Is the director being unfair to me?

[harmonica44]

I am helping a friend shoot her feature film. Just so their is no confusion this is not the same person who I am acting in a short film in that I mentioned in another post. I am doing the production audio for a friend cause I owe her a favor for help she has given me before. She couldn't find a PSM/boom op, so she is using me.

But she doesn't give me any storyboards before a shoot. She is in constant contact with the DP and they have meetings all the time. The DP tells me so, and I go to him for storyboards, cause all she does is send emails saying I need to be here in two days, or be there tomorrow. That's all she gives me. I feel I could use the same treatment so it will help me record sound better. Especially since I am not a PSM at all, so I don't think it's asking too much. Otherwise I have no time to creatively prepare how to work around the shots.

I also do not know which scenes we are shooting when she emails shoot dates to me. She will describe the scene to me, but the script is not written in screenplay form. It's written just like a novel and their are no scene headings or nothing so it makes it very complicated to know which scene, when I have to do a shoot with little notice or time to prepare.

What do you think? I guess I am just venting but it is frustrating.

 

[Sweetie]

Okay thanks, but they do not include me on the location scout either. I don't know where I am going until the shoot day, when they give me the location so far. The last shoot, the location was very noisy, and if I had been to the location or was told about the noise beforehand, that would have helped me to tell them to pick a different place if they could.

Sound people are often not brought to location scouts. What's weird and something I'm not sure if I agree with, I've been taught not to bring a sound guy along to the recce due to budget reasons.

Though, I can imagine a sound guy on a recce. You get to the end of the day and the sound guy have put in his veto on every location. Virtually every location has noise. Some locations make it logistically a poor choice due to delays in shooting for sound (near a busy airport or in a busy flightpath, on a busy main road, industrial construction area etc)

 

[Alcove Audio]

I've been taught not to bring a sound guy along to the recce due to budget reasons.

Though, I can imagine a sound guy on a recce. You get to the end of the day and the sound guy have put in his veto on every location. Virtually every location has noise. Some locations make it logistically a poor choice due to delays in shooting for sound (near a busy airport or in a busy flightpath, on a busy main road, industrial construction area etc)

Yes, most locations have a sound problem of some sort or another. There are "acceptable" and unacceptable sound problems, and professionals can make an informed decision, knowing which sounds are easier to deal with in audio post. The issue is the time and day of the week. In my neighborhood we are in the flight path of a regional airport. The worst hours (but not really that bad) are 7-9 am and 4-7 pm Monday through Friday, mostly small jets, one or two an hour. But forget about shooting around here on weekends. The jets are sporadic, but the weekend flyers are out en masse in their Cessnas and such.

 

[harmonica44]

Well tonights shoot went bad for sound. It was narrow hallway, and I couldn't even get in the with the boom with shots they wanted cause the hallway was not long enough to for me to be out of the shot, nor was it wide enough for me to hide either. I had to have the mic really far away and it sounded crappy. The director told me that it's okay and we will do ADR if we have to and it's not a problem. She said she was much more concerned getting the video right for post. Well what kind of stupid response is that, since sound matters just as much!

As far as saving money I am doing it for free, so I don't think that bringing me along on location scouts should be an excuse if you want to get it done right, in the so very little time we are allotted in these locations. But she will learn the hardway once she gets the final sound product I guess.

 

[ChimpPhobiaFilms]

Well tonights shoot went bad for sound. It was narrow hallway, and I couldn't even get in the with the boom with shots they wanted cause the hallway was not long enough to for me to be out of the shot, nor was it wide enough for me to hide either. I had to have the mic really far away and it sounded crappy. The director told me that it's okay and we will do ADR if we have to and it's not a problem. She said she was much more concerned getting the video right for post. Well what kind of stupid response is that, since sound matters just as much!

As far as saving money I am doing it for free, so I don't think that bringing me along on location scouts should be an excuse if you want to get it done right, in the so very little time we are allotted in these locations. But she will learn the hardway once she gets the final sound product I guess.

ADR would be much better decision if you cannot fit in a boom mic. Had you thought about using a lav?

I don't think her statement is necessary "stupid". Sound does matter a lot, but that does not necessarily mean it has to be done on set. Sound can be done in post.

If she gets good post-audio people, I don't think it will turn out horribly.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Well tonights shoot went bad for sound. It was narrow hallway... I had to have the mic really far away and it sounded crappy.

That's why there needs to be a really long boom-pole in your arsenal.

 

[Sweetie]

WAs far as saving money I am doing it for free, so I don't think that bringing me along on location scouts should be an excuse if you want to get it done right, in the so very little time we are allotted in these locations. But she will learn the hardway once she gets the final sound product I guess.

If you're taught not to do it on paid sets, you'd usually not do it on unpaid sets unless you put some further thought into it. Were you in on the process during the recce? Was there even a recce?

There are more costs than just labor costs of the sound person involved. There is also the sanity costs to the director, dp, transport costs, food costs and so on. Perhaps they already knew what you were like and made sure you weren't there.

As for that Hallway, as Chimp suggested, a lav mic may have been a suitable option. I presume that there was a scene description of Hallway in the script? If so, I assume you had ample opportunity to ask about the issues with sound before you got to set to come up with a solution. Good professionals are proactive problem solvers. Do you fit into that category or are you always finding a reason why it's being done wrong and your way is right?

Something you have to realize, that while your job is important, it's not the only piece of the puzzle. It's important to play your part AND it is also important to be a team player and work towards the goals of the production. The last thing you want is to be "That guy" who is always the kill joy, the one who sucks the life out of the room, the one that is so difficult to work with, people pass on your work for free offer. The cast and crew are there to work towards achieving the directors goal, not making their life a living hell. I see the wording of some of your posts where it looks like you feel you're the victim. There are plenty of issues on each and every production. There's no reason that you have to put so much effort into making sure you're one of those problems.

Oh, Alcove, don't get me wrong. I think the the PSM should come along for the Recce. There are the occasional issue that could be easily avoided with an experienced ear and some gear, "Just to be sure". I was just taught the other way around, that's all.

 

[harmonica44]

No there were no recces of any kind. I had a really long boom pole but it was still scene in the shots she wanted. I could have made arrangements to get a lav had I known about the location beforehand. It didn't say long narrow hallway in the script, it said apartment building.

As far as saying I need to much help from the director, the director did not go about getting a professional. So if I am not equipped enough, well I think that's fair, since she got me, instead of someone with much more experience. So I don't think I am out of line, when I ask to be told of things beforehand, since I am no pro and just trying to help.

I don't think I am the victim at all, she is. She is victimizing herself but not getting pros do a whole feature and the whole thing is going to suffer because of it. I am concerned about the movie, not myself as a victim.

 

[Sweetie]

I don't think I am the victim at all, she is. [snip] I am concerned about the movie, not myself as a victim.

Is the director being unfair to me?

Really?

 

[ChimpPhobiaFilms]

I don't think I am the victim at all, she is. She is victimizing herself but not getting pros do a whole feature and the whole thing is going to suffer because of it. I am concerned about the movie, not myself as a victim.

Really? You were complaining a lot earlier about how you think you think you are being treated unfairly, etc, etc, etc. That's the reason you started this thread.

How is she victimizing herself? Can you (truthfully) tell us?

She doesn't necessarily need pros for everything during production. But she needs smart people.

Can you afford a lav? What's your budget?

 

[Alcove Audio]

No there were no recces of any kind. I had a really long boom pole but it was still scene in the shots she wanted. I could have made arrangements to get a lav had I known about the location beforehand. It didn't say long narrow hallway in the script, it said apartment building..

Then you have to adapt as best you can. Get creative.

Did you pay attention to the framing? If the characters are seen from the waist up you can use a very short boom or a pistol grip, sit or even lay on the floor, and "boom" from underneath; not optimum, but much better than from a far distance. Do anything you can to get the mic closer.

Was there anyplace for a plant mic?

BTW, did you ask for off-camera dialog wilds? As a dialog editor I like them a lot; they are often much better than ADR.

You have to learn to solve your own problems. Yes, there are "rules" for optimum results, but rules - like pie crusts - are made to be broken.

 

[harmonica44]

She's hurting herself because she refused to hold out for a real PSM or DP, and just got friends, who do not know about it, since she is hoping to get distribution with this feature film in progress.

I could get a lav techinically, but since I am not a PSM nor planning on it, I don't plan on using one. I mean I was told before not to buy any more equipment cause it will be a waist in the future since future PSMs have those things anyway. And it's true. Why would I buy all this stuff on my own when I plan on hiring people who are good in their profession and would have those things? So I feel she needs to get a real PSM and DP, not friends, who maybe should buy more equipment but are not good enough to use it anyway.

As for finding creative solutions, yeah I thought of quite a few solutions, but we only had two hours of shoot time, so it was too late to try any of the solutions. They only had to time to get the actors in and out, without really resolving the problems.

The shots they wanted to do, I would be seen in the narrow hallway, no matter how long the boom was. I would just be seen further in the backround. The only solution I can think of would be to make a boom that bent at a 90 degree angle, so I would be around the corner of the hallway, out of frame. The boom without being able to see the actors, accept through a mirror or something, but you would still see the mirror likely. But I didn't have time to build and try this possible invention in two hours.

By 'plant mic', I assume planting the mic somewhere and have it aimed at the actor? We did do that. But the actor kept moving and the mic's pick up pattern kept becoming off axis. I tried some wild dialogue in the time I had, but it does not match up to the video takes at all so far.

I do admire how the director manages to do a whole scene shoot in two hours though. Get in, get out before the location closes.

 

[Sweetie]

She's hurting herself because she refused to hold out for a real PSM or DP, and just got friends, who do not know about it, since she is hoping to get distribution with this feature film in progress.

I do admire how the director manages to do a whole scene shoot in two hours though. Get in, get out before the location closes.

She may get distribution. Maybe not theatrical, but distribution may still be possible. Who knows? She may already have some plans worked out.

For time, it sometimes depends on the scenes in question. You have only 3 crew, so there's no real coordination, no question on who is responsible for what and so on, and it sounds like limited equipment. I've been on sets where you may say, "2 hours for this" and the crew will look at you behaving like a lunatic, putting unreasonable time constraints on them. On other sets "2 hours boys" and they look at you wondering why it'd take that long.

Some directors are simply quick and decisive. Others can be painfully slow to make their decisions. Experience and preparation can help too.

 

[Caidh Mor]

She's hurting herself because she refused to hold out for a real PSM or DP, and just got friends

I could get a lav techinically, but since I am not a PSM nor planning on it, I don't plan on using one.

Harm, it quite honestly sounds like you're on the verge of INTENTIONALLY sabotaging your friend. If you REALLY don't care THAT MUCH, but REALLY want to help her, then you should have just helped find a PSM/sound tech that would work for free. You'll probably get someone relatively low on experience, but you might have gotten someone who at least CARED.

 

[harmonica44]

I posted an add for one before and will post again. My friend can never come up with shootdates that far ahead of time. It's already only a few days in advance. If I am not working that day, and my job does not depend on it, I can do it. But a lot of PSMs willing to work for free, became uninterested when they couldn't get far enough notice on the shoot dates. I can try looking again. I don't mean to sabotage her. I want to help.

I saw some of rough cuts from the feature so far. It's okay, but she has broken an angle rule in the editing. A lot of times the editor will cut from a master shot, to a closer up master shot, but they are from virtually the same angle and only a few feet apart, like five feet. This makes it look like a jump cut when it it's not and suppose to be continuous dialogue.

The editor does this frequently throughout. Usually in movies the master shot is taken from one angle, and then close up shots are from different ones, but this movie, the closer up shots are not that much closer up, and the camera is only moved five feet, and very much in the same spot. To the point where it looks like an unmatching jump cut.

I didn't notice this during shooting, and thought the DP probably zoomed in further all those times. But it looks like the camera is in the same place, and has only zoomed in a few feet at most. There is sort of a rule that if you cut to a close up, taken from the angle, it has be to like 10-15 feet closer or something more. Cause five or less feet, does not look that much different and feels like a jump cut when it's not.

Maybe this is okay though. I mean Bonnie and Clyde (1967), broke the 30 degree rule I was told, and all movies started breaking that rule afterwords and it was fine. So maybe the director has come up with a new rule to break, in a good way, and others will follow, if successful. I care though, and am just worried audiences might not agree with it.

 

[MileCreations]

H44, you're neither the DP or editor, so you don't need to worry about those things. Just worry about your sound stuff

 

[harmonica44]

Yeah I know. It would just be nice knowing I could devote my time to a movie, that will not turn out to be a complete waist of time in quality, cause the producer did not hire pros, nor does he/she take the advice of their crew. So far they have been duds.

 

[Sweetie]

It would just be nice knowing I could devote my time to a movie, that will not turn out to be a complete waist of time in quality, cause the producer did not hire pros...

Think of it like this: If the producer only hired pros, you wouldn't be there. You gotta pay your dues.

 

[Alcove Audio]

It would just be nice knowing I could devote my time to a movie, that will not turn out to be a complete waist of time

It's not a waste of time if you've learned something. Have you learned anything during this shoot?









This is a completely rhetorical question as far as Harmonica is concerned; I doubt he's learned anything. After all, he hasn't learned anything from the responses to his 4,000+ posts....

 

[harmonica44]

To be perfectly humbly honest, I have not learned anything during the shoot, accept for maybe how to do get a scene done very quickly. That's helpful in the microbudget world since most location owners want you in and out, and so far the shoots themselves, have only been 3 hours max, not including set up.

But they are doing things wrong. Like they are shooting in 60 fps, then converting to 24 fps in post, rather than just shoot 24 to begin with and have it look more natural. They also want to crop the movie down to a 2.35:1 aspect ratio, but are shooting in 16:9 with no crop marks on the cameras to guide them. In post they are also cropping it wrong. They are compressing the image, squishing it down. The actors heads look a little wider than they should be. Instead of actually putting black bars over top of the image.

I suggested to the director and DP that that's how you do it, but they said than they would loose pixels and it would no longer be HD.

The sound also went bad on a few shoots, cause they never plan for it on their locations, and most of the movie, if not all, will have to be ADR.

 

[ChimpPhobiaFilms]

To be perfectly humbly honest, I have not learned anything during the shoot, accept for maybe how to do get a scene done very quickly. That's helpful in the microbudget world since most location owners want you in and out, and so far the shoots themselves, have only been 3 hours max, not including set up.

Well, that's incredibly important to know how to do. A huge problem with indie directors is not being able to shoot fast enough.

But they are doing things wrong. Like they are shooting in 60 fps, then converting to 24 fps in post, rather than just shoot 24 to begin with and have it look more natural.

1. It's not necessary to shoot on 24fps.
2. They probably have a reason.
3. Why should you care?

They also want to crop the movie down to a 2.35:1 aspect ratio, but are shooting in 16:9 with no crop marks on the cameras to guide them. In post they are also cropping it wrong. They are compressing the image, squishing it down. The actors heads look a little wider than they should be. Instead of actually putting black bars over top of the image.

Well that's not your responsibility. Do your job, and let them do theirs.

I suggested to the director and DP that that's how you do it

NO.

Look, most of the time the director is doing what he/she is doing for a reason. If they want to do ADR, shoot on 60fps, or crop the image strangely, that's their decision. You should not be telling them the "proper way to do things". One of the greatest qualities you can have is getting along on set and doing what the director tells you to do.

You can also learn from their mistakes. If you see them do something wrong, write it down, and remember not to do that yourself when making a film.