representing about 240-260 people who worked on the film, not just me.

 

[M1chae1]

You're going to kill yourself trying to fight your movie being pirated. How much time to money saved is that going to balance out to? It's not worth it...at least not with our internet set up right now.

You only have so much control Sonny. You can use that time elsewhere to make the money you 'promised' your cast and crew through deferred contracts back...perhaps by seeking distribution from a respectable company...perhaps setting up a booth at a conference and selling DVDs...

Fighting piracy is a waste of time in this day and age...stop one person, and two more spring up. If your movie is popular on the torrent stream...don't bother building a dam...it will only overflow.

If this company wants to do this for free...and they have the means...go for it I say. But the filmmaker themselves can't...

 

[2001 Productions]

Moon is a big budget film...is it an independent? Yes and no...was it a box office smash? No, but it definitely received accolades all around. That is a smart man's, sci-fi sleeper hit. They are out there...you just have to look.

Hadn't heard of Moon but will definitely check it out on your recommendation.

I just looked it up on imdb. Budget was approx. $5 million - not exactly big budget, couldn't even come close to making Blade Runner with that.

Domestic box office gross was $5,009,677. When you consider a film has to make 3 times its budget just to break even, they didn't even come close. Would you invest in that film? Do you think its investors might think twice next time? Just sayin'...

 

[sonnyboo]

Domestic box office gross was $5,009,677. When you consider a film has to make 3 times its budget just to break even, they didn't even come close. Would you invest in that film? Do you think its investors might think twice next time? Just sayin'...

Yes they might... because that was DOMESTIC BOX OFFICE take... not worldwide theatrical, home video, Cable TV rights, broadcast TV rights, Video On Demand rights, and each of those for sale in each territory world wide. You don't know how much money it did make overall.

Now, every single one of these outlets for revenue has seen a dramatic decrease in profit since the illegal downloads. The people who steal movies online are destroying the very industry we are trying to make a living at. It's self destruction for a filmmaker to illegally download a movie. It's cutting off your arms and complaining you can't row the boat. Then telling people there's nothing you can do and just live without arms while you work on a rowboat.

 

[2001 Productions]

that was DOMESTIC BOX OFFICE take... not worldwide theatrical, home video, Cable TV rights, broadcast TV rights, Video On Demand rights, and each of those for sale in each territory world wide. You don't know how much money it did make overall.

Yeah, I'm well aware of that. I assumed that was understood, but probably should have been more specific.

Now, every single one of these outlets for revenue has seen a dramatic decrease in profit since the illegal downloads. The people who steal movies online are destroying the very industry we are trying to make a living at.

This is exactly the point I've been trying to make, but apparently am doing a crappy job of it so I think I'll just STFU now.

 

[Kosh]

Stealing is stealing. Piracy is piracy. To justify it by quantifying or measuring the value of what is being stolen misses the point and kills the argument, as it is still theft, stealing - plain and simple.

I am a hobbyist at the moment with an eye to going pro some day (by that I mean make some money off of movies) but personally, I like the YouTube and Vimeo route for getting exposure. Torrents may get you some fame but at what cost to you and your fellow movie makers? This isn't a one man's (person's) poison type of arguement, this is an every man's (person's) poison scenario (poisoned well if you will) as it's just a matter of time before this catches up to us all. So guess what happens when it's your time to make some money and this theft is left unchecked and unchallenged?

I am trying to stay away from my soapbox of the abuse of technology and all, but how the increased ease to steal something makes the act of theft justifiable is one that baffles me. Guess I'm too old school.

 

[Gohanto]

Stealing is stealing. Piracy is piracy. To justify it by quantifying or measuring the value of what is being stolen misses the point and kills the argument, as it is still theft, stealing - plain and simple.

So you would consider someone who pulls on a mask, robs a gas station and takes the purses of little old ladies to be the same "stealing" that a 16 year old kid does when he wants to see an indie movie that isn't available to buy anywhere?

There is the grand assumption that people seem to believe that any music or movie downloaded is a sale lost. That's completely absurd. For example: Avatar is simultaneously the highest grossing, highest BluRay selling, and most pirated movie in history. Lots of people actually pay to see the movie after or before downloading it.

If someone downloads an indie movie, then they pay to buy the DVD when it becomes available, that's still stealing? Same BS lawsuit?

Slamming lawsuits on every downloader is what the music industry tried and it doesn't work. All it accomplishes is satisfying the "American way" of slamming down as many BS lawsuits as humanly possible.

Granted, movie piracy needs to stop, but lawsuits are the God awful way to go about it, piss people off, and not really accomplish anything.
Go after movie cameras in theaters, and get better copy protection on DVDs.

 

[sonnyboo]

So you would consider someone who pulls on a mask, robs a gas station and takes the purses of little old ladies to be the same "stealing" that a 16 year old kid does when he wants to see an indie movie that isn't available to buy anywhere?

YES! Theft is theft.

If this would be the defense in court, then I would be extremely happy because they would be admitting to committing a crime. This is no different than arguing that shooting someone in the knee caps is a lesser crime than killing someone.... they are both still crimes and both clearly illegal.

I think you all are misunderstanding still the severity of what downloads has done to the movie industry. For someone to see a movie before buying the DVD meant seeing it in the theater, on TV, or renting it. All of those PAID before the illegal torrent downloads. You are trying to justify this as free advertisement, but it's really just theft of these lost revenues, which in turn makes our industry as a whole less profitable.

 

[Blade_Jones]

You're going to kill yourself trying to fight your movie being pirated. How much time to money saved is that going to balance out to? It's not worth it...at least not with our internet set up right now.

You don't have to spend ANY money on lawyers. There are firms that will represent you for free now.
If you have to fight an infringing torrent you can foul things up by posting decoy torrents until it becomes like finding a needle in a haystack. With indie movie's it's very doable.

Lots of people actually pay to see the movie after or before downloading it.

This is old rhetoric. I know people who download and nobody is ever later paying for the stuff they download. And most indie movies are a "let down" so there is even less chance to actually make a sale. Again, a trailer worked wonders for years getting people to pay for movies.

a 16 year old kid does when he wants to see an indie movie that isn't available to buy anywhere

Our discussion is about current movies -- Not old movies that are not available. 16 year old kids, college kids, and adults alike all know that it's illegal.

The bottom line is that with a resurgence of lawsuits people are going to second guess whether it's worth the risk of downloading something when they may get fined $2,500. Word gets around fast.

If the producers of "Hurt Locker" get only 1/2 of the defendants to settle out of court for $2,500 then that's an extra 6.25 million dollars. If they split that, then they pocket over 3 million. The odds of just breaking even making an indie film are so rare that this can be a viable source of revenue.